888 / Uffiliates Add Predatory Terms

[joeyl]

In all seriousness now, I am of course, not against an anti blackhat forum as such, and the shining of the light on such behaviour. White hat, grey hat & black hat all make for interesting reading. Maybe i'm a geek these days. These techniques are usually a variation on a theme, and don't change much.

What is unacceptable, for me, is each and very webmaster here having to collectively waste an hour a week or more unpaid, each helping 888 (for example) clean up thier flaws.

Surely a decent clicktrack system with a rigourous sign up process and vetting procedure, ongoing, is 888's etc responsibility as a whole, not thier staffers Niko and the like, or indeed yours or mine to instigate and follow through on Michael.

Every time there's talk, it's revolves around the good guy affs deincentivising the bad guy affs through the pocket, when the real solution is genuine responsible operator conduct from the paymaster.

It's all the wrong way around i'm afraid.

It won't be the first thing on "mind the Gap's" agenda, that's for sure.

[Dominique]

Yes, there was actually a bit of tag-team work on that one. I received a copy of the e-mail from Casino Meister naming the site that stole the content (which I new about from our discussion) along with the new information that 888 was one of the casinos being promoted on that site. So I forwarded the newsletter to Miko at Uffiliates.

I was actually very pleased with the response I got. Within an hour he wrote back to me that he had referred the matter to the 888 fraud department, and that he was going to follow-up with Bryan to get more details so the matter could be properly settled.

I've had more back and forth with Miko since that time, and I've been very pleased to be talking to someone at 888 in a position of responsibility that really does seem to care about these matters.

I know there is a lot of history from the past here, and Miko seems to understand that, and be willing to take action to demonstrate those issues really are history. So please, if you know of any sites that are using stolen content to profit off the work of other webmasters using 888 or other unethical practices, take advantage of the fact that 888 would like to demonstrate to us a commitment to taking the appropriate action.

Michael

Just wanted to update this (it doesn't really belong in this thread, I know)

But Canbet also took action ( THANK YOU!!!!!! ), and surprisingly, so did godaddy:


The site is offline:

www.red-bet.com :


Forbidden
You don't have permission to access / on this server.

Additionally, a 403 Forbidden error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request.
Apache/1.3.33 Server at AppStuff Port 80

Godaddy did this:

:
Dear xxxxx,

Thank you for contacting Go Daddy. We have suspended the site in question pending a resolution. Please allow up to 30 minutes for these changes to take effect.

Please be aware that we are not a court, nor are we required to determine who, if anyone, actually owns the content in question. We have provided the specifics of your infringement claim to the owner of the site, along with your contact information, since the most efficient resolution of this situation comes through mutual communication between the 2 parties involved.

If the site owner indicates they are ready to remove the infringing content, we will re-activate the hosting account in order to allow that to happen. If they complete a counter-notification on the work(s) in question, according to the Copyright Dispute Policy, a copy of the notification will be sent to you. The site will then be re-activated 10 days following receipt of the counter-notification by us unless we receive official notice that you have initiated court proceedings. If we do receive such official notice, the website will remain down according to the request of the court(s) at that time.

If you have specific questions about the actions we have taken, please let us know.

Thank you,


Copyright Claims Department
GoDaddy.com
CopyrightClaims@GoDaddy.com

[Viriatu]

What is unacceptable, for me, is each and very webmaster here having to collectively waste an hour a week or more unpaid, each helping 888 (for example) clean up their flaws.

Surely a decent clicktrack system with a rigourous sign up process and vetting procedure, ongoing, is 888's etc responsibility as a whole, not thier staffers Niko and the like, or indeed yours or mine to instigate and follow through on Michael.

A program having almost 100% top ten online casino related terms will not find the need to sharpen up or respect all including the smalish average joe affiliate, and i dont think they will feel pressured.
What i think is we cant just fight back because not all the worlds affiliates post or register in GPWA and with the poker world going multi cultural\lingual poor economy placed webmasters will do a lot more to gain a buck blackhatish or not, and they will promote 888 holdings anyways. so even blacklisting it, for the most comum user on the net using msn live search or other not so selective search engine, this means very litle and 888 will always have serps and representation. So they are making money whille we waste hours improving and directing trafic to them, and they invest in new webmasters not so aware untill they dry out and move on.

Also Michael i dont think its possbile any aff program in the world "not be in touch" or not taking a special interest on a reference site like casino city, im pretty sure some are more equal than others... i mean you have to be aware that in such a big program not all affiliates receive the same degree of dedication...
my 2 cents on this matter...

[joeyl]

You hit the nail on the head Vinatu.

