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  1. #1
    retracted is offline New Member
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    Angry Casino's refused to pay $78,000

    Yesterday (23.09.2016) i won a big amount of money at casino-x $ 78 000 and i wanted to take them but instead if getting money my account was blocked and money were canceled.And it was explained as i was a rule breaker because i have a double account. So whats really happened?
    1. I registered an account at casino-x at the end of 2013 and i played till beginning of 2016. And my account was ok and it wasn’t blocked
    2. At the beginning of 2016 i had to reinstall OS and i couldn’t enter to account because i didn’t remember a password. Why i dididnt remember it? Because email that was used for registration is a corporative email and it blocks any message from casino. So i didn’t get any email for password recovering
    3. I wrote emails to tech department about this case - i hold 40 min to get an answer but didn’t get any clear feedback. So i stopped to play at this casino
    4. At september of current year (17 th september) i decided to play again. And i had to register a new account since my old account is no chance to enter and recover password
    5. I want to pay attention that i canceled all bonuses including first deposit bonus because i am not a bonus abuser - it just i can’t enter my old account.
    6. All personal datas of both accounts were same. All deposits form both accounts were made with same ID of yandex wallet and as i remember using same bank card SO once again, i didn’t make a second account to cheat somebody or anything bad. I just couldn’t enter my old account. AT the rules of casino it says that you may block an account if it is related with others already blocked accounts. My both accounts were not blocked.
    Any reasonable person after read this information will understand that i am not a cheater. all wins were fair. And casino just doesn’t want to pay me my wins.
    The only solution i see is you pay me my win which was got fair to my account. In case if casono-x doesn’t respect and cheat their users using rules but at the same time fully understands that i am not a cheater. Than i ask administration of web -site add their projects and themes( joy casino, casino-x, pashfriends) to the the black list and close them at forum.
    This situation became a really disaster and many web resources already discussing it and i see a lot of support not just form end users but also from owners of other web casionos
    i hope this problem can be solved

  2. #2
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    Thank you for your feedback. We passed this information to the casino administration. As soon as we get an official response it will be posted in this thread.

  3. #3
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    The following we provide an official response from the casino administration:

    As the incident is becoming more public and viral, we would like to clear things up once and for all.

    The first player's account has been registered for az @ ***** ru email on 16.09.2013 at 21:52:24.
    The player was using this account to play at the casino up to 23.07.2016 when he made the last deposits: https://gyazo.com/d62d408696a6a11677ea042627d7f2e5. But the player logged in this account regularly https://gyazo.com/f1abd38bc575a9351ee82206f0a38c05, which indicates that the player did not lose access to his account and continued to use it. We have checked the history of messages to the support service and did not find any letters of the player in which he would inform about the problems with the access to the account and / or notify us about opening a new account. This screenshot shows intersections with his other accounts:
    https://gyazo.com/385f34048dca2baaf385e6e409947720

    Then, without notifying the casino support on 31.10.2015 at 15:20:44 the player created a second account for 555****@mail.ru email and started playing at this account using the first deposit bonus and other promotional offers of the casino, which is strictly prohibited at our casino and all major and well-known online casinos around the world. Intersections with other accounts are shown in this screenshot: https://gyazo.com/20bb1a4da027e25ad69294242736d725. The player also hadn’t lost the access to this account, as he logged in successfully on 23.09.2016 at 15:45. This screenshot with logging history proves this fact:
    https://gyazo.com/39d81f133819bc88079db91c60402b1b account.

    The third account (that we confiscated the winnings from) was created by the same player on 9/17/2016 at 15:00:16 for it******@ya.ru email, without prior notification of the casino about other two existing accounts. The fact that player made a deposit and activated the first deposit bonus is illustrated here https://gyazo.com/5633c621ff5cd19e52f834a26015cb24 at 17.09.2016 at 15:07 https://gyazo.com/2eef02265047fa8d34e11ecbaba26042 with receiving the gift for signing up such as double comppoints for 24 hours. The player used the first deposit bonus and lost it to the full on 09.17.2016 at 15:52:32. The fact that this is the third account of the player is obvious considering the screenshots of Multi-account tab: https://gyazo.com/f8e5407acd0a7e262b7dcdb288354474

