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Thread: Committed fraud

  1. #21
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    In one example (4Q and OT) you're a law-abiding citizen who states companies' rules are there to be followed. In another example you're calling a reputable company "crooks", "thieves", etc. although they were following their own rule which is stated above in my post.

    You're no longer on the side of "rules being rules"?

    That's called having double standards. A person who does that is called a hypocrite.

    We don't know what your traffic is. We don't know your website, your name, not even your country. You're not even a member. You came out of the blue a year ago and you're bashing operators and crying wolf, usually for your own agenda - in this case, your agenda is to protect arb players. Nobody knows who you are. So when you say something like "they will miss my traffic" you just look ridiculous.

    All I know is that, whatever your website(s) or business(es) may be, they don't have a GPWA badge on them.

    And WH, however bad they may be, are listed on the London Stock Exchange. They went public. You did not dare.

  2. #22
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    A question for WH, namely Nadav and Efi:

    Did you keep the 50k from the player?

  3. #23
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    Hi all,

    I will try to quickly touch on the relevant points from the most recent posts on this thread, especially the ones from DanHorvat and Sherlock.

    - The discussion with FMecan is still ongoing and we're looking into settling this issue. The reason it was taken of the forum is that we do not want to risk revealing any of our arbitrage detection methods here on the forum, the reasons for that should be clear.

    - Arbitrage is not classified as fraud. However, William Hill do not accept/pay for arbitrage players. It is our right to decide we don't take players who abuse our odds, whether it's in combination with odds from another bookie or not. ALL of our affiliates are aware of that, and FMecan is not the 1st or 2nd case where we haven't paid for arbitrage players.

    - As for the process and the player's funds. Once an arbitrage pattern is detected by our traders, the player account is monitored by the traders for a while. They then have the call to freeze/close accounts. Usually (depending on a few factors) they would pay out and then suspend the account, or set the bet factor very low so that the player can keep playing.

    Thanks,

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by NHLinden View Post
    - Arbitrage is not classified as fraud. However, William Hill do not accept/pay for arbitrage players. It is our right to decide we don't take players who abuse our odds, whether it's in combination with odds from another bookie or not. ALL of our affiliates are aware of that, and FMecan is not the 1st or 2nd case where we haven't paid for arbitrage players.
    sorry, I am staying out the discussion and waiting for a solution, but can't shut up when you again make a case that is not there and that involves ME and my behaviour.
    You are actually admitting that you are not sticking to your t&cs...what you are saying is "there is no rule in the terms and conditions, but we are doing it this way". Really??
    I didn't meet a single affiliate from Germany who was aware of that not existing rule, so please, stop this kind of statements and trust me, I surely know nearly every sportsbetting affiliate in Germany, so I asked.

    @Dan: your idea to beat sherlock up here is strange, because you are abusing another issue to just have your fight with him, that is based on another fight. Since Nadav wrote by himself, that arbing is not fraud, you should understand that your quoted term makes no sense and this is exactly what I am saying all the time.

    At NO time I am saying anyone should accept an arbitraging affiliate (we all know how this looks like: one small fake player, one big player with one bet month, etc, etc), but all this was ot the case...

    Quote Originally Posted by NHLinden View Post
    - As for the process and the player's funds. Once an arbitrage pattern is detected by our traders, the player account is monitored by the traders for a while. They then have the call to freeze/close accounts. Usually (depending on a few factors) they would pay out and then suspend the account, or set the bet factor very low so that the player can keep playing.


    you are making here again the same impression that you did when we started the discussion. You pay out if there is anything to pay out. you are implying that every arber is a winner, so you will pay him at the end. in this case, you RECEIVER the 50k, so you were in front. this is what Dan was asking. Are you going to resettle his bets or make them void and pay him the money back? no you won't is the answer and the reason starts with the regulations in UK and GIB and goes on with the simple "it is now WH money" (and I agree)

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  6. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by FMecan View Post
    @Dan: your idea to beat sherlock up here is strange, because you are abusing another issue to just have your fight with him, that is based on another fight. Since Nadav wrote by himself, that arbing is not fraud, you should understand that your quoted term makes no sense and this is exactly what I am saying all the time.
    Let me explain my position. I don't have an opinion on whether a bookie should accept arbers or not. But I'm recognizing your right to challenge the rule.

    In this case, the key question is did WH keep the 50k. Nadav implied they generally shouldn't and wouldn't, but I'd like to hear an explicit answer for this particular case so I can make up my mind about WH.

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    Hi,

    FMecan, you're case is still in process as you know, so I can't give you a definite and final answer as for the funds just yet.
    Once we have a final answer I'm sure you'll be updated.

    I have to add, every sports affiliate (we barely have any left in Germany as we don't take German sports players, so only those with none German traffic) knows we don't pay on arb players.
    the fraud clause (although not mentioning fraud specifically) was mentioned as it allows us to hold any payment in case we suspect something is wrong, arb included.

    Thanks,

  9. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanHorvat View Post
    In this case, the key question is did WH keep the 50k.
    Of course they kept the money. You think they are going to refund the player 50k? If they are an arber you can assume that they won 51k or more through other bookies during the same period. The player would love that.

    They cannot even know for sure if any player is an arber, unless they share information with other sites which would be a violation of privacy laws in any country they are regulated. The only way they could be certain, is if the player tried to arbitrage by making 2 bets on the same event at William Hill, in which case they are stupid and unlikely to be successful in the long run, and they still racked up 50k in losses.

    The reality is that if this is not some creative attempt at shaving, WH are only guessing that its an arber as opposed to a value bettor based on the bets made after the fact when they compare odds and realise that the event was an opportunity for arbitrage. This has nothing to do with fraud as has now been admitted by the rep, and earlier attempts to post irrelevant clauses from the T&Cs concerning fraud were nothing but a poor attempt at obfuscating and derailing the issue.

    These guys have been dodgy for years ever since they outsourced their affiliate operations to the company formerly known as cpays, and refused to pay the lady that had $2 million stolen from her by a casino that they acquired a few months prior to the acquisition. Their affiliate program is rated as predatory by Affiliate Guard Dog. Do yourself a favour and ignore the platinum / gold / silver status here which is an utterly meaningless paid sponsorship that implies nothing about the quality of the affiliate program, and next time check an independent source and the forums before working with programs like this. I feel sorry for you FMecan, but I am not surprised, and it should come as no surprise to anyone else to see this sort of thing happening. I sincerely hope that the public shaming is enough to make them do the right thing, but I highly doubt it.

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  11. #28
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    If the player did not get a refund, the affiliate should be compensated.

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  13. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by NHLinden View Post

    1. 3.5No Fraud
    2. 3.5.1The Affiliate will not engage in, allow, assist, promote, encourage or benefit from, directly or indirectly, any act or traffic that involves Fraud. The Affiliate will act at all times to refrain from, immediately stop and not allow any act or traffic that involves Fraud or that it believes or should reasonably believe to potentially involve Fraud, or any act or traffic that the Operator informs the Affiliate is suspected by it, at its discretion, to involve or potentially involve Fraud.
    3. 3.5.2In the event that the Operator suspects Fraud it reserves the right to place restrictions on the Affiliate’s account including but not limited to suspending the Affiliate’s account and retaining all sums within the account as well as commencing a full investigation. The Affiliate hereby gives the Operator its authorisation to inform the appropriate authorities or third parties of such an incident and only once the Operator is satisfied that the matter is resolved shall it remove any restrictions on the Affiliate’s account.
    The issue with these terms is that they all discuss "fraud" where WH are discussing arbitrage betting. This is a mistake that's FAR too frequently made in the gambling industry - throwing the word "fraud" around any time the vendor does not like the way a player has bet. If WH are being accurate in identifying this player as arbitrage bettor and do not have any evidence to support claims of actual criminal activity, no court in the jurisdictions where they operate would uphold their interpretation of the word "fraud". As such the terms that are being cited don't hold valid justification for failure to pay the affiliate.

    It should also be noted that throwing words like fraud around without being certain that what the player did actually constitutes fraud could potentially carry its own legal pitfalls. If the player actually challenged the sportsbook in a courtroom - given that the terms that are being applied do not specifically prohibit what they were doing and instead are being used as a catch all 'we don't like the way you play' clause - there's a very real chance that WH would end up having to pay out. Certainly if I was approached by a player who was being denied payment for this reason I'd encourage them to seek legal advice.

    Another questionable facet of this story - these terms are more frequently used against bonus players and in those instances it almost always in a situation where someone's hit a big win. In these sort of casino cases the casino actively have either lost money or broke even as they're not paying the player. No profit for the vendor = no profit for the affiliate and in these cases, as long as the affiliate program actually modify the stats accordingly, the affiliate does benefit from having these players removed from their figures. In an instance were the vendor has made a substantial sum of money off the player then decided to show them the door the only ethical grounds for not paying the affiliate is if they're returning the player's losses.

    Of course all of this is subject to whether or not the word fraud is being used accurately. It's always possible that WH simply don't want to discuss the real reasons they punted this player (though it would be odd to go on about arbing if that's the case).
    Last edited by thepogg; 22 December 2014 at 1:24 pm.
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  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by NHLinden View Post
    Hi,

    FMecan, you're case is still in process as you know, so I can't give you a definite and final answer as for the funds just yet.
    Once we have a final answer I'm sure you'll be updated.

    I have to add, every sports affiliate (we barely have any left in Germany as we don't take German sports players, so only those with none German traffic) knows we don't pay on arb players.
    the fraud clause (although not mentioning fraud specifically) was mentioned as it allows us to hold any payment in case we suspect something is wrong, arb included.

    Thanks,
    Yes, but I will react if something here is posted....wrong.

    - No, I spoke to several German affiliates and I am talking about the bigger ones and no one "knows" you are not paying for arbitrage players....only thing I know is that you tried talking them into removing arbers from trackers to "help" them. no "rule" or anything.
    - the fraud clause is out here...you can't pick a clause because you like the "hold any payment" and then just say "we are using this"...

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    Quote Originally Posted by -Shay- View Post
    If the player did not get a refund, the affiliate should be compensated.
    This pretty much sums it up.

  18. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by -Shay- View Post
    If the player did not get a refund, the affiliate should be compensated.
    exactly.

    If they decided to keep the money ( which is obvious they did ), then they should pay FMecan fair and square.

    Otherwise they should refund the player.
    Last edited by Zuga; 24 December 2014 at 11:30 am. Reason: spelling
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    Quote Originally Posted by NHLinden View Post
    Hi all,

    I will try to quickly touch on the relevant points from the most recent posts on this thread, especially the ones from DanHorvat and Sherlock.

    - The discussion with FMecan is still ongoing and we're looking into settling this issue. The reason it was taken of the forum is that we do not want to risk revealing any of our arbitrage detection methods here on the forum, the reasons for that should be clear.

    - Arbitrage is not classified as fraud. However, William Hill do not accept/pay for arbitrage players. It is our right to decide we don't take players who abuse our odds, whether it's in combination with odds from another bookie or not. ALL of our affiliates are aware of that, and FMecan is not the 1st or 2nd case where we haven't paid for arbitrage players.

    - As for the process and the player's funds. Once an arbitrage pattern is detected by our traders, the player account is monitored by the traders for a while. They then have the call to freeze/close accounts. Usually (depending on a few factors) they would pay out and then suspend the account, or set the bet factor very low so that the player can keep playing.

    Thanks,
    one of my costumers in arb player, and hes my friend, i ask them regarding limits and account problems, and surprised to hear that after some time willhill increase their betting limit So now they can place larger bets, i check my affiliate account and see that i also have 100000$ payout limit. How its can be

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