All 22 casinos in rewards player emails and links to CR website

[GCG]

Cross marketing (with or without affiliate tags) is how these affiliate groups inject their expertise into the mix and generate players for the programs that they are marketing. It is a part of the business.

It is all about FAIR marketing, this IMO is very unethical business to target affiliates players bases with 22 sister casinos.

You can also say it is easy and very profitable for the program to (ab)use this channel to generate profits from OUR referred players.

[TheGooner]

A valid point about fairness GCG - but what is fair? What level of marketing outside affiliates do you expect the program to do? None? Offline only?

I think that capturing and tracking what happens at different 3rd party affiliate groups is a valuable exercise - a task for AGD perhaps? - because it does affect affiliate revenues.

Anyway - Let's take a look at affiliate / payment practices in industries that are somewhat related ... although they may not be exact examples ...

INSURANCE SALES :
If the insurance person brings in a life insurance sale then they get affiliate credit. If the insurance salesman / saleswoman contacts the customer again - and sells a second product and submits the right forms - then the salesperson gets another credit.

However, if the customer directly contacts the company by phone or reacts to a generic physical mailout or TV/press ad campaign and signs up themselves for a new policy, (perhaps car insurance this time) without salesperson effort, then there is no new credited affiliate fee.

ONLINE BOOK STORE :
Amazon books runs the biggest bookstore on the planet - its very popular - and it mails out - and displays online recommendations - and a whole lot more.

IF you run an Amazon bookstore you know that you get the referred customers current purchases for this visit - but not all additional or future purchases.

All those mailouts are untagged.

SUMMARY :
Two examples that have some relevance to us - one affiliate and one online seller - both have plenty of cross marketing - and neither lock in a permanent revenue stream to the initial agent/affiliate.

In both cases you can be sure that the customer receives significant cross-sell marketing - and as a customer it feels natural business practice to get it.

====

Derail in progress ... ( ignore if you want)

As for "Unethical" - well that is a phrase bandied about too often.

I've heard it said many times - although not at gambling affiliate forums obviously - that gambling establishments (and online affiliates) are unethical in promoting an activity that causes 99% of participants to lose money. Gasp!

Pubs and club owners that want to open earlier / close later to provide more access to drink and pokies are labelled as unethical or morally questionable. It's a lame label that's too easily thrown around. People will go in and drink and even gamble! Gasp!

Arms dealers are vilified and labelled as such too, and yet the biggest sellers of arms, weapons and ammunitions to African and middle-eastern dictatorships are actually the five governments who are permanent members of the United nations Security Council. *

(* OK - I took that quote from the film "Lord of War' starring Nicolas Cage - GREAT FILM - but it is true. So is Obama an unethical warmonger as head of the US Government?)

/Derail

==========

[Dominique]

There are industry standards. Sports affiliations have different standards from casino affiliations and poker affiliation. They are all totally different models.

Amazon is about the crappiest affiliate program on the planet.

The insurance example is offline and doesn't really apply.

This issue applies to the online casino affiliate standards only.

In that environment, it's not ok to try to woo the player away from the affiliate and send them to another casino where no tags exist.

[GCG]

This issue applies to the online casino affiliate standards only.

In that environment, it's not ok to try to woo the player away from the affiliate and send them to another casino where no tags exist.

Very well said Dominique could not agree more !

Next : what can be done about this ?

According to the GPWA code of conduct :

Responsible Promotion and Procedures

Sponsor Companies will be truthful in all promotions and publish only accurate information about their operations. Any rules and registration procedures affecting affiliates or the public will be made publicly available by the Sponsor Companies. Sponsor Companies will not use unethical methods of promotion either directly or indirectly through others.

[Anthony]

I am a player at Grand Mondial and I have received promo emails from others CR casinos.

Please forward me the promo email: anthony at gpwa .org

I will be following up with Casino Rewards on Monday.

My question is : what is GPWA's point of view upon this issue and the comments that have been made by the affiliates?

In the interest of resolving the issues I prefer not making a statement while we are discussing the affiliate concerns with RA.

[Daera]

I get 1 promo email about every other day.

You are from the US, I think that is very different regarding promos as you can not sign up/open a new account at other CR casinos.

I see the first post in this thread was edited 8 days after it was posted, and most of it was deleted. Why did you delete all of that?

And you quoted a post that wasn't even posted yet, my post from a few posts down.

I don't understand why that was done. I thought there was a time limit on editing our posts.

I agree with Gooners post.

