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  1. #21
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    Nitro, please let us try to have a constructive conversation here so we can get to the bottom of this.

    What I think happened is that players that were mapped over from Referspot were somehow not included in the audit.

    I have communicated this to eCOGRA. If this is the case, we may be looking at another audit - hopefully with a more accurate outcome.

    It just doesn't wash that players who have played there for years all of a sudden all at once quit playing.

    These Referspot players were a drain on Grand Prive - obviously - especially after they left the US and received few new players from the old Referspot affiliates.

    My guess is that these legacy players were not shown to eCOGRA's auditors.

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  3. #22
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    It was eCogra's responsibility to get all the information and if they felt they didn't have everything, say something. eCogra has presented this in a way that they feel a fair resolution has been reached. It was eCogra's job to get it right, this is what they are suppose to do.
    I hope Dom they take your communications seriously.
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  5. #23
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    Thank you Dom for mentioning the word "legacy" players....I totally forgot that term was used for my Referspot players..who were the bulk of my depositors...[and who i believe were "thinned" out when they supposedly got migrated over to the "new and improved" grand prive platform]...This would most definitely explain why i have NO income as far as this audit goes, if they did not include the "legacy" players....

    Please be sure to let us know what you here on this subject...i will also email them now and refer to my players that were from the referspot era and see what they tell me also.

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  7. #24
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    I just sent the following e-mail to Andrew Beveridge, the executive director of eCOGRA.

    Andrew,

    The reason for this e-mail is related to the thread taking place on the GPWA website at http://www.gpwa.org/forum/gp-ecogra-bs-187069.html. I think Dominique raises an interesting possibility in her post in that thread where she says "It seems to me that players were untagged pursuant closure of the program."

    The question I have for you is whether the methodology of the audit you conducted would have detected and properly handled players associated with an affiliate account that were improperly untagged?

    Obviously this is a critical issue. In the absence of a response affiliates are assuming this happened and so a prompt response from eCOGRA regarding this question will be helpful.

    Michael
    It will be interesting to find out whether eCOGRA believes the process they followed in the audit would have handled this sort of issue or not.

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  9. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by joeyl View Post
    They've taken your stats away, so you can't prove anything right.

    Then it's going to become you versus ecogra's integrity. That's a long and winding road. Don't go down it. It's a built in derail.

    Can you show previous payments from this firm in comparison to the amounts offered now are higher?
    I have records of payment due that go back for several years as I've paid my mom to keep this information stored/saved for me. I know EXACTLY how much they paid me prior to closing each and every month.

    I made more than that settlement amount for years just about EVERY month that I promoted them. I was one of the affiliates that promoted them up to the day they sent the letter informing us of the closure. Looks like October 2008 was the last player that I submitted to them via an exclusive promotion I had with them here.

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  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelCorfman View Post
    It will be interesting to find out whether eCOGRA believes the process they followed in the audit would have handled this sort of issue or not.
    I think it will also be interesting to see exactly how long it takes him to give you a response.

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  13. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkyt View Post
    I think it will also be interesting to see exactly how long it takes him to give you a response.
    I expect it will be quite prompt as is normally the case with Andrew.
    Exit stage left

  14. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkyt View Post
    I think it will also be interesting to see exactly how long it takes him to give you a response.
    I did receive a response to my e-mail message to Andrew within 2-3 hours of sending my e-mail to him.

    Andrew said that he was traveling at the moment, and had a very busy evening and day ahead tomorrow. But he promised he would get back to me as soon as possible.

    Michael
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  16. #29
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    I understand some might have been shorted money, But be thankful You got something!! It could have been worse and a big fat 0

  17. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by AK View Post
    I understand some might have been shorted money, But be thankful You got something!! It could have been worse and a big fat 0
    Sorry, it takes two parties to accept a settlement and I for one am not happy with less than one month's income.

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  19. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dominique View Post
    Sorry, it takes two parties to accept a settlement and I for one am not happy with less than one month's income.
    Yeah, I'd be a tad pissed off too. But I think AK's tongue was stuck firmly in his cheek.


    My question stands: clearly any AGD involvement would have headed off any suggestion of eCOGRA impartiality. In fact, even if there WERE some nagging doubts, I'll bet a pound to a penny you'd have all been less inclined to voice them, with a colleague effectively batting for the other side to a degree.

    So why was it rejected? It was a no-brainer, unless things needed concealing.

    Reasonable hypothesis?

    The release refers to "technical system problems" in the old programme, and that affiliates were encouraged to move to promoting VF, which was apparently "problem-free".