888 affs have pulled every stroke out there, and will continue to do so, as long as 888 pay them. If they vet their affs properly, then it will stop, not until.

888 staffer Niko alone can only do so much. It's up to 888 to come out and officially authorise what Niko wants to do. Or is the latest 888 guy posting here officially speaking for 888 as a whole?

[lots0]

I haven't seen a SINGLE instance of 888 or it's white labels slowing down the email SPAM or the blackhat SEO in the search engines...

Looks to me like once a 888 spammer is outted, 888 closes the Spammers account and then lets the spammer open another new account...

I don't think it is any surprise at all that 888 responds in positive way to Michael in public, a very public high profile webmaster that owns a webmasters forum and a high ranking casino rating site and is one of their bigger affiliates.

Just for fun I sent a complaint to 888 about SPAM from a generic email address three weeks ago, I even sent a follow up a week later... and surprise surprise no one at 888 even bothered to respond to my generic SPAM complaint or the follow up.

So from my perspective, all these stories about 888 doing the right thing are just BS propaganda...

I want to see real action from 888, not just have them (and their partners/affiliates) trying to run a public relations scam on affiliates.

[pgaming]

I haven't seen a SINGLE instance of 888 or it's white labels slowing down the email SPAM or the blackhat SEO in the search engines...

Looks to me like once a 888 spammer is outted, 888 closes the Spammers account and then lets the spammer open another new account...

I don't think it is any surprise at all that 888 responds in positive way to Michael in public, a very public high profile webmaster that owns a webmasters forum and a high ranking casino rating site and is one of their bigger affiliates.

Just for fun I sent a complaint to 888 about SPAM from a generic email address three weeks ago, I even sent a follow up a week later... and surprise surprise no one at 888 even bothered to respond to my generic SPAM complaint or the follow up.

So from my perspective, all these stories about 888 doing the right thing are just BS propaganda...

I want to see real action from 888, not just have them (and their partners/affiliates) trying to run a public relations scam on affiliates.

This has happened before; a program donated precedes from ill-gotten scum buckets webmasters to charity. For myself this was a move I seldom see, outstanding IMO!

I am sure most of heard recently the daycare fire that happened in Hermosillo, Mexico. Fire broke out in a daycare centre killing roughly 41 children. According to reports one father drove his pick up truck through the wall to save his child. Imagine 41 lives changed forever, gone in seconds notice. Need not say more…

So I wonder how far 888 are willing to go to fix a tarnished image? I always believed programs should never profit from those who violate their T&C’s. I wonder if 888 would donate the proceeds/ earnings to charity, assuring all of us justice was administered.

I personally dislike 888 and most of their so-called white hat affiliates. If they just gave a listening ear and took proactive measures as mentioned I would be cool with that. IMO this would be a priceless!

One can never go wrong helping those less fortunate, a moral imperative I suppose.

Just a thought okay back to my weekend.

greek39

[Integrity]

I don't mean to be patronistic to anyone, but is any of this that big a surprise to you guys? The actions of 888 --- and their apathy to concerns other than their own --- should come as no shock to anyone with an ounce of sence or experience in this industry.

Look, Ufiiliates or 888 or whatever they are calling themselves these days is looking out for themselves first, formost, and exclusively. Anyone who is fooled by their "new affiliate manager" routine or pulled into their web and a "new attitude" bullshit will most likely regret it in the end.

The truth is that none of the affiliates who make a good income with them will ever stop promoting them unless that income dries up... even if they got a few grand shaved off here and there. And 888 won't seriously stop spammers because they make way too much from them. They believe that --- in the end --- affiliates won't matter anyways in a new regulated industry. So where's the incentive to work with us? Just appease us long enough to shut us up and get by.

I've been saying these things for years about 888, but nothing has ever happened... and nothing ever will. Why? Affiliates cannot stay motivated or angry long enough to actually punish programs like 888, and 888 doesn't care two craps enough to change --- there is no motivation to do so --- because it's just too damned profitable to keep things the way they are.

Sorry to be so pesemistic, my friends, but stop fooling yourselves and just realize that this is the way it is.

[lots0]

I know that is the way it is J. Todd... But I don't have to like it...

And I am sure as hell not going to sit back quietly and take the crap 888 is dealing out.

[Integrity]

...I am sure as hell not going to sit back quietly and take the crap 888 is dealing out.

Nor should you take it, my friend.

Please realize that --- although my post was directed to affiliates --- I know that there are many non-affiliates reading what I wrote, as well. It's good that they know we're not just dumb sheep being led to slaughter.

