Results 1 to 13 of 13
  1. #1
    universal4's Avatar
    universal4 is offline Forum Administrator
    Join Date
    July 2003
    Location
    Sinking Faster, just when I thought it couldn't get worse it did!
    Posts
    25,173
    Thanks
    1,520
    Thanked 7,081 Times in 4,506 Posts

    Default Cheating suit filed against Phil Ivey by Borgata Casino

    http://news.yahoo.com/borgata-casino...204337332.html

    I know high rollers can get many things in a casino, but why any dealer would change the method of dealing or flipping cards for any player, just seems out of line to me.

    Rick
    Universal4

  2. #2
    Caruso is offline Public Member
    Join Date
    August 2003
    Location
    England
    Posts
    876
    Thanks
    5
    Thanked 405 Times in 212 Posts

    Default

    AGAIN????????????????????????????

    Phil baby, get a grip. Play some poker.

  3. #3
    thepogg's Avatar
    thepogg is offline Private Member
    Join Date
    August 2011
    Posts
    710
    Blog Entries
    8
    Thanks
    284
    Thanked 620 Times in 303 Posts

    Default

    This is an utter nonsense and it's disappointing to see the Borgata engaging in it.

    To give answer to why casinos allow high rollers to do these things - Baccarat espeically attracts a lot of Asians whales. I don't like racially pigeon-holing a people, but Asians do tend to be far more superstitious and often far more valuable gamblers than other social sectors. As such the casinos have developed strategies to accommodate these superstitions, allowing high rollers to request a change of table, deck, dealer or allowing them to define how many cards to burn or whether the players cards are dealt face up or face down. Basically anything they don't deem to be procedurally important.

    The hard truth here is that nothing Ivey did was outside of the procedures the casino allows. They requested an automatic shuffler and they ask the dealer to turn certain cards round 180 degrees. If the casino failed to inspect their cards sufficiently, that's their problem, they didn't have to allow Ivey and his team mate to make use of these other procedures.

    Edge sorting is an old and well known play - I think the first time I read about it was in John May's 'Get the Edge at Blackjack' and my print of that was released in 2001, and you can bet it was getting used for at least 20 years before it ever made it to print - this shouldn't have been a difficult play to work out. Add to that Ivey's current suit against Crockfords as they've withheld his winning generated EXACTLY the same way and this is just sheer incompetence on the part of the Borgata.

    Imo, the Borgata are only filing this suit in the hopes that the UK courts rule against Ivey. That would maybe lend their case some weight. Without it I can't see how any court is going to rule in their favour (assuming of course that all the details have been printed and Ivey wasn't using devices, or accomplices in staff or off table - but I can't see how any of those things would be necessary for this play).

    I really liked the AC Borgata, but this is very disappointing.
    Last edited by thepogg; 13 April 2014 at 2:30 pm.
    Casino Reviews, Casino Complaints, Terms and Conditions Monitoring and the biggest Slots RTP resource on the web -
    thepogg.com - POGGWebmasters.com

    ThePOGG Auditing Service

    "I've got nothing left, It's kind of wonderful, 'Cause there's nothing they can take away"

    Broken Bells

  4. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to thepogg For This Useful Post:

    -Shay- (13 April 2014), ocreditor (16 April 2014), universal4 (13 April 2014)

  5. #4
    thepogg's Avatar
    thepogg is offline Private Member
    Join Date
    August 2011
    Posts
    710
    Blog Entries
    8
    Thanks
    284
    Thanked 620 Times in 303 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by thepogg View Post
    Add to that Ivey's current suit against Crockfords as they've withheld his winning generated EXACTLY the same way and this is just sheer incompetence on the part of the Borgata.
    Actually this part is somewhat irrelevant. Having just looked at the dates the Crockfords incident happened in Aug 2012 and the Borgata Apr-Oct 2012, so both happened around the same time. As such, the media coverage of one wouldn't have reached the other so unless Crockfords share info with the Borgata, neither would have got any indication from the other as to this play.
    Casino Reviews, Casino Complaints, Terms and Conditions Monitoring and the biggest Slots RTP resource on the web -
    thepogg.com - POGGWebmasters.com

    ThePOGG Auditing Service

    "I've got nothing left, It's kind of wonderful, 'Cause there's nothing they can take away"

    Broken Bells

  6. #5
    Caruso is offline Public Member
    Join Date
    August 2003
    Location
    England
    Posts
    876
    Thanks
    5
    Thanked 405 Times in 212 Posts

    Default

    I gave my own thoughts on this a while back:

    http://www.hundredpercentgambling.co...icle.php?id=65

    I initially felt he wasn't owed, which I modified to "owed but I won't lose any sleep if they don't pay him" after a closer look.