    System problems were being experienced on an ongoing basis due to the Program using software in Beta testing...all affiliates were informed of the intended closure by email on 7 November 2008 and encouraged to move their accounts and players to the Villa Fortuna Affiliate Program, which used improved affiliate program software.
    So why not simply shift the (somewhat bizarrely) "clean" VF programme back to application of the original casinos? Why dump the other casinos? The VF programme could only have made MORE money with all the other GP casinos included. How are you more profitable when making less money?

    Why not just fix it all and get back to business, and everybody's happy?

    I don't buy this.

    This bit is, frankly, very telling IMO:

    During November 2008 management entered into mutually agreed compensation arrangements for related future player activity with the majority of affiliates who at that time had players considered to be reasonably active. We have however confirmed that certain affiliates were overlooked in this process.
    Hmm. "Certain affiliates". But those "certain affiliates" just happened to include all GPWA members; no GPWA member appears to have been a part of this "majority of affiliates".

    Does that not strike you as a bit odd? The majority cut a deal, but no GPWA / CAP / AGD et al member ever heard a squeak about this, nor anyone else who has commented?

    Noone, on the entire world wide web, heard about this?

    C'mon, reality check. That is BS. There was no deal. The claim is impossible.

    So, what does this tell you? Is GP lying, or eCOGRA? If eCOGRA has chosen to take this lie at face value, what does that tell you?


    The relevant claimants’ information was located in the database and information used for the linking and tracking of players associated with the claimants was obtained, in part using information supplied in the claim submissions received from affiliates.


    OK. So why was the very first person to comment in this thread not paid, immediately followed by another saying the same thing? Obviously the database is false / broken / deleted / engineered / tampered with etc ad inf.

    Has eCOGRA taken this bogus database at face value? Clearly the database is false - it HAS to be, unless the posters here are lying, which I doubt - so there are, at best, woefully inadequate accounting skills at work here, and at worst, duplicity being practised.

    Since we hear that...

    The following steps were taken by two eCOGRA employees, both qualified Chartered Accountants
    ...then I gotta say tell ya', either someone here ain't so qualified as they're claimed to be, or someone's being economical with the truth.

    At absolute BEST, this is incompetence.

    We have been able to accurately calculate the commission accruing to each claimant for the period 1 December 2008 to 31 December 2009.

    How? The database is shot to hell. Your "qualified chartered accountants" must know this, right?

    I mean, it's obviously not the case they GP said "this is the database", and you said "OK, fair enough"? I take it your "qualified chartered accountants" have a bit more about them than this?

    Or is it a case that: nobody actually looked at anything, a handful of affiliates were given a bit of cash, it was all dressed up with some official-looking spiel that nonetheless crumbles away at the slightest examination, and it's back to business as usual?

    I know I'm skepticism incarnate, but if I had to put a dollar on it, I think I could hazard a guess at why AGD 's assistance was quietly ignored.

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  21. #32
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    After spending much of the day talking to affected affiliates, the issue seems to be that the Referspot legacy players have not been included in this audit.

    Years ago, Grand Prive was the new program to replace Referspot. No one had any issues with Referspot from what I remember, but immediately following this switch issues abounded, as witnessed by many old threads at CAP. There were lot's of issues mapping over affiliates and players.

    Then this died down and business went as usual for a couple of years.

    That is when Grand Prive announced it's closure and invited affiliates to promote it's one new casino while forgetting about all revenues due them from Grand Prive. At that time, some affiliates were mapped over to the new system, those who had no significant legacy player base and were currently delivering players. The rest was ignored.

    Now, in this audit, what is consistent with all the discrepancies is that legacy players from Referspot were not taken into account.

    That explains the many affiliates who had regular revenues at the time of closure but were not offered any settlement at this time. In conversation they state that their players date back to Referspot.

    It explains the discrepancies in my own settlerment - the majority of my players have been playing there since the days of Referspot.

    To me, as an affiliate, building a good player base is what it is all about. Players should appreciate this too, since it is only possible with places that treat players well and thus retain them for long periods of time.

    However, building a player base is only an efficient business model if the affiliate program does not breach it's contract with affiliates. Hence the outcry everytime this happens.

    Apparently Grand Prive is still trying to avoid paying people for their player bases. Hence the Referspot legacy players were not included in the statistics.

    Meanwhile, the other microgaming programs, who were affected in the same way by their departure from the US, are continuing to pay for player bases as agreed. So how is it possible for them but not for Grand Prive?