    Now moving to the charges:
    • The player registered his first account in 2013. This account was not blocked before and is not blocked today.
    • The player is lying that he could not sign in, because in July 2016 he made deposits and played at this account successfully. Also, the player logged into the account straight before and after the confiscation of winning from his third account.
    • The player has not contacted the support and informed us that he has troubles logging in, if there is the evidence that he has informed us he could address it to us.
    • In fact, the player has registered a third account on the 17th of September. However, he already had two other accounts at this point that he had access to, which is proven and described above.
    • The most important thing - the player lied that he did not use the first deposit bonus - he activated it and lost totally.
    • It is entirely correct that the information coincides in all of three accounts. The player has used the bonus in all of three accounts. The rules state that:

    5.5. You may only open a single account at the Website. In all cases, only one account per customer, per household, per address, per shared computer and per shared IP address will be allowed to sign up and make use of Casino. Any other account you open on the Website will be considered as the "Duplicate Account". All Duplicate Accounts may be immediately closed by us and:
    5.5.1. all transactions made from the Duplicate Account will be made void;
    5.5.2. all stakes or deposits made using that Duplicate Account will be returned to you; and
    5.5.3. any returns, winnings or bonuses which you have gained or accrued during the time the Duplicate Account was active will be forfeited from you and may be reclaimed by us, and any funds withdrawned from the Duplicate account shall be returned to us on demand.

    As a result, we refunded all deposits made with the player’s cards. Also, we refunded all deposits made with other methods to the card that the player indicated excepting promotional money that he used at the site. We acted strictly according to our terms and conditions and have not violated any rule.
    It is worth mentioning that the player uses the public opinion dramatically trying to put pressure on the casino and ruin our reputation. While himself lies about the logging in failure (our records show he has successfully logged into the profiles), only one other account (there were at least 2 other ones) and the first deposit bonus he did not use (he used and lost it). The only point that distinguishes this player from other bonus hunters and abusers is the sum of the winning, but the rules are the same for everyone and must be followed.

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    New member. Sorry for my poor english.

    Hi Katja,


    Obv, it`s clear that TS is a multi-accounter. No doubt. And it`s right to block MAs and no to pay I think. But...

    Your answer is so precise and shining - all your actions were made according T&C, but you ignore one crucial moment. Here it is:

    Why didn`t you block player`s 2nd and 3d account instantly? Player made deposits and lost his money and there was no problem - is it ok? But once he`d won a huge prize he became a rule-braker and bonus abuser. It`s clear that casino KNEW about 3 accounts - i think it doesn`t require any explanations.

    UPD. Is it true that all 3 accounts were registered with the same personal data of a real person? Don`t you think it`s a ...hmmm... strange abusing?
    Last edited by Gamblaz; 26 September 2016 at 10:34 pm.

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  6. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gamblaz View Post
    New member. Sorry for my poor english.

    Hi Katja,


    Obv, it`s clear that TS is a multi-accounter. No doubt. And it`s right to block MAs and no to pay I think. But...

    Your answer is so precise and shining - all your actions were made according T&C, but you ignore one crucial moment. Here it is:

    Why didn`t you block player`s 2nd and 3d account instantly? Player made deposits and lost his money and there was no problem - is it ok? But once he`d won a huge prize he became a rule-braker and bonus abuser. It`s clear that casino KNEW about 3 accounts - i think it doesn`t require any explanations.

    UPD. Is it true that all 3 accounts were registered with the same personal data of a real person? Don`t you think it`s a ...hmmm... strange abusing?
    From my experience, casinos are not able to check all accounts in real time for duplicates especially if players reside in country which do not have a specific gaming license, like UK or Denmark. For countries like UK, or DK, if the casino hold a license of the country, they are able to and must complete reality checks in for every new registered accounts to monitor duplicates or players which gambling problems to take actions asap.

    I doubt that this is possible through the jurisdiction of this player and in such cases, they only check players account(s) in case of withdrawals, big or small, then look for the smallest breach to apply their T&C which is pretty harsh but still correct as T&C do not specify a timeframe as of when the casino monitors such activity. Its all in their own discretion.

