888 / Uffiliates Add Predatory Terms

[Betpartners]

J Todd i understand were you are coming from and think i should make a statement.

Ok thats enough negativity from me now,

Michael is right in what he says about too much complaining, i have posted up a contentious poll this week and continually highlighted problems, that is not usually my style.

It is so easy to highlight problems, we can all do that, it is a different type of character that looks to resolve problems.

I do not apologise at all for my statements this week because i belive i have been accurate and to an extent needed to be said.

BUT

Someone that does nothing but complain contributes nothing after a while and i would hate to get to that stage.

I will speak my mind when i feel it is justified, but i will refrain from complaining for the sake of it and try to be a more useful member on this forum.

[lots0]

The thing is Michael that as a new affiliate and a fairly new member of this forum i look at things from that perspective as J todd does from his and others from theirs, and while i agree that it is better to have less complaints and more action it is hard when Lots0 brings a valid point to the table but finishes off with a statement that affiliates that deal with scum deserve to be treated like scum.

For starters there is no consensus that 888 is necasarily scum as viewed by Lots0, an example is Rebecca's post and anyone reading that statement can only summise that anyone dealing with 777.com and therefore 888.com is scum, would that include Rebecca, would that include respected affiliates that do deal with 888.com.

How one can be expected to take up action when statements like that is made is beyond me,

Look at it from a new or inexperienced affiliates point of view, even actionable issues are being degraded, do you think that new affiliates, inexperienced affilaites or even experienced affiliates that do ahve good relations with 888.com will respond to these sort of statements and the clear lack of consensus.

I dont, so yes less complaints and more action, but against whom, against what, organised by whom.

Really hard to know when so many differences are apparant and valid issues are degraded.

Are you angry with me because you sold links to 777?

Or do you really think that someone that is working hard to steal my money(and yours) is not a SCUM?

The problem with "consensus" is that most new affiliates don't have a clue about what is really going on in this business. BTW - if you had been around for a few years you would know that there is in fact a large 'consensus' of affiliates that have already Blacklisted 888... For acting like thieving SCUM.

The truth is where YOU find it.... and you'll find it if you look.

My words may be harsh sometimes... My only excuse (Besides the fact that I am a real asshole) is that this is a harsh business, in a hard world.

You know I don't like to complain all the time.
I would rather heap phrase upon my contemporaries. One day, maybe I will be able to that again. But right now, I see very little to phrase and much to complain about...

Just so you know, I complain while I am fixing things. Complaining gets me fired up and keeps me focused.

[Betpartners]

Not angry with you at Lots0 i just take issue with one affiliate saying that other affiliates deserved to be treated like scum and that they are clueless.

If you read all my posts in this thread you would fully understand the points i made.

You call your words harsh etc, i call them rude and uneccasary.

Your points would carry more weight if you did them without attacking everything that moves

[casinobonusguy]

I just wanted to add my two cents here on 888.com.I realise many of you also have valid points but here is how I run my business and decide who I will promote. I met the 888 team in niagara falls canada back last year and we spoke about doing some business together. I had my husband sign up at their casino last september and start playing and he was putting in a bout $1000 a week most he lost but he did manage a few little wins.In january this year he won over $9000 on BEJEWELED.He got a bunch of blue ones is all i can tell you about that but he got his money within 2 days and along with a nice email from eddie and a coupon for a free $90.00

I judge a casino on how they treat my players as I am in this for the long haul ,this is my retirement fund and my kids school fund .So based on what we seen and after my husband won and cashed out I decided to promote them .Again I can only speak for myself on this issue ,if anyone wants to
throw me under the bus for that then go ahead.

Judy

[lots0]

I judge a casino on how they treat my players...

Thats a good way to go... as long as you don't care that the casino is ripping YOU off by having predatory Affiliate Terms and Conditions. And just about everyone that knows anything about this business has agreed that 888's affiliate T&C's are PREDATORY.

If you want to 'work' with 888 thats up to you... Just don't complain when they rip off your affiliate earnings through predatory T&C's ... Like they have done to so many before you.

@betpartners, I didn't say all affiliates should be treated like scum... just the affiliates that knowingly work with Scum, IMO they should be treated like Scum. You know the old saying... when you lie with Dogs your gonna get fleas...