[joeyl]

This issue applies to the online casino affiliate standards only.

In that environment, it's not ok to try to woo the player away from the affiliate and send them to another casino where no tags exist.

If the Rewards "partner" casinos are all owned by the same firm, all but 1 are not needed aside marketing purposes.

If they are not, they have nothing to gain by cross promoting.

You won't prove the wooing bit anytime soon. Quite unlike you to get off the fence so quick.

No worries. I lost my patience long ago.

[Ixian]

I see the first post in this thread was edited 8 days after it was posted, and most of it was deleted. Why did you delete all of that?

And you quoted a post that wasn't even posted yet, my post from a few posts down.

I don't understand why that was done. I thought there was a time limit on editing our posts.

WTF! This thread does not make sense to any new readers. GCG why did you edit and delete part of your first post? You've now cocked up the whole thread!

[GCG]

Ixian

Originally Posted by Daera
I see the first post in this thread was edited 8 days after it was posted, and most of it was deleted. Why did you delete all of that?

And you quoted a post that wasn't even posted yet, my post from a few posts down.

I don't understand why that was done. I thought there was a time limit on editing our posts.



WTF! This thread does not make sense to any new readers. GCG why did you edit and delete part of your first post? You've now cocked up the whole thread!


FYI I deleted the info during the time I wanted to quit as I did not want to have a problem with CR and there was nobody to back me up. Lets' say I went nuts about the whole thing.

BUT I have put everything back later and nothing was lost as I saved all the posts in a file. I have mixed up the post on the 8th and 9th should be the other way around, shit I am deeply sorry about that!


Frankly I do not understand why people say to be ok with cross promotion this does not make sense at all ; it will only make your playersbase and earnings shrink at the end of every month of each year espicially with so many options for players with the CR program.

[Daera]

You're probably already familiar with this, but... At Referback, affiliates don't get credit for players they bring to a casino of theirs, unless the player is new to the Belle Rock group. Anotherwards, the player can't already have accounts at any of their other casinos. But once you do bring one in new to the group, that player is yours across the board... any/all casinos in their group that the player signs up for after that will automatically be yours.

Referback, is one of the few programs I know of that does this. When they started this, I stopped promoting them. I hate that model. I think that if it's a big deal to make sure you get credit for any player you bring in not just at the one casino you sent them to, m to, but to other casinos in a group... maybe Referback or programs that use that model is a better choice. For me, it's not.

I've been working with Rewards for years and they treat me well. I have players that made their first deposit many years ago, and are still playing. I don't feel like they're wooing my players away from me. My stats don't show that.

Some things are more important to some of us then others. I've been following this thread since I do work with this group, but IMO.. I don't feel that they're doing anything wrong here.

[arkyt]

Frankly I do not understand why people say to be ok with cross promotion this does not make sense at all ; it will only make your playersbase and earnings shrink at the end of every month of each year espicially with so many options for players with the CR program.

Just the sad state of industry affairs ... most affiliates seemingly dont care about anything other than whats coming into their pockets. Accordingly I have little doubt that some of those who have dismissed this cross promoting are likely bringing in BIG bucks from Casino Rewards. Its likely considered to be more beneficial to kiss ass than it is to kick it.

If they are not, they have nothing to gain by cross promoting.

You won't prove the wooing bit anytime soon.

I recall a recent post where on program stated that 44% of their players were referred by affiliates ... if you consider (+/-) 30-40% rev share for the life time of a player, I think some might argue that theres plenty to gain. Course Im like you - "I lost my patience long ago."

[GCG]

You're probably already familiar with this, but... At Referback, affiliates don't get credit for players they bring to a casino of theirs, unless the player is new to the Belle Rock group. Anotherwards, the player can't already have accounts at any of their other casinos. But once you do bring one in new to the group, that player is yours across the board... any/all casinos in their group that the player signs up for after that will automatically be yours.

Referback, is one of the few programs I know of that does this. When they started this, I stopped promoting them. I hate that model. I think that if it's a big deal to make sure you get credit for any player you bring in not just at the one casino you sent them to, m to, but to other casinos in a group... maybe Referback or programs that use that model is a better choice. For me, it's not.

I have no problem with referback one account policy as they have stated this in their T&C's which is FAIR.

REFERBACK xxhttp://www.referback.com/legal/commission :
1.9.'New Casino Customer': A player who is referred to a Merchant Casino by an Affiliate? which player does not at such juncture have an existing account at the Merchant Casino or any of the other Merchant Casinos or Poker Rooms

You can look at it both ways : sometimes it will benefit you and sometimes not.