    The account of the player must be crystal clear to be able to withdraw such winnings, even as small as 20$, and in this case it's not.

    So as much as I can feel the pain of the player and in his shoes, would surely be in a much crazier rage, the facts presented by casino-x IMO support to reasonable doubt their decision to withhold the winnings.

    Unless he has sufficient proof to support his claim and bring it to the table, I lean toward the decision of the operator.

    We shouldn't all the time point the finger to casinos when they take such harsh decisions, of which most of them involve paying and for this kind of amount, it puts them on the spotlight, we also have to learn to point the finger to players who try to abuse the casino and breach obvious terms which are listed in almost if not all online casinos.
    Information is the key to success and Ignorance is the mother of most mistakes.
    Read it again.
    www.GambleSafely.com
    Les meilleurs casinos en ligne français


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    Hi Mikew,

    I understand that formally casino is right and I agree with it`s decision. Formally. MA`s proofs are too obvious.
    Also I understand that it`s almost impossible to prove that operator knew about previous player`s accounts from the very beginning.

    But imho there is a great difference between 3 accounts with non-equal personal data and payment options and 3 accounts with fully matched details excepting e-mail.

    Seriously (I really don`t know): ok, casino with Curacao license shouldn`t check all the accounts but is it really possible to "overlook" this situation? You can see on the screenshots that casino administrator can look "Multi-accounts" in player`s profile.

    So do you really believe there`s no security alert when almost totally matching accounts appear, payments are made using the same cards and etc?
    I don`t.
    Because first of all it`s necessary to casino for anti-fraud activity.
    Last edited by Gamblaz; 27 September 2016 at 1:43 am. Reason: user-friendly view

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    Hi Gamblaz,

    You are asking a very legit question which IMO deserve a answer which will also clarify this blind spot.
    I am also asking myself now why the casino doesn't do such necessary reality checks for new accounts. Having the same details matching 3 times is a bit to extreme already and no one is being aware of it until a withdrawal is requested.

    This fall under a different thread or subject, but I would be interested to see if casino-x which provide accurate answers will share with us some lights and clarify this matter.
    Information is the key to success and Ignorance is the mother of most mistakes.
    Read it again.
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  10. #8
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    That`s it!

    In my opinion it`s clear enough that casino knew about all the accounts of the TS from the very beginning.
    And casino let him make deposits, claim bonuses and play for real money using the same banking cards.

    Isn`t it a common security standard for e-commerce to block accounts and start investigation if 2 users use the same personal data and payment options? YES it is! I`m sure one or more casino representatives can confirm this fact.

    But Casino-X didn`t block accounts. Why? It`s clear for me: if player loses - it`s ok. And if player wins - he`ll be blocked for MA. And the wortst thing for casino will be returning the deposits according to the T&C. And everybody here knows that T&C are casino`s shield for almost any debatable situation.

    So what we see in this situation: you can create as much accounts as you want and lose your money but not win. If you win - you`ll get nothing. It`s a freeroll for casino! Cool!

    My position:
    Casino-X is unfair in this case. If it`s legitimate for one person to create many accounts, make deposits, use bonuses and lose money so it`s also legitimate for this player to create many accounts, make deposits, use bonuses and win money. It is justly, isn`t it?

    Because double standards are inappropriate.

    Casino-X must pay in this case and avoid the similar situations in future.
    Last edited by Gamblaz; 27 September 2016 at 5:40 am.

  11. #9
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    Thank you for your questions. This is the answer from the Casino administrator:

    If we understand you correctly what you called reality check should be called KYC (know your customer) and yes it is required by MGA (and UKGC) regulation to be:
    1. filled in upon registration
    2. checked whether it matches any other account upon registration
    3. and decision made right away whether to allow this new registration to be completed


    But of course, it doesn’t say that such decision is forever binding, meaning KYC check may/should be performed at a later stage as well, and a new decision can be made. For example, according to MGA regulation whenever a player's requested plus already paid out withdrawals reach or exceed EUR 2,300 additional KYC procedure must be performed. So, regulator says to perform the first check on sign up and at least one more on payout exceeding that number above.