And from your posts do do appear to be clueless about quite a lot of things in this business. You have even admitted in this thread that you are a new aff that is still learning... In other words... your still clueless.

BTW - Being called clueless is not an insult, we are all 'clueless' at one time or another and it sound better to me than calling you ignorant (which is also NOT an insult) just a statement about what I have observed.

[tomgalanis]

On a separate and strangemy amusing note...

http://www.888affiliates.com now points to Casino Tropez. Good old Europartners!

(Apologies if somebody's already pointed this out)

[joeyl]

What is most frustrating to me about this thread is that there is not as much focus as I would like about specific current problems and then webmasters working together to address those problems.


Michael

The thread starter is well known enough to be believed I believe.

It is another ongoing example of this firms mo, going back years. Right back to real classy moves like when this firm paid out millions to players because of thier own mistake.

Which is proof it is not beyond 888 to do the right thing.

This firm are platinum sponsors here. Yet they are still actively taking predatory aff terms to new lows according to the Affguard man.

No more examples are needed i'm afraid sir.

You have enough to be going along with regarding a discussion of how to solve out KW Blue's valid (from what I can tell) concerns of one of your top sponsors.

Cheers.

[pgaming]

On a separate and strangemy amusing note...

http://www.888affiliates.com now points to Casino Tropez. Good old Europartners!

(Apologies if somebody's already pointed this out)

Almost one of the same programs along with cpays. 888.con has many evil faces and affiliates.

Just a thought but will return to say something positive I hope.

greek39

[Betpartners]

@betpartners, I didn't say all affiliates should be treated like scum... just the affiliates that knowingly work with Scum, IMO they should be treated like Scum. You know the old saying... when you lie with Dogs your gonna get fleas...

And from your posts do do appear to be clueless about quite a lot of things in this business. You have even admitted in this thread that you are a new aff that is still learning... In other words... your still clueless.

BTW - Being called clueless is not an insult, we are all 'clueless' at one time or another and it sound better to me than calling you ignorant (which is also NOT an insult) just a statement about what I have observed.

What can one say to that you sage you, continue please, i am hanging on to every word you say

[lots0]

...i am hanging on to every word you say

That would be a wise move on your part.

[Betpartners]

It would be if i meant it alas i dont

Lots0 you are nothing but a forum bully, your posts show that and it is a shame that you are still allowed to post here.

I previously called for your banning when you used racial slurs and went from forum to forum attacking another respected member, in fact Michael closed that thread and called you arrogant and rude and that your comments carried more venom than was appropriate, the thread in question is here

http://www.gpwa.org/forum/777-steali...80635/p14.html

I urge all forum members to read that thread to see what sort of person Lots0 really is.

Now lets not beat about the bush, lets be absolutely honest here, you have called a member of Michael staff Scum, you have called other members scum, not direct to their faces but lets not split hairs, you have called them scum.

Rebecca says she has good relations and works with 888.com you have said that anyone that works with them deserves to be treated as scum.

Is this acceptable behaviour, i say clearly without any ambiguity that it is not, i again call for your banning, and if the truth be known i am quite stunned that Michael has not reacted sooner to you.

I will not be bullied by you, i wont be cowed by you, call me all the names you want, refer to me as you wish, jump from forum to forum attacking me, who cares i dont, i am not Aksana, i personally dont give two hoots what you say or do,

I am 100% confident in all my statements and i urge Michael to read what you have said, what you call people and to act, anything less is a serious abdication of responsibility.

You see Lots0 you can come across with your venom and diatrates all you want but that will never cover up how you conduct yourself.

I have no personal amnosity towards you, i dont even know you, but someone that calls people scum, uses racial slurs and victimises people is not someone that should be welcomed by the GPWA.

I disagree with people on here passionatley and they me and we have our points of view but we dont go to the gutter the way you do and attack people as you do.