I've been working with Rewards for years and they treat me well. I have players that made their first deposit many years ago, and are still playing. I don't feel like they're wooing my players away from me. My stats don't show that.

Some things are more important to some of us then others. I've been following this thread since I do work with this group, but IMO.. I don't feel that they're doing anything wrong here.

If you have the feeling the CR program treats you well does not mean they are doing fair business as players can stick with a casino for years but that alone is not an argument to talk things right IMO.

You can not possibly know how many players have clicked on links in the CR email promos, newsletters / casinorewards.com site and subsequently are now playing at the casinos you have not yet referred them too and are now tagged to the casino not the affiliate (you).

I am NOT talking about how friendly they are and the service you get as this is generally very good.

It is about the cross marketing issue.

[Ixian]

At the end of the day it's about choice, if you don't like what CR are doing then there are many other programs out there that can offer what you are looking for. I think most affiliates feel that it's like farting against thunder and therefore don't kick up a lot of fuss.

Spend your time changing things you have more control over and, one day when you are a Super Affiliate, you can then tell them to kiss your arse when they approach you for business.

[joeyl]

The original poster and some others have concerns. They seem valid to me. I would like to see the conclusion either way. I can't see a downside.

[GCG]

It has been a long time since the last reply from Rewardsaffiliates, when will they follow up on this issue ?

[Renee]

- A player is tagged to the last referrer to that individual casino.

- As such, if a player has a) never previously been referred to that casino, or b) has never been previously referred via bannertag, and registers by way of type in or via Casino Rewards, the player will be tagged to the casino, regardless of whether they are already a member of another different Casino Rewards casino brand. If the last referrer to that individual casino is no tag, the player will be tagged to no tag at that individual casino.

- If the player has been referred to a casino site by bannertag of affiliate or advertiser previously without registering and happens to get to the casino site again via type in or through CasinoRewards.com, the player will be tagged to the affiliate or advertiser who last referred that player to that casino site.

- If the player has been referred to a casino site by bannertag of affiliate or advertiser previously without registering, and happens to get to the casino site again via a new bannertag of affiliate or advertiser, the new bannertag will overwrite the previous bannertag and the player will be tagged to the new bannertag that referred the player to that casino site.

- Since the Casino Rewards group has been around for over 10 years, this means that any players you refer to each casino are yours at that individual casino and an affiliate who may have referred the same player 10 years ago at another casino is not reaping the rewards from your continued hard work. This also means that affiliates have the opportunity to send the same player to multiple brands, and that different affiliates are able to send the same player to a brand whilst earning the commission from the brand they referred the player to.

- Since the CTR of the logos within the CR newsletter is less than 0.1% of all opened newsletters, this means that less than 1 in 1000 of all players clicks on those logos. Since the percentage of players referred by affiliates is far less than the percentage referred by other means, this would mean that the less than 1 person who clicks on the logo is unlikely to actually be referred by an affiliate.

- Casino Rewards approaches external marketing companies who have their own database of players, in order to send these players to Casino Rewards brands. Since the external company is using their own data which we don’t have access to, nor do they have access to our data, their emails contain their own bannertags. It is possible that these emails may go to existing players sent via no tag, advertiser or via an affiliate, however there is no way we can know that they are sending mailers to someone who is already a member of one of the Casino Rewards casinos. Casino Rewards simply pays a commission on any new players sent, just like an affiliate. Since players are tagged to the last referral to that individual brand, if the player decides to register at a new casino through that promotion, the player will be tagged to the marketing company at that individual casino.

- All tracking has been the same since the program opened in 2000. There has been no intention to hide this and it has always been public knowledge that this is the way in which Casino Rewards tags players to affiliates.

If there are any further questions, please let me know.

[GCG]

- A player is tagged to the last referrer to that individual casino.


- As such, if a player has a) never previously been referred to that casino, or b) has never been previously referred via bannertag, and registers by way of type in or via Casino Rewards [imagelink on all 22 casinos (main & all internal pages) and by promo emails, newletters sent several times per week] , the player will be tagged to the casino, regardless of whether they are already a member of another different Casino Rewards casino brand. If the last referrer to that individual casino is no tag, the player will be tagged to no tag at that individual casino.

By all the efforts of promotional emails with links to all CR casinos (eg telling players how much some has won at a particular casino and adding a textlink to it and player testimonials)

and asking players to logon to casinorewards.com in emails is cross promotion.

plus referring players to your casinorewards.com site as all the casinos already have that information under banking.