    Other regulations require doing thorough KYC on sign up, including national ID / social security with a cross request to the government database. So the casino takes player’s sign up data, sends it to the government and if the authorities answer: ‘yes this John Smith has this national ID number and yes he is registered at this address,' that casino knows exactly which player it is dealing with. This is the way how it works in Italy under AAMS regulation, and this is just an example that rules are different everywhere. Therefore, it is regulation driven, not casino management driven, this is not casino feature at all because it is the obligation of a license holder.


    Now, we do not have an MGA license or Italian license or any other but Curacao, that doesn’t mean we are bad, that means we have a different point of view about certain procedures, according to our T&C.


    Although we collect individual data on sign up, we do not perform a cross check through the whole database if we have another user with this name, last name, and date of birth. Also, we do not collect address on registration (this is pretty much it for personal data) just because our regulation doesn’t oblige us to do so.


    What we do instead is that we perform KYC check upon withdrawal, and yes we can find multiple accounts connected this or that way to a player’s account at this stage.


    But this system doesn’t send a signal every time system ‘catches' new multiple accounts. It just cannot work proactively as some might think: at least half of payment methods used by players are masked or not transferred to us at all by payment processing (Visa, MasterCard, Trustly, Sofort, Nordea, Solo, Neteller is also tricky for having both email and number ID as both possible options). Just to break it down when we have a card payment in details we see smth like 412312 XXXXX 1234. We do not have player’s full card number, what a surprise, that is exactly why we ask to cover those 6 digits as we do not see them. We can’t take payment details as 100% trigger to say whether an account is a duplicate or not. But yes it is taken into consideration, and if we suspect a player, we can send a request to the processing center, so that they can confirm that card details match or do not match, again not giving whole card number to us. So that is one of why’s’ this system doesn’t work like that.


    Also, there is one more point which everyone seems to forget. There are a lot of scenarios when player:
    1. signs up
    2. makes his/her first payment with fresh never used payment method (so we can’t say whether this is a duplicate account or not)
    3. makes his/her next payment with a payment method used with some other account (card payment for example, and yes we see that first 6 and last 4 digits match another card of another player account)
    4. requests withdrawal — so there is no way to say if he/she is a duplicate account holder until final KYC check performed upon withdrawal.


    I hope that gives at least some ideas of how the system works and why.
    We suppose it's a satisfying answer to all additional questions. So please let's discuss the topic offered in this thread. Hope the situation is clear now.

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    Great answer!

    As the saying is... every law has a loophole: one law for the rich, one for the poor. Cool!

    Hmmm, am I right in theese statements:

    1) Casino is not obliged to control incoming cash flow. Any fraud and unfair deposit will`be processed without any check.
    2) It`s impossible to catch suspicious payments. Casino has no full payment information but this info is enough to verify account.
    3) Casino allows MAs to play and LOSE (=casino`s profit) without any investigations.
    4) Unknown part of casino`s revenue (but I`m sure it`s known) must be payed backed to the people who used several accounts, deposited and lost money.

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    Let’s appeal to quite a natural law which says do not kill. If someone kills a person but doesn't get automatically and immediately struck by a lightning bolt that doesn’t mean that the law is wrong. It takes some time to investigate and catch a criminal.
    T&C are there to cover everything that is not automated, on the other hand, if everything was automated, then we would not need T&C at all. This conversation is going in some different direction now but not the initial. The user accusing us in a wrongful decision is wrong. Period.


    Answering you questions:
    1. deposits go through fraud control which eliminates fraudulent pattern transactions (like those when a user tries to deposit from a stolen card etc.), technology progresses towards more and more automation, but it doesn’t eliminate transactions attempts made in a natural way.
    2. account verification that we perform on sign up is email verification, and we also request name, last name, DoB but not verify it upon sign up (and no other casinos do that, at least among those that we know), payment methods are verified upon withdrawal request.
    3. casino allows any registered player to make deposits and play, correct, at this stage we do not know whether player (who agreed to T&C and claimed by that that he/she is not holding a duplicate account) is an MA or not
    4. please read T&C, it is all covered there.


    Please note that after your post http://ttrblog.su/forum/threads/otka...-14#post-52190 where you advise an abusive strategy to blog readers we are not going to answer your posts anymore.