Now if anyone can say i am wrong here show me were, was it me that said people that work with 888.com are scum, is it me that had a thread closed for venom and rudeness, was it me that jumped from forum to forum attacking a fellow member,

No it was Lots0

So Lots0 take this to heart, anything you say about the world of affilaition is completely ignored by me, anything you say that attacks people and calls them scum i will stand up to you, bullies have no place here or anywhere,

Michael i urge you to read Lots0 comments and to take a stand, its one thing being transparent and allowing differing points of view but its another to allow the following

Hi everyone,

I realize that there are many strong opinions out there, but I do want to say one thing: throughout my 4+ years at Casino City, my main points of contact at 888.com have been incredibly responsive and helpful. First Jonathan and Sharon, then Mark S., and now I'm working with Miko on the GPWA side of the business.

I did not have very much involvement with the GPWA side of our biz until just recently, but so far, Miko has been a complete pleasure and has done nothing but emphasize that he wants to work with GPWA, AGD, Casinomeister, etc, to bring U-ffiliates to the right place. He and I are in constant touch and I cannot imagine that this will change.

Lets see how it goes over time- I'm very hopeful and pretty positive that we're headed in the right direction here.

And

I just wanted to add my two cents here on 888.com.I realise many of you also have valid points but here is how I run my business and decide who I will promote. I met the 888 team in niagara falls canada back last year and we spoke about doing some business together. I had my husband sign up at their casino last september and start playing and he was putting in a bout $1000 a week most he lost but he did manage a few little wins.In january this year he won over $9000 on BEJEWELED.He got a bunch of blue ones is all i can tell you about that but he got his money within 2 days and along with a nice email from eddie and a coupon for a free $90.00

I judge a casino on how they treat my players as I am in this for the long haul ,this is my retirement fund and my kids school fund .So based on what we seen and after my husband won and cashed out I decided to promote them .Again I can only speak for myself on this issue ,if anyone wants to
throw me under the bus for that then go ahead.

Judy

And this how Lots0 refers to the two people above that clearly work with 888.com

I just noticed that 777.com one of 888's white labels has acquired over 21 THOUSAND inbound links in less than 6 months. Sounds real 'natural' to me...NOT.

From what I see every damn one of them is paid for... Must have cost them at least five figures..

You can see all 21 thousand paid links for yourselves here.
https://siteexplorer.search.yahoo.co...m&fr=sfp&bwm=i

I just put a couple of monkeys on the job of reporting every damn one of those paid links to google... It is going to cost me a couple of hundred.

I know there are some other folks here that have been hurt by 777's blackhat SEO... Reporting those links will help and it will make you feel better when 777 drops out of the SERP. The more people that report these paid links the faster google will take action.

If you sold links to 777.com(an 888.com white label) your going to hate me...
And I could care less... You deal with scum and you get treated like scum.

and

Thats a good way to go... as long as you don't care that the casino is ripping YOU off by having predatory Affiliate Terms and Conditions. And just about everyone that knows anything about this business has agreed that 888's affiliate T&C's are PREDATORY.

If you want to 'work' with 888 thats up to you... Just don't complain when they rip off your affiliate earnings through predatory T&C's ... Like they have done to so many before you.

@betpartners, I didn't say all affiliates should be treated like scum... just the affiliates that knowingly work with Scum, IMO they should be treated like Scum. You know the old saying... when you lie with Dogs your gonna get fleas...

And from your posts do do appear to be clueless about quite a lot of things in this business. You have even admitted in this thread that you are a new aff that is still learning... In other words... your still clueless.

BTW - Being called clueless is not an insult, we are all 'clueless' at one time or another and it sound better to me than calling you ignorant (which is also NOT an insult) just a statement about what I have observed.

ANd of course dont forget the thread i linked to above,

Now to anyone else reading this, please read this entire thread and show me where i defended 888.com or made a comment one way or the other about their business practices, you cannot, because i made no comment on that subject.

All i said was that confuison reigns supreme over issues, that different forums and different people within the same company etc have different opinions.

So i am not defending 888.com here nor am i condemning them, it is my business if i have done business with them or not, but so people know, no i have not sold links to 777 or whover they are and so on.

So please do not interperate this as a defence of 888.com it is not, it is purely about exposing the actions and words of Lots0, nothing more nothing less

My interefernce in this thread was about confusion within the industry and abuse used by Lots0, i am sorry if i derailed this thread but if it is ok for Lots0 to refer to people as scum then i am so disapointed with this place.

And again i repeat so that their is absolutely zero confusion on this matter, i call for Lots0 to be banned and a message sent out that you can disagree and debate with passion but you cannot be rude, offensive and downright nasty.

Michael i urge you, send that message.

[Betpartners]

Ok i have re-read what i have written and i stand by my comments 100% in relation to Lots0's behaviour

But asking Michael to ban people and putting him on the spot was wrong and for that i apologise.

While i regret that i do not regret highlighting abuse of others and will continue to stand up to people that cannot make a point without degrading people.

[MichaelCorfman]

But asking Michael to ban people and putting him on the spot was wrong and for that i apologise.

I do think some of the posts made by lots0 in this thread were out of line in the way others were referenced, but I also think he made some contributions in this thread too.

I don't want to be placed in a situation where I believe it is appropriate to restrict freedom of expression. But that means folks here need to try to exercise a bit more restraint in the way they express what they feel than has been done in this thread.

I would very much appreciate it if we could all rise above the differences of opinion and treat each other with the respect we each deserve.

Thanks for listening. And thanks, I hope, for helping make my job a little easier here.

Michael

[lots0]

Seems like someone has a bit of a personal grudge against me.

bp you have twisted the meaning of my words... And done so intentionally.

All anyone has to do is read what I have written... not your long winded, twisted and spite filled interpretations of what I have written.

Sorry Michael, you should not have to justify me, my opinions or what I say.
If anyone thinks that I called them a "Scum" please read what I wrote. If you still think I called you a name and your not 888, then I apologize.

Obviously bp has a personal problem with me...
Maybe he should use the "ignore" feature on me.
Cuz that is what I am going to do with him as soon as I am done with this post.

[pgaming]

I suppose everyone knows my feelings towards 888, not pretty. But I did mention something positive. I suggested for those 888 affiliates or company who persistently cause misery towards others their accounts should be locked. This would include those affiliates who violate 888 T&C’s. All earnings or even a percentage should be donated to charity, a good will gesture on behalf 888.

Will say Lots0 like so many other affiliates, including myself, have lots to be angry over. My journey with 888 began way back in 2005. In fact I made this post,

http://www.gpwa.org/forum/enough-165694.html

Almost was banned and rightly so looking back it was a bit harsh. What started out to be promising career turned out to be a three-year nightmare. 888 were crushing my site or their Rock Star affiliates were, no difference. As word spread many were starting to take notice. Soon iron clad proof emerged showing 888 was directly spamming everything that could earn them a few extra bucks. While I sat here struggling 888 and their very deep pockets kept the hammer going. Angry hell yes, I eventually sold my very first site mainly for this reason. I moved on masquerading most of my sites.

I will not do business with any site flying the 888 banners. Their software is riddled with spyware way beyond acceptable limits. In fact it really messes up your OS. Oh yes the players well I suppose there is lots of help forums with instructions “How to Rid Your P.C of 888.com.” I refuse to send a player to such a dodgy outfit. My conscience simply cannot support it.

Since then many affiliates have rouged/blacklisted 888 for various reasons. 888 carry some pretty crazy affiliates who will do almost anything. Such as this fellow (caution pornographic material screen shot at bottom)

Still in business I suppose. This fellow followed me around for almost a year. Can someone provide me a reasonable explanation why 888 have not gave HIM the boot? Take his proceeds and donate them to charity. There is something positive!


Maybe Lots0, so many affiliates and I have very strong reasons to be angry with 888. And I would also assume many AM’s do as well. 888 does not play a fair game, they cheat every which way they can. But hey their Ecogra certified LMAO!!


My apologies AGD for derailing the message, 888 goes predatory!

greek39

[Betpartners]

greek39 it does appear that 888.com gets peoples emotions boiling, would be great if this issue can be debated though without people being branded with names because they take sides etc.

But moving on, i dont really have a rock hard opinion on 888.com but i am curious if people think 888.com are capable of change and if they do change their ways would those that have blacklisted them give them a second chance.

Reading some of the more positive threads on here i get the impression that an effort is underway at 888.com to change for the better.

Or is it a case of 888.coms tactics are a part of their culture and that they cannot change or that any changes are just smoke and mirrors.