"Get your winnings even faster!
Make sure you get what you win as fast as possible by choosing convenient and secure eWallet options over old fashioned paper cheques. CasinoRewards offers all the most popular eWallet options --> xxhttp://news.crewards-images.com/link/cr_promo/page.asp?page=banking.asp?aff_id=2_2_10841_2_3_357 _2

redirects to --> xxhttp://www.casinorewards.com/main/banking.asp?aff_id=2_2_10841_2_3_357_2

, including Moneybookers, Ecocard and NETeller, to ensure your winnings are paid directly into your account without delay."


- Since the CTR of the logos within the CR newsletter is less than 0.1% of all opened newsletters, this means that less than 1 in 1000 of all players clicks on those logos. Since the percentage of players referred by affiliates is far less than the percentage referred by other means, this would mean that the less than 1 person who clicks on the logo is unlikely to actually be referred by an affiliate.

Why do you think we have to believe it is 0.1% ?

So with 1 millions newsletters sent to players there are 1000 clicks to gain from "external marketing companies / casinorewards " ?

I think that would not worth the effort for them or you.

I think it more than 10% at the very least (1 out of 10 players clicking just on 1 or more links in the multiple emails they get)

When sent 1 millions newsletters there are 100,000 clicks to gain from "external marketing companies aka casinorewards" is more realistic.

There is money to be made by sending mass mailers to players and with more brands it is more likely a player joins a different casino which the affiliates never has referred before.

I do not think a lot of affiliates like to see rewards wooing their whales away from them.

- Casino Rewards approaches external marketing companies who have their own database of players, in order to send these players to Casino Rewards brands. Since the external company is using their own data which we don’t have access to, nor do they have access to our data, their emails contain their own bannertags.

[I opened a new email account (this data was NOT known to the 3rd party) to test this and it was casinorewards site cr-news.com etc who sent me the newsletter a day later!]

It is possible that these emails may go to existing players sent via no tag, advertiser or via an affiliate, however there is no way we can know that they are sending mailers to someone who is already a member of one of the Casino Rewards casinos. Casino Rewards simply pays a commission on any new players sent, just like an affiliate. Since players are tagged to the last referral to that individual brand, if the player decides to register at a new casino through that promotion, the player will be tagged to the marketing company at that individual casino.

- All tracking has been the same since the program opened in 2000. There has been no intention to hide this and it has always been public knowledge that this is the way in which Casino Rewards tags players to affiliates.

Most affiliates do not have a clue how you have been tagging players over the last 10 years, I recently just found out because of the new brands you have acquired where I have a player account.

Telling us you are doing this for more than 10 years does not mean that your company adheres to ethical business standards nor to the GPWA sponsor code of conduct :
Responsible Promotion and Procedures

Sponsor Companies will be truthful in all promotions and publish only accurate information about their operations. Any rules and registration procedures affecting affiliates or the public will be made publicly available by the Sponsor Companies. Sponsor Companies will not use unethical methods of promotion either directly or indirectly through others.

I feel the answer from Rewardsaffiliates is just more of the same : defending their marketing strategy and efforts while no solutions are offered to affiliates.

[Renee]

To be clear, the Casino Rewards newsletters are sent by us, not an external marketing company.
The external marketing companies are the ones that send the mailers for one brand in particular that you said you have received. The emails are the ones available inside the affiliate program under Marketing Tools > Emails.

Please read through my post slowly and carefully. Do not read it as you want it to sound, read it as it is. I don't think you are understanding what I have written and it is causing you a lot of confusion.

More of the same is being posted because each time I post, my posts are unclear to you guys. This is the most clear I could make it.

[arkyt]

I don't think you are understanding what I have written and it is causing you a lot of confusion.

Wheres the confusion? The undeniable fact is that Casino Rewards does cross promote without affiliate tags - both directly and apparently indirectly.

[Renee]

Wheres the confusion?

The confusion is in the fact that Rick keeps assuming that the Casino Rewards newsletters are being sent by an external marketing company where if you read my post I did not say that. Every post continually beats this theory like a dead horse. This is why I have asked him to read it again slowly. It wasn't aimed at you - I have no doubt you understood everything I've written from my very first post.

This thread seems to be going around in circles. The same questions are asked in every post, which is why the same answers keep getting posted.
When there is some new information or a new question I will be happy to post again, but until that time I don't think there is anything else for me to add.

Cheers