    I doubt eCOGRA was aware of the Referspot legacy. If I were eCOGRA, and I had been deceived in such a way, I would be livid.

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  23. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caruso View Post
    So, what does this tell you? Is GP lying, or eCOGRA? If eCOGRA has chosen to take this lie at face value, what does that tell you?
    That a decadence instict is at work here because affiliates are completely unable to effectively organize themselves under normal circumstances. The industry is heavily dependent on the affiliates to deliver the players yet they aren't able to make anything out of it because of the constant struggles between their two dozens or so trade organizations. A case like the grand prive promotes an unity between them and should it happen over and over again they'll build up a clout that will be felt. Instead of this it would be better to play fair but using the dissonance in the affiliate community combined with a treatment "from above" to create a humble, submissive attitude and therefore always be able set the rules.

  24. #34
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    Just something i said to another person earlier today, not taking in to account what has been said here:

    On first inspection of the press release by eCogra, i have a few concerns and would question the overall value of the outcome for a few reasons.

    The report states "We have however confirmed that certain affiliates were overlooked in this process." It is not clear how these "certain" numbers relate to the 51 claimants who initiated a "valid claim". The whole facts together regarding these numbers seem ambiguous to say the least.

    "some 26 legitimate commissions were overlooked. These omissions were most definitely unintentional and are regretted." Unintentional? Are they unable to read the data from their own software, surely if eCogra representatives are able to do so, then they must have the ability to do so.

    Why were seven claims invalid? Claims for specific groups of affiliates were made and although obviously not within the claims criteria as set out and would surely have included affiliates that did not claim, however, may possibly be due earnings. This appears to uphold several claims that the whole investigation was an excercise to clear Grand Prive's name rather than pay all affiliates earnings.

    If, as i suspect, there are still earnings due to affiliates that did not claim, where will these funds be appropriated? Could eCogra not make serious attempts to locate people due earnings? After all they have the facts to do so.

    "Grand Privé has closed the book on this unfortunate and regrettable issue." - This is as we all expected and adds fuel to the fire that the whole episode was a futile excercise to clear their name rather than pay all earnings that are due.

    At least 1 GAU member has had a report back stating that they are owed nothing, yet they were earning from this program every month before the closure. It seems rather unusual to say the least that their players suddenly stopped playing at the very same time the program closed.

    There are very many more than 26 affiliates claiming they are owed money by Grand Prive, are we now to believe that they are all making false claims?
    Paul

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  26. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelCorfman View Post
    Andrew said that he was traveling at the moment, and had a very busy evening and day ahead tomorrow. But he promised he would get back to me as soon as possible.
    Yep and hence the reason I was interested in the response.
    Last edited by arkyt; 15 February 2010 at 10:02 pm.

  27. #36
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    the issue seems to be that the Referspot legacy players have not been included in this audit.
    Don't know if you read this at the GIA or Not, but that was my response to this also.

    It appears that Ecogra asked for the Grand Prive info which obviously would not include the already aquired Players aquired by their previously defunct Referspot Affiliate program!

    AH! The Artful Dodger in play again!

    We had some earnings right up till the end, and actually received a final payment when the Grand Prive Affiliate Program went bust.
    Those players never dropped a dime afterwards. I don't think so!

    So what did Ecogra actually investigate?

    Probably just the short lived Grand Prive links before they crashed and burned, (which were different codes than Referspot, BTW}, so it's no wonder they say "nothing due to so many", because they are not seeing the players brought in via Referspot.

    That's the only logical conclusion one can make of this Ecogra investigation.

    An intentional mishap by Ecogra,........ or an orchestrated investigation by Ecogra, Microgaming, and Grand Prive???????

    Just for the record, I don't think Ecogra set out on a conspiricy, or in cahoots with Microgaming and Grand Prive. ........JMO.
    I DO THINK that they jumped into this to protect the MGS Brand, not necessarily to protect Grand Prive itself. It's hard to know for sure, though.

    I get the feeling that Ecogra requested the Grand Prive info, but failed to recognize that Grand Prive already had a previous Affiliate program that failed, and that the players aquired under the Referspot Codes did not get accounted for.

    That's my best guess at this point, but the results of the Ecogra results don't add up, or follow any common sense pattern for players.
    Sorry guys.

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  29. #37
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    Hi all,
    Very interesting reading and many that I concur with but just to say from my own personal experience.

    - We never had problems with the old 'Referspot' program, yet we had LOADS with Grand Prive Affiliates (and I remember constantly asking them via