[joeyl]

I've been saying these things for years about 888, but nothing has ever happened... and nothing ever will. Why? Affiliates cannot stay motivated or angry long enough to actually punish programs like 888, and 888 doesn't care two craps enough to change --- there is no motivation to do so --- because it's just too damned profitable to keep things the way they are.

Sorry to be so pesemistic, my friends, but stop fooling yourselves and just realize that this is the way it is.

But 888 operate to internationally accepted standards i'm told.

[Integrity]

But 888 operate to internationally accepted standards i'm told.

What "accepted standards" are those? The only one that would actually matter for the purpose of your statement would be the UK. But let's not confuse abiding by some regulatory body with the underhanded way they treat their partners.

After all, we all know what Grand Prive did. Yet Microgaming will not take action against them. The eCogra Group says there's nothing they can do. The Kahnawake say their hands are tied. All those organizations have "accepted standards" which an operation must abide by, and yet nothing has been done to Grand Prive. Why is that?

Sorry to be the pesemist again, Joey, but I really don't care two cents what "international standard" the 888 group manages to appease with their dog & pony act. I've been at the the front lines with these guys... and I've seen the casualties.

[joeyl]

It feels like no one is listening. Maybe you can get the point across, because I could have written your last post.

Welcome to the pessimist club.

Wtch out though, the all seeing omnipitent "they", will have you upgraded to hater if you don't back down.

[TheGooner]

I've always known them as 888.con and would not work with them again

[lots0]

I just noticed that 777.com one of 888's white labels has acquired over 21 THOUSAND inbound links in less than 6 months. Sounds real 'natural' to me...NOT.

From what I see every damn one of them is paid for... Must have cost them at least five figures..

You can see all 21 thousand paid links for yourselves here.
https://siteexplorer.search.yahoo.co...m&fr=sfp&bwm=i

I just put a couple of monkeys on the job of reporting every damn one of those paid links to google... It is going to cost me a couple of hundred.

I know there are some other folks here that have been hurt by 777's blackhat SEO... Reporting those links will help and it will make you feel better when 777 drops out of the SERP. The more people that report these paid links the faster google will take action.

If you sold links to 777.com(an 888.com white label) your going to hate me...
And I could care less... You deal with scum and you get treated like scum.

[Betpartners]

Just read this thread from beginning to end and i have to say i just love it when people say they will opt out of a discussion but dont.

Also nice to see webmasters refered to as clueless and that they deserve to be treated as scum.

And talking of standards i wonder when the affilaite protection industry will agree on a standard, we have unibet affiliate program deemed as predatory over at the AGD and yet are a featured affiliate program on the front page of the GPWA.

We have Rebecca of Casinocity defending 888 and J Todd attacking them with venom both of whom work for the same parent company, unless i am mistaken, that is supposed to be a protector of affiliate rights

We have a member that attacks other members relentlessly who dont follow his views.

We have respected members attacking Europartners and respected members defending them.

We have Grand Prive being pulled to pieces over their affiliate decision and Ecogra attacked for giving them acreditation with the line that if they treat affiliates this way how will they treat players.

While we have oh so many respected affiliate programs all over the place rated very low as a place for players over at SBR, and yet that does not have any effect on them being regarded as good affiliate programs, double standards or what.

The same ecogra who at one time were considered to be a serious player in a new all encompassing protector for affiliate programs.

What i see is a serious lack of consistency in so many areas, is it any wonder that affiliates have no idea what programs are worthwhile, who to trust, who not to trust and so on.

Yeah i expect a severe response to this, or maybe i will be ignored, whatever will be will be, but if i have made an incorrect statement please show me.

And if i have is it a surprise considering the mess this industry seems to be getting itself in to.

[Integrity]

Joey,

Since I don't post much I may not be picking up the nuances of such a flat medium as message boards. I believe, tho, that we are on the same page in this particular case. And if people want to lable me a "hater" for throwing my factual experiences around then so be it.

As far as "backing down" or not, I think I've said just about all I can.This is probably a smart time to take a step back before I am reigned in.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We have Rebecca of Casinocity defending 888 and J Todd attacking them with venom both of whom work for the same parent company, unless i am mistaken, that is supposed to be a protector of affiliate rights.

That's a true statement. I love Rebecca to death, but remember that I used to be an affiliate. My family depended on my commissions for our livelihood so I think in those terms. To the best of my knowledge, Rebecca has never run a portal as a webmaster on her own. Our perceptions of this situation would therefore be drastically different.

[Betpartners]

J Todd, i am not saying who is right or wrong or whatever, what i am saying is that you as someone that is an experienced affiliate, you won award i believe once in that regard, would surely agree that there is so much confusion out there and that it is becoming harder and harder for affilaites to really know the truth.