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    Using the same card (or cards with matching 4 numbers at the end) for deposits to several accounts is "fraudulent pattern transaction". Period.

    You accept MAs (even when MA-fact is obvious) and let'em play till they lose. Two, three, ten accounts - doesn't matter for you if player make deposits and lose his money. Just don't win and no crime. It violates responsible gaming rules and ethics. Period.

    Your "imperfect system" (which is "blind" when you take money and instantly becomes Skynet when you need to pay winnings) under cover of Curacao's no-liability license gives you great infinite opportunities to turn the rules the side you want. Period.

    I repeat: formally you are right. TS is MA.

    But you violate gambling and business ethics: it is clear you knew about this player because he didn't hide anything and all his moves and transactions suited "fraudulent pattern". You must block 2nd and 3d account instantly. But you didn't and "swallowed" player's deposits one by one untill he'd won.

    So you should pay when the coin flips on the other side.

    "Abusing strategy"? Why do you think it's normal to use MA only for your profit? Play the rules you declared. It's fair.
    So I don't need your answers anymore. Everything is pretty clear.
    Last edited by Gamblaz; 27 September 2016 at 10:54 am.

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    As some of this is hard to read/understand, can someone just give me a little clarification of this situation?

    So did this player in fact take advantage of the first deposit bonus from the winning account? From what I could understand, the player says no but the casino has proof he did? If he did in fact take advantage of the first deposit bonus, I would side with the casino.

    It seems the player had made several deposits prior to winning. Even if the player did in fact take advantage of the first deposit bonus, is the casino refunding his prior deposits for this winning account?

    Then a general comment. While we all may have a particular online casino we like playing at, if I were a player who lost my login credentials I would give the casino more than 45 minutes to respond to inquiry to recover my information just to protect myself from this type of situation or I would choose to play at another online casino until I could recover my lost credentials. Any online casino player is aware of the strict policies set by online casinos regarding multiple accounts and especially claiming a first deposit bonus more than once. If no bonus was claimed, while against policy, an online casino could make an exception I think to the rule. However if a first deposit bonus was in fact taken advantage of with the multiple account, the casino would have every right not to pay the player. With that said, an online casino which may find itself in such a situation could refund deposits made prior to the winnings out of "good faith".
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    Hi TravG,

    Hope you are not a "voluntary lawer".

    As I`ve already said several times: casino is formally right accusing the TS in MA and bonus-hunting. No doubt. And refunding prior deposits isn`t a "good faith" but an oblige.

    The main question to the casino is: why didn`t they block 2nd and 3d account instantly? Those accounts had all signs of fraudulent activity from the very beginning.

    But casino easily got profit from all 3 accounts of the player - all his prior deposits were lost - untill he`d won a significant prize.

    What is the probability of any investigation in the case the TS`h lost money from the 3d account? In my opinion it equal or very-very close to 0%.

    It is a great contrary to the principles of fair play. Casino`s oblige is to prevent such situations. It`s a basic business ethics, isnt`it?

    Otherwise it`s called unjust enrichment.
    And "imperfect" regulation and allegedly "blind" security system let this casino make money this way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TravG View Post
    So did this player in fact take advantage of the first deposit bonus from the winning account? From what I could understand, the player says no but the casino has proof he did? If he did in fact take advantage of the first deposit bonus, I would side with the casino.
    Yes, he did. He got bonuses on the first deposit on duplicated accounts.

    Quote Originally Posted by TravG View Post
    It seems the player had made several deposits prior to winning. Even if the player did in fact take advantage of the first deposit bonus, is the casino refunding his prior deposits for this winning account?
    Yes, we refunded his deposits. Player confirmed that.


    Thank you for such a reasonable comment

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    Well, CASINO-X applies their rules as they want to. Its really hard to prove something due to the fact that they apply the rule that creation a double account is illegal. But now I want to discuss something else.
    Casino-X wrote to me an answer saying that they have given back all my deposits back, but IT’S A LIE!!!
    They wrote me about my three accounts: 1) my based one 2) first double account 3) second double account. They say that on both of my double accounts I have used bonuses. The difference between these two double accounts is only that on my second double account I have won 5 000 000 rubles.
    Lets establish a timeline.
    I was playing on my second double account. Administration blocked this account according to the rule 5.5 (about creating a double account), which means that I should receive all my deposits back. Then CASINO X started to blame me that im a lier and a cheater.