I am not sure if i personally would give a company a second chance if they ripped me off, but then again if we continually look to the past and not the present then it becomes difficult to move forward.

[MichaelCorfman]

but i am curious if people think 888.com are capable of change

I personally sat down with the folks at 888 over lunch when I was at the Affilicon conference in Israel last week, and I have also had a number of discussions and e-mail exchanges with Miko, as have other folks here, over the last couple of months.

What I believe is that Miko and the current affiliate management team are an entirely different group of folks than served in that role at 888 a few years ago, and that they have an entirely different philosophy than was evidently practiced at one time.

I believe if we can provide concrete examples of specific issues that are currently taking place, that they will work with us to help make the right things happen. But we also have to support these folks and provide them the details they need to be able to make changes happen.

There is discussion going on on that front with respect to affiliate terms and conditions. I know it has not resulted in visible changes yet, so skepticism on that front is rational on the part of folks who are skeptical of changes coming from them.

Instances where affiliates are violating their terms and conditions in ways that are bad for other affiliates is an area where I believe they would act promptly on any feedback we can provide. That is why I have encouraged specific comments in the threads here on that front.

Michael

[thepokerkeep]

I downloaded Pacific Poker a while back to test their software... shortly after they hosted the Niagara Falls meet-up last September.

This is what their software left on my computer:

4.INF.infected.000.infected.000.infected.000.infec ted.000.infected.000.infected.001.infected.001.inf ected.000.infected.000.infected.000.infected.000.i nfected.000.infected.000.infected.000'
C:\Users\All Users\.clamwin\quarantine\IN895F~3.INF: Adware.Casino-28 FOUND
C:\Users\All Users\.clamwin\quarantine\IN895F~3.INF: moved to 'C:\ProgramData\.clamwin\quarantine\IN895F~3.INF.i nfected'

Just one more reason to tread very carefully with 888.com

[lots0]

Michael, I understand that the top management have brought in new people. However it was not the "old" people that left that were the real problem it was the folks on the board of directors that encouraged all this Rogue activity from their affiliates and as far as I know those people... the people that really run 888 and make the policy decisions have not changed.

If 888 is really going to try to make progress why not start with their white label 777.com.... I have shown in this thread where these guys are breaking the rules and hurting other affiliates by cheating.... BTW - I may not be able to prove in an open forum that 777 is using keyword dilution attacks against their competitors but I KNOW they are. This is besides the over 21 thousand paid links pointing toward their site.

But I don't expect 888 to do anything about 777 or any of their other thieving white labels... Because the guys that are really running things at 888 have not changed and all they want right now is entry back into the states without any problems after the UGIEA goes away. So they are acting at being nice till they get what they want...

[Betpartners]

I personally sat down with the folks at 888 over lunch when I was at the Affilicon conference in Israel last week, and I have also had a number of discussions and e-mail exchanges with Miko, as have other folks here, over the last couple of months.

What I believe is that Miko and the current affiliate management team are an entirely different group of folks than served in that role at 888 a few years ago, and that they have an entirely different philosophy than was evidently practiced at one time.

I believe if we can provide concrete examples of specific issues that are currently taking place, that they will work with us to help make the right things happen. But we also have to support these folks and provide them the details they need to be able to make changes happen.

There is discussion going on on that front with respect to affiliate terms and conditions. I know it has not resulted in visible changes yet, so skepticism on that front is rational on the part of folks who are skeptical of changes coming from them.

Instances where affiliates are violating their terms and conditions in ways that are bad for other affiliates is an area where I believe they would act promptly on any feedback we can provide. That is why I have encouraged specific comments in the threads here on that front.

Michael

Well Michael you are putting your neck on the block here somewhat.

Like i said earlier i have no hard opinion but others do, that is very clear.

I think its admirable that you are working to find a solution in regards to 888 and giving them a chance to put what some members are very angry about right.

You just have to hope they keep their side of the bargain and dont end up letting you down.

If they did let you down it would make it so much harder for affiliates to give any other casino/poker room etc a second chance in future.

A lot could be riding on this and so i for one wish you good luck and hope that at the end it has worked out for everyone concerned.

Far better to have 888 on board with affiliates than against them, hopefully they fully understand that.