If two people from the same company cannot agree or two affiliate advocate sites or two respected forum members what chance is there for the rest of us who look to others for advice and guidance.

When it comes to advertising i am experienced enough to make my own choices but i am a fairly new affiliate as stated many times and i joined the GPWA not because it gives me credibility (i have still not applied for the seal of approval) but because i wanted to "tap up" the brains of the industry so i would become more of a success.

I am not so arrogant that i wont turn to others for advice, but the truth is it is becoming more and more regular that the respected websites, respected members including youself and others cannot seem to agree on some of the most basic issues.

[MichaelCorfman]

Yeah i expect a severe response to this, or maybe i will be ignored, whatever will be will be, but if i have made an incorrect statement please show me.

And if i have is it a surprise considering the mess this industry seems to be getting itself in to.

I don't think you will get a severe response because I believe what you say is fundamentally true. There are lots of different opinions on the part of different folks. Even folks that have the same general objectives often disagree about specific programs because of different personal experiences.

The best I know to do is to provide a place where opinions, as divergent as they might be, can be shared. And yes, that can be a mess to sort through. I believe the mess can be organized somewhat, and there can be transparency with respect to the level of the mess in the case of particular programs, but I'm personally not sure how to make the mess go away very quickly.

The best I know is to try to work to organize different aspects of the mess so things are easier to digest. Forums with comments related to specific programs, payment history information for different affiliates with different programs, etc.

What is most frustrating to me about this thread is that there is not as much focus as I would like about specific current problems and then webmasters working together to address those problems.

Lots0 and his post about 777.com is one of the few examples I find in here where a new situation is identified and specific action is being taken. Personally, I'd like to see a lot fewer general complaints, and a lot more specific situations that are current that can be examined and where action can be taken when appropriate. In my opinion, doing so makes a difference. Much of the rest of what has gone on in this thread is, in my opinion, not actionable, and therefore ultimately probably not that useful.

Michael

[Betpartners]

Lots0 and his post about 777.com is one of the few examples I find in here where a new situation is identified and specific action is being taken. Personally, I'd like to see a lot fewer general complaints, and a lot more specific situations that are current that can be examined and where action can be taken when appropriate. In my opinion, doing so makes a difference. Much of the rest of what has gone on in this thread is, in my opinion, not actionable, and therefore ultimately probably not that useful.

Michael

The thing is Michael that as a new affiliate and a fairly new member of this forum i look at things from that perspective as J todd does from his and others from theirs, and while i agree that it is better to have less complaints and more action it is hard when Lots0 brings a valid point to the table but finishes off with a statement that affiliates that deal with scum deserve to be treated like scum.

For starters there is no consensus that 888 is necasarily scum as viewed by Lots0, an example is Rebecca's post and anyone reading that statement can only summise that anyone dealing with 777.com and therefore 888.com is scum, would that include Rebecca, would that include respected affiliates that do deal with 888.com.

How one can be expected to take up action when statements like that is made is beyond me,

Look at it from a new or inexperienced affiliates point of view, even actionable issues are being degraded, do you think that new affiliates, inexperienced affilaites or even experienced affiliates that do ahve good relations with 888.com will respond to these sort of statements and the clear lack of consensus.

I dont, so yes less complaints and more action, but against whom, against what, organised by whom.

Really hard to know when so many differences are apparant and valid issues are degraded.

[Integrity]

Betpartners,

I completely understand what you're saying and can not dispute the truth of your words. Unfortunatley, after what happened to me in Washington State, then the passage of the UIGEA, and then the economy taking a severe turn, I (and subsequently the APCW) had to make some tough choices about our survival in the industry.

We merged with Casino City in November of last year and, as a result, I no longer have the sole authority to act on my own for the APCW. Prior to the merger, the APCW was prone to relentlessly pursue what we felt was in the best interest of affiliates and, to some degree, the players. Now, however, the voices of Anthony and myself are a small minority of what's actually contributed to the overall direction, speed, and responsiveness of the APCW.

I am not saying that Casino City or GPWA is incorrect in their approach to dealing with affiliate issues. They are meticulous, analytical, and take some time to resolve issues. This is a stark contrast to the APCW which was steered more by our personal convictions, experiences, and belief system. I'm not saying that one is better than the other... they're just different.

Casino City owns the APCW and signs my checks. I respect Michael as a business man and my boss, but make no mistake: I am his employee. Some of the struggles you glimpse are when "employee J Todd" comes into conflict with "Personally Convicted J Todd". And in an industry where it's becoming harder and harder to know the truth, I am no longer in a position to act as decisively and aggressively as I once was. Perhaps that's a good thing! LOL!