    They made a public statement that my double accounts are actually DOUBLE-accounts.
    Also in a topic GPWA there was a question “Why this account wasn’t blocked immediately?” and casino X answer like that “we don’t have a capacity for checking accounts immediately”. OK, lets try to believe in that.
    But I still have a question. Why can I still log in to my first double account after all of this. The administration made it clear that they know about two of my double accounts and they are using this information in order to block my winning account.


    I asked customer service – WHY CAN I STILL LOG IN to my first double account? And then I received an answer from administration that they might block account or they might not, they do it if they want to. That’s why they didn’t block my first double account.
    While we were discussing this issue with them they have blocked my first double account, saying that the reason for that is because the account is a double. But when I asked why I didn’t receive my deposits back, (like with my winning double account where they have sent me back my deposits), I received an answer “ wait a response from the administration”.
    Today I have received an answer from them. It turns out that my first double account wasn’t blocked because it’s a double, it was blocked according to the rule 29.8 (in case CASINO X thinks that im trying cheat with COMP-points they can block my account for some period of time or block it permanently. In that case CASINO X do no have to give my money back except my first deposit).
    So, once again, the main difference between my first double acc. And my second double acc. Is that on the second one I have won 5000000 rubles. But the first one they have banned according to one rule, and the second one they have banned according to another rule. They say that on both of these accounts I have used bonuses, but the only difference is that the second one is the winning one.
    I have spent to many nerves and time on this situation. Im tired of all this circus. I just want people who play there to see this post, so they would know that CASINO X uses their rules as they want to and block accounts when they want to.
    I hope that they will be eventually blocked for doing this things.
    I have got all the proves for this situation (im doing screenshots now and save all logs and send it to my email all the time)

  20. #17
    Katja_PoshFriends's Avatar
    Katja_PoshFriends is offline Sponsor Affiliate Program
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    To make this situation clear, I will try to explain once again.

    Player had three active accounts, Acc1 (the initial one), Acc2 and Acc3 (where he won 5kk rubles).

    Acc3 was blocked due to rule 5.5 (creating duplicated accounts) and we refunded all the player’s deposits (according to the same rule).

    Acc2 was blocked due to rule 29.8 (bonus abusing; Player got welcome bonuses on duplicated accounts) and the initial deposit was refunded.

    Acc1 was blocked due to rule 12.5

    12.5 The Company may terminate Your Account (including your username and password) immediately without notice:12.5.3. If Your Account is associated with, or related to, existing blocked accounts, we may terminate Your Account, irrespective of the nature of this relationship, and the registration details provided on said accounts; or for any other reason we see fit. Save for as otherwise provided herein, on termination any balance in Your Account will be returned to you within a reasonable time of your request, subject always to our right to deduct any amounts owed by you to us;

    Casino takes into account only the facts. The fact is that Player had duplicated accounts and was blocked according to rules he had agreed with at the registration.

    P. S. We want to remind, that we’re affiliate program and this issue has no connection to our work with webmasters. All 3 accounts were not registered under any afiliate link. We kindly ask @retracted to contact specialized resources. GPWA is an affiliate community, not the players’ one.



    Last edited by Katja_PoshFriends; 4 October 2016 at 10:55 am.

  21. #18
    BlackMilk is offline New Member
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    It is entirely correct that the information coincides in all of three accounts. The player has used the bonus in all of three accounts.
    Why does one acc has been suspended for one rule, and one on the other, because the bonus was taken on both? On acc 2 and 3?

  22. #19
    vtyunby65 is offline Public Member
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    No, that doesn't make sense!

  23. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katja_PoshFriends View Post
    We kindly ask @retracted to contact specialized resources. GPWA is an affiliate community, not the players’ one.
    Casino`s reputation doubts and double standards concern either players or affiliates.

    In your case each rule has exceptions in favor of the casino/ap. And if exception doesn`t work new eception suddenly appears.

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