    I remain of the same opinion. Ivey gives even us gamblers as far removed from him as possible on almost every level a bad name.

  7. #6
    Tom Givony is offline Former AM
    Join Date
    October 2013
    Posts
    10
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default

    Unbelievable. The guy has so much money and has to steal more ! There's no end to greediness !

  8. #7
    thepogg's Avatar
    thepogg is offline Private Member
    Join Date
    August 2011
    Posts
    710
    Blog Entries
    8
    Thanks
    284
    Thanked 620 Times in 303 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Givony View Post
    Unbelievable. The guy has so much money and has to steal more ! There's no end to greediness !
    Using words like "steal" in situations like this is what gets casinos and their associates a bad name al la Griffin Investigations.
    Casino Reviews, Casino Complaints, Terms and Conditions Monitoring and the biggest Slots RTP resource on the web -
    thepogg.com - POGGWebmasters.com

    ThePOGG Auditing Service

    "I've got nothing left, It's kind of wonderful, 'Cause there's nothing they can take away"

    Broken Bells

  9. #8
    thepogg's Avatar
    thepogg is offline Private Member
    Join Date
    August 2011
    Posts
    710
    Blog Entries
    8
    Thanks
    284
    Thanked 620 Times in 303 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Caruso View Post
    I gave my own thoughts on this a while back:

    http://www.hundredpercentgambling.co...icle.php?id=65

    I initially felt he wasn't owed, which I modified to "owed but I won't lose any sleep if they don't pay him" after a closer look.

    I remain of the same opinion. Ivey gives even us gamblers as far removed from him as possible on almost every level a bad name.
    That was a pretty good assessment of the situation. It's hard to feel sorry for Ivey - this is a person who's independently very very wealthy and doesn't really need to be pulling this type of stunt - but ultimately there's nothing illegal about what Ivey and his partner were doing and such should be paid. In fact in many ways it's far cleaner than the likes of hole carding - if either casino actually had someone on staff who actually knew what they were doing in terms of game protection they would have picked this type of play off in less than a couple of hours, it's slap in the face obvious where a player is asking for the rotation of certain cards that you should observe which cards are getting rotated and ensure that doesn't get maintained through the shuffle.
    Casino Reviews, Casino Complaints, Terms and Conditions Monitoring and the biggest Slots RTP resource on the web -
    thepogg.com - POGGWebmasters.com

    ThePOGG Auditing Service

    "I've got nothing left, It's kind of wonderful, 'Cause there's nothing they can take away"

    Broken Bells

  10. #9
    universal4's Avatar
    universal4 is offline Forum Administrator
    Join Date
    July 2003
    Location
    Sinking Faster, just when I thought it couldn't get worse it did!
    Posts
    25,173
    Thanks
    1,520
    Thanked 7,081 Times in 4,506 Posts

    Default

    Thanks Pogg, that was a pretty good explanation to justify the motives I questioned. I admit that when I posted the above I did not stop and think about it in that light, I still don't know how I feel about the balance though.

    Rick
    Universal4

  11. #10
    justbookies is offline Private Member
    Join Date
    September 2009
    Posts
    1,282
    Thanks
    516
    Thanked 860 Times in 509 Posts

    Default

    In sports betting (certainly in the UK) all bookmakers have the 'palpable error' rule. If the bookmaker makes an error, say accidentally posts odds of 100/1 instead of 10/1 (and takes bets at 100/1) then they reserve the right to make the correction at a later date and correct the 'palpable error' that has been made.

    In this case has the casino made a palpable error by allowing a client an unfair advantage? If there was this error, caused by the fact the backs of the cards were not uniform, then don't they reserve the right to correct that error? Or are they simply squealing because they lost so much money, albeit unfairly?

    While the client has done nothing 'illegal' or 'fraudulent' (I would argue) there was a palpable error by the casino (using cards that allowed someone to rig the game against them) which maybe they should have a right to correct?

    I almost want to say shouldn't it be a level playing field, except we know the odds for the casino's clients are never a level playing field.

  12. #11
    thepogg's Avatar
    thepogg is offline Private Member
    Join Date
    August 2011
    Posts
    710
    Blog Entries
    8
    Thanks
    284
    Thanked 620 Times in 303 Posts

    Default

    The palpable error rule is in place to prevent human error and usually enforced before the event actually takes place (when the bookies see all the sharp players piling in and the money gets distorted very very quickly), but more than anything it's actually an error rather than a breakdown in process. Someone did a typo and the wrong odds went up. The bookie never intended to offer those odds in the first place and it is a one off - i.e. if they made the same error in the same place bet after bet after bet questions would start to be asked as to whether this was an error rather than simply incompetence.

    In this case this wasn't the same kind of error and resides far closer to incompetence. Yeah, of course the casino never meant to let the player beat them but they have processes in place to prevent these type of advantage being offered. Perhaps it could be argued that putting these cards into play in the first place was an error - though the dealers/pitboss/shift boss/floor manager/casino manager, a good number of whom would be present for play of this level, should all be trained to spot defects like this before the cards are played - but to allow this play to go on and on for hours on end over several nights while a player makes suspicious use of the casino's discretionary policies and wins and win is incompetence on the casino's part rather than human error. In both cases the casino dropped there guard and failed to do the proper checks simply because of who was playing, when any casino manager worth his salt would be more insistent on full checks being conducted on high rollers of this level regardless of who they are.

    Moreover this type of play has certainly been ruled legal in at least the US. Specifically I reference hole carding here - the practice of looking for a dealer at a card game that doesn't sufficiently protect their down card/s allowing a player to catch a glimpse of one or more before playing their hand. Again it could be viewed that the dealer has made an 'error' here, but again the type of error is different to a palpable bookie error. The error isn't actually that the dealer is showing the card, the error is that the casino failed to adequately train the dealer to protect the card and that the dealer's line managers were either too lazy to pick this up or insufficiently trained to spot a weak dealer. When taken to court these type of plays have been viewed as failures by the casino to adequately train their staff rather than any fault on the player's part.

    I'd be pressed to give examples off the top of my head, but 'Beat the Player' by Bob Nersesian and 'Blackjack and the Law' by I. Nelson Rose and Robert A. Loeb give insight into how the US courts have handled these situations in the past and imo it doesn't bode well for the Borgata's action. Again personal opinion, I think the Borgata suit is only in place in the hopes that the Crockfords suit in the UK is ruled in favour of the casino, which may give them precedent to press on. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the Borgata drops their suit before it's heard in the event of Ivey successfully suing Crockfords, which again I think is the likely outcome.
    Casino Reviews, Casino Complaints, Terms and Conditions Monitoring and the biggest Slots RTP resource on the web -
    thepogg.com - POGGWebmasters.com

    ThePOGG Auditing Service

    "I've got nothing left, It's kind of wonderful, 'Cause there's nothing they can take away"

    Broken Bells

  13. The Following User Says Thank You to thepogg For This Useful Post:

    -Shay- (13 April 2014)

  14. #12
    sweetbet's Avatar
    sweetbet is offline Private Member
    Join Date
    November 2012
    Posts
    2,694
    Blog Entries
    5
    Thanks
    840
    Thanked 1,504 Times in 1,041 Posts

    Default

    If Ivey had lost a few million dollars, would the casino have returned his money because they were using a deck of playing cards with a manufacturing fault?
    Sweet Bet - Reviews of reputable online casinos, poker sites, sportsbooks & bingo halls
    USA Online Casinos | Canadian Online Casinos | Bitcoin Casinos | Live Dealer Casinos | Free Spin Casinos | US Online Casinos | Just HODL Crypto

  15. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to sweetbet For This Useful Post:

    -Shay- (13 April 2014), joert (14 April 2014), ocreditor (16 April 2014), thepogg (13 April 2014)

  16. #13
    universal4's Avatar
    universal4 is offline Forum Administrator
    Join Date
    July 2003
    Location
    Sinking Faster, just when I thought it couldn't get worse it did!
    Posts
    25,173
    Thanks
    1,520
    Thanked 7,081 Times in 4,506 Posts

    Default

    It's too bad that most other media outlouts do not try and look at both sides the way we do here.

    I wonder if the casino has now changed it's policy on this and whether they will become more pro-active in the future before waiting until a player is so far ahead.

    Rick
    Universal4

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •