Dancing Around the Truth About CardSpike

[MichaelCorfman]

I could care less what you think so why don't you shut your pie hole when it comes to ME and find someone else to mess with because I don't answer to YOU.

Great response LMAO - and its exactly what I expected.

GamTrak and arkyt,

You each have very different opinions, and are passionate about how you feel. And I value each of you for that.

But I do not value it, nor do I think anyone else here does, when the passionate opinions reduce to statements that express opinions solely by disrespect for the opinions of the other.

I know you can each be better than that. I know that each of you are better than that.

Michael

[Betpartners]

Thanks Jack, fair comment, though i think you will see that my point was that Michael could have given that concrete proof to gambling911 and exonerated you of any allegations of being biased.

Well looks like it may be coming to an conclusion anyway according to GamTraks post

If his health was effected thats a shame, the way this whole thing has played out was always going to end with casulaties.

Maybe now is the time for this all to be brought to a peaceful conclusion before too much damage is done

just my 2 cents

[Integrity]

Professor Signing Off:

After the all the negative press and activity of the past few months I have decided it's probably best for the community moving forward if I left. For whatever reason I create too much of a distraction and raise too many questions by even being here anymore. I know many believe I am some kind of monster now and even my old friends have fallen silent in support (Other than BB1 Thanks Steve). I will do whats best and simply move on. It's been a great run and I truly enjoyed it. I met some of the best people I have ever known through CAP and it's taken me wonderful places around the world. I would rather remember it fondly then grow bitter and forget all the good we have done together.

I have always loved this business and loved CAP, it's been my baby for so many years and it's hard to let go. But now its turned into a nightmare thats damaging my health and something I dread getting up to. Unfortunately I have already purchased tickets to London and have a hotel room booked so I may go, but even if I do this is my last appearance at the events. I will also be turning over the reins here to a younger team and staff with fresh ideas that can keep CAP moving in a positive direction. I sincerely hope everyone finds them more agreeable to work with. It's time for me to move on.

God bless all my friends and have a prosperous 2009. I am certain we will see a major surge of business in the latter quarters of the year and the new CAP will be here to help you make the most of that opportunity.

source

I cannot say I am suprised at all.

Please do not take this as being cold or uncaring, because I have always said that I like Lou as a person, but his business practices discust me... however...

Lou is vanishing because he doesn't want to face the music. It's just that simple. He's been caught and instead of having transparancy and being honest he will again paint himself as a victim.

No matter what he says, he will still be at the helm... just invisible.

[Betpartners]

Jack with all respect and i mean that, youre last post just underlines why someone less involved on an emotional level should have investiagted and reported on this sorry saga

[arkyt]

GamTrak and arkyt,

You each have very different opinions, and are passionate about how you feel. And I value each of you for that.

But I do not value it, nor do I think anyone else here does, when the passionate opinions reduce to statements that express opinions solely by disrespect for the opinions of the other.

I know you can each be better than that. I know that each of you are better than that.

Michael

Ok, I guess my initial post was deserving of the response it received ... therefore I am partially to blame - yah ok - smack my hand too, because that makes it all fair.

[arkyt]

Jack with all respect and i mean that, youre last post just underlines why someone less involved on an emotional level should have investiagted and reported on this sorry saga

Anyone who has been around long enough knows everything he posted is accurate.

Everytime a little heat has come down on CAP, Lou has made public statements that he was closing CAP, or leaving for good, or this or that ... its happened at least 2 other times in the last 3-4 years that I can recall. Every time he stayed right where he said he was leaving ...

[mojo]

Jack with all respect and i mean that, youre last post just underlines why someone less involved on an emotional level should have investiagted and reported on this sorry saga

Whether there is truth that the professor is stepping down or not, the fact is that the APCW and GPWA did an outstanding job digging for the truth that is so sorely needed in this industry. No more lies, no more hiding, no third parties needed.

[Integrity]

Jack with all respect and i mean that, youre last post just underlines why someone less involved on an emotional level should have investiagted and reported on this sorry saga

With all due respect back at ya, by your own admission you really don't have a lot of experience with this side of the industry. As a result, I believe you are a bit more easily persuaded by the textbook tactics employed by Mr Fabiano.

First, absolute denial. Second, attack the credibility of the accuser. Third, play the victim. Then lastly, exercise your right not to incriminate yourself. Johnnie Cochran would be proud.

I think if you had been dealing with these guys for a few years and had seen the things many of us have, you too would be a bit more jaded and skeptical of what they have said.

It's somewhat understandable --- but a little irritating --- that you would imply that I cannot report on this story because I have an emotional attachment to it. In fact, the only proven liars here are Lou and Warren, and it would be refreshing to have you acknowledge that the only deception has been on their part... not ours.

Most any journalist or reproter has an emotional attachemnet to a story at some time or another. In fact, that's part of what makes our videos popular: We capture and share the same emotions of so many others in this industry who were also wronged by these two thugs.

[MichaelCorfman]

Thanks Jack, fair comment, though i think you will see that my point was that Michael could have given that concrete proof to gambling911 and exonerated you of any allegations of being biased.

Well, I'm sitting here LMAO after reading that, and if there was any question, we all know now that we have to take you at your word without a shadow of a doubt that you are new to some of these forums and information sites.

Gambling911 is known for being first out of the gate with stories that might or might not prove to be true after further investigation. They are both loved and hated for that. But no matter what you think of them, everyone will agree they are a place for sensationalism more than impeccable conservative and reasoned logic.

And I'm someone that rather enjoys watching what they report since they do have a good pulse on many interesting facts and rumors.

Michael

[Fergie]

OH, come on now. Lou will be back! He'll lay low while his supporters rally around and make dozens and dozens of tearful and heartfelt posts that will 'convince' him to fight the good fight and return to CAP!

[GamTrak]

GamTrak and arkyt,

You each have very different opinions, and are passionate about how you feel. And I value each of you for that.

But I do not value it, nor do I think anyone else here does, when the passionate opinions reduce to statements that express opinions solely by disrespect for the opinions of the other.

I know you can each be better than that. I know that each of you are better than that.

Michael

I'm sorry Michael, I will try to not do that in the furture and put that person on ignore.

[Dominique]

I am travelling and admit to not having read the entire book that makes this thread, but I think I caught the essentials when I skimmed. If I don't have my facts straight, I am sure someone will correct me asap.

But I do have something to say here that I think is being overshadowed by all the recent developments.

I have volunteered at CAP messageboards as moderator for many, many years.

I have done so because I am willing to go the extra mile to try to create a level playing field for AFFILIATES in this unregulated industry.

Affiliates have no rights, no legal recourse and are effectively at the mercy of affiliate programs when it comes to being paid according to contract.

I have found the CAP message boards and community of affiliates to be a very effective way to ensure we all work in a decent environment despite the lawless nature of the industry.

I was at CAP since it's inception, before even the inception of GPWA, when it was but a tiny message board with a handful of posters talking about their business.

While I am not part of the parent company who provides the message board and a lot of other services, I do consider the community my home.

I don't frequent PAP, another message board managed by the same company, so I don't know first hand what went down there. It looks like some people with no understanding that a community consists of it's members used some heavy handed tactics to direct things their way. This is completely out of tune wiith the nature of communities and caused huge problems, and if anyone had asked me I could have told them that beforehand.

What bothers me is that an entire community is being blamed for actions the company providing software and services may have done.

Like all other affiliate communities (and this is the reason I love this industry) the CAP message board is home to a community of inventive, intelligent, outspoken individuals. Affiliates are a uniquely enterprising bunch and as a group are some of the most stimulating, exciting and straight thinking group of people I have ever encountered.

This is no different at CAP from any other community.

CAP has had a huge influence on the welfare of affiliates over the years. We have solved dozens of payment issues and in the last few years corrected numerous breaches of contract successfully. In an idustry that operates in a grey area and is not regulated and provides no legal recourse for affiliates, this is, to me, the first and foremost thing affiliates need to concern themselves with. My strong belief in this has been the foundation for all these years of my volunteering.

As far as this whole cardspike thing is concerned, I do see it as the business of the CAP community to see to it that everyone is paid, the entire point of the communityy is to stick together to effect ethical treatment of affiliates.

As far as business dealings of the parent company - that is between them and the operators they deal with.

I want to draw a clear line here - affiliates are affiliates, regardless of where they hang out. We all are in the same boat and our businesses are subject to the same obstacles. We all need each other. Only together can we effect an even playing field and ethical treatment by affiliate programs.

Message boards are communities. Affiliates make up the communities, and they can make or break them. It's all about affiliates.

Both GPWA and CAP have companies provide the communities with a platform for communication and various other services.

Are the affiliates responsible for the actions of the provider of their platform? NO. Can the provider of the platform control the community? NO. That was clearly shown at PAP, or even at the old GPWA, before the current parent company took over.

To make a long story short, I take offense at the constant "CAP" did this and "CAP" did that. CAP did nothing but discuss affiliate issues among each other. CAP is some 8000 individuals. CAP is a community and not a company.

People grossly under estimate the positive influence the affiliate community has had on the way we all as affiliates can do business today. By forming communities, affiliates can and have set standards of conduct for affiliate programs. Every single affiliate has benefitted from the efforts of the community.

Personally, I could care less who consults whom and who runs what business, as long as affiliates are treated fairly. The programs may feel differently and that is their issue.

This whole "war" in the affiliate industry is disruptive and unproductive and downright dangerous. Affiliates are infighting, and infighting is always destructive. It makes no sense.

I am travelling and won't be around to discuss all of this, and frankly, I have no interest in taking part in this whole thing. You can count me out. When there are issues of breach of contract and non payment by affiliate programs, you can count me in to help fix the issue. I believe in fixing things, not destroying them.

All I ask is that you name things by their correct name, if you talk about GPWA and CAP and PAP and other message boards, you are talking about affiliate communities, not the companies who provide software and services to the communities.

[thepokerkeep]

I don't frequent PAP, another message board managed by the same company, so I don't know first hand what went down there. It looks like some people with no understanding that a community consists of it's members used some heavy handed tactics to direct things their way. This is completely out of tune wiith the nature of communities and caused huge problems, and if anyone had asked me I could have told them that beforehand.

This statement is completely wrong. The members did not use heavy handed tactics... Lou and Warren were the ones who went on a banning frenzy, silencing all those who spoke out about CardSpike.

What bothers me is that an entire community is being blamed for actions the company providing software and services may have done.

Lou and Warren have made it abundantly clear that CAP and PAP are "their houses" so when people refer to CAP or PAP, they are in reality, refering to Lou and Warren.

As far as this whole cardspike thing is concerned, I do see it as the business of the CAP community to see to it that everyone is paid, the entire point of the communityy is to stick together to effect ethical treatment of affiliates.

That is exactly the point! How can the "CAP community" resolve the issue when Lou and/or Warren won't discuss it or allow the "community" to discuss it. All those who have tried are now banned!

I want to draw a clear line here - affiliates are affiliates, regardless of where they hang out. We all are in the same boat and our businesses are subject to the same obstacles. We all need each other. Only together can we effect an even playing field and ethical treatment by affiliate programs.

Agree 100%. The problem is... in this case, CAP is the obstacle.

Are the affiliates responsible for the actions of the provider of their platform? NO. Can the provider of the platform control the community? NO. That was clearly shown at PAP, or even at the old GPWA, before the current parent company took over.

Not for lack of trying on Lou's part.

To make a long story short, I take offense at the constant "CAP" did this and "CAP" did that. CAP did nothing but discuss affiliate issues among each other. CAP is some 8000 individuals. CAP is a community and not a company.

CAP is "Lou's house" as he has pointed out many times. Affiliates are only allowed to discuss what Lou deems appropriate, all other threads are edited or deleted. Those who disagree with him are banned or blocked from posting.

People grossly under estimate the positive influence the affiliate community has had on the way we all as affiliates can do business today. By forming communities, affiliates can and have set standards of conduct for affiliate programs. Every single affiliate has benefitted from the efforts of the community.

Agree.

Personally, I could care less who consults whom and who runs what business, as long as affiliates are treated fairly. The programs may feel differently and that is their issue.

That's the problem. Affiliates were not treated fairly.

This whole "war" in the affiliate industry is disruptive and unproductive and downright dangerous. Affiliates are infighting, and infighting is always destructive. It makes no sense.

Agree. If and/or when Lou and Warren a) come clean about their interest in CS, and b) pay the affiliates what they are owed, this war can come to an end and we can all get back to business.

When there are issues of breach of contract and non payment by affiliate programs, you can count me in to help fix the issue. I believe in fixing things, not destroying them.

That is exactly what started this "war" in the first place... affiliates not being paid by CS! Sometimes, you need to tear something down in order to fix it. It appears that CAP has reached that point.

[Betpartners]

Michael and Jack thanks for your responses and you are both absolutely right in your assertions that i am new to this side of the industry and that my knowledge of some of websites is very limited, this i freely admit.

That was my point, because of my lack of knowledge etc of the casino side of the gambling sector and its mechanisms that i look at this from an outsiders point of view and how it looks to someone to me.

I just dont see how this internal policing can have a positive outcome.

Almost all sportsbook affiliate managers have dealt with me at one time or another in Europe and to some extent Asia and i ahve repeatadly been asked if i will be attending this conference or that conference and i may just attend CAC Amsterdam this year, if i do attend this year i will certainly come and say hi and introduce myself.

I am in no way a newbie to the gambling industry, my experience is extensive but limited to my own sector and i was only trying to say what it looks like from an outsiders point of view albeit an experienced outsider.

You have answered my questions and responded respectfully and that is very appreciated and that in itself leaves a good impression not just to me but to any new people that may read this forum i am sure.

But my disagreement with how this has been handled stands and has been reinforced.

That said, i dont know the history of certain indivduals and it would be wrong for me to comment and anyway that would get away from my initial post on perception.

Personally i think you are probably very close to the truth based on what i have read here and at casinomeister but thats all that is, an opinion, if i was what they call in the UK the Crown Prosection Service i would have no option but to have thrown your case out simply because of who has investigated the case, a competitor and thats a shame considering the amount of work you have put in.

And that is in essence my whole point, that you may and have probably done an excellent job and have probably unearthed the truth and again probably done the industry a service, i certainly am persuaeded of that but that all this is undermined by the fact you are a competitor.

Sorry i just cannot see it any other way.

Anyway you know my opinion now and i am probably boring you with it now and if i attend CAC i am definately looking forward to meeting you all.

Good luck and i hope this does work itself out,

[elgoog]

Jay,

the big sizes of your font in your posts in bold hurt my eyes now....srry

if it was real life it would hurt my ears

srry, its quite early in the morning for me...

[Anthony]

And that is in essence my whole point, that you may and have probably done an excellent job and have probably unearthed the truth and again probably done the industry a service, i certainly am persuaded of that but that all this is undermined by the fact you are a competitor.

This is a self regulated industry. When wrongs occur, such as affiliates not getting paid, it fall on the community to come together and make things right. In our community we are all competitors. Even as competitors we work together, we must for the greater good. And doing so this community has done many positive things as Dom pointed out.

This is the first time within the community affiliates were silenced, by the administrators of the forum they went to for help, for just wanting to get paid.

Of course the community is going to look at it. Who else but a "competitor" or member of this community would bring these issues to light. We can not count on the US government, we can not count on the main stream media. We count on ourselves.

Truth is truth, no matter who uncovers it. To discount it based on the fact competitors are involved, in this industry, is unjustified.

[ck8795]

Dominique I appreciate your post and I wanted to say its not the people who are at CAP that is the issue but the one controlling the boards

This is who we refer to as CAP. I dont visit that board and I will explain why after but I see alot of people that I met here like BB1 who are awesome.

I know you guys work towards building a solid community and helping affiliates out. My reasons for not posting at CAP and PAP is because of who owns it. Every post I or someone else makes builds that community, the bigger the community the more value it has for the person behind it to continue to make money from it.

You brought up a great point about how they shouldnt have been heavy handed..(which someone was right that was Warren mainly that night commenting and banning people who had been there since the very first poker affiliate forum)

These forums are built by members and should the members no longer contribute you dont have a forum. I do not particiapte in either simply because I refuse to allow my time and my thoughts generate additional revenue for either of those two men. I am only one person, so it may not make a difference but if you have enough members who take that road you no longer have a thriving community.I have no problems helping people, sharing discussing. YOu can check my post count at PAP, although alot of that was before Lou and Warren bought the PAW forums from PokerNews. I was still very active as was other people. When they decided that they didnt value our opinions and what we had to say I decided that I should not contribute to their community. Why should they make money from people like me? Why should they be able to make their sales pitches to sponsors for ad space when they dont value us?

I also wanted to point this out to you and I really hope people who support CAP community as a whole (may not include the two owners) but as a group see how the actions these two make play a big role on peoples frustrations


When we see stuff like Roger (Hoursurf) who apparantly has been banned from CAP. Why? He posted yesterday asking for his affiliate earnings from CardSpike. He also asked why someone from the CAP management team attempted to hack Jeremy Enke's administrator account at PokerAffiliateListings

It makes it hard when we see RakeVIP and SSTH Banned from CAP because they questioned Warren/Lou's statements and addressed some topics with GramTrak (not saying this had to do with you robin just pointing out the specific thread )

It makes it hard when CAP bans a number of long time affiliates who only want answers and this is Lou and Warren's only defense to the questions being asked. They dont want to answer and be caught red handed in something so they deny their members the right to speak.

This is not about you, or the people who participate in the forums this is about the others who refuse to own their actions and accept them. I respect what you do and someone once told me a long time ago if I wanted to learn something to read your posts. I do believe though that things need to change for this to die down.

People grossly under estimate the positive influence the affiliate community has had on the way we all as affiliates can do business today. By forming communities, affiliates can and have set standards of conduct for affiliate programs. Every single affiliate has benefitted from the efforts of the community.

You can not change something in your own community when people restrict your right to do so. I have read tons of posts where you guys confronted the programs but how do you change a program when that program also controls the boards?

[joeyl]

a) If the GPWA and APCW decide to pursue other alleged rogue elements pervading this game with the same gusto and determination, then hallelujah. It's about time.

b) Go back into your "professional" shell, and those that see this as a personal thing against Lou, or just a rival business shitting on the competition from the great height of ethics & morality, will have their point made, in time.

c) You'll then find yourselves classed as the rogue element by default, and probably not before time.

I vote for letter a.

[Dominique]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominique
I don't frequent PAP, another message board managed by the same company, so I don't know first hand what went down there. It looks like some people with no understanding that a community consists of it's members used some heavy handed tactics to direct things their way. This is completely out of tune wiith the nature of communities and caused huge problems, and if anyone had asked me I could have told them that beforehand.

This statement is completely wrong. The members did not use heavy handed tactics... Lou and Warren were the ones who went on a banning frenzy, silencing all those who spoke out about CardSpike.

You misread me. Maybe I worded it badly, but I think I said what I meant?

Lou and Warren have made it abundantly clear that CAP and PAP are "their houses" so when people refer to CAP or PAP, they are in reality, refering to Lou and Warren.

My entire post tried to explain that this is not so. Affiliate Media is a company providing the software and other services to Pap and CAP.

What you are saying is like Cake IS cardspike. It is not. Cardspike is using Cake as a software provider.

When you say CAP did this or that, you are saying Steve, Christine, Robin, me and 8000 other people did it. Probably you did it too, if you are a CAP member.

This matters, these kind of generalizations start wars and prejudice. When you start accusing large groups of people of items that are attributed to only a few, this becomes a fixed idea. So we draw a red cross on the forehead of every CAP member, and a green one on the forehead of every GPWA member, and a purple one on the forehead of every Poker Affiliate Lisitings member, and so on.

That is just wrong, and it is destructive to the entire affiliate community.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominique

Personally, I could care less who consults whom and who runs what business, as long as affiliates are treated fairly. The programs may feel differently and that is their issue.

That's the problem. Affiliates were not treated fairly.

Exactly. That is the problem directly affecting affiliates. Is it now fixed? I keep reading everyone is paid now, but came across a post yesterday that said it was not so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominique
I want to draw a clear line here - affiliates are affiliates, regardless of where they hang out. We all are in the same boat and our businesses are subject to the same obstacles. We all need each other. Only together can we effect an even playing field and ethical treatment by affiliate programs.

Agree 100%. The problem is... in this case, CAP is the obstacle.

Disagreed. Affiliate Media has created problems at PAP, the CAP community didn't. We had nothing to do with it. Most of us knew nothing of it until it exploded all over the message boards.

[ck8795]

Exactly. That is the problem directly affecting affiliates. Is it now fixed? I keep reading everyone is paid now, but came across a post yesterday that said it was not so.

No dominique not everyone is paid

Roger was banned yesterday for asking for his money

Poker69 at PAL has received nothing and cardspike will not reply to him

Ridge aka Randy is getting Cake involved after his stats had been altered and now CardSpike has closed his account taking his players.

I am sure there are alot more.

The post you seen saying they had been paid was a statement made ny Cardspike management aka Lou and Warren and Effecetive Media to try and smooth things over.

http://www.pokeraffiliatelistings.co...e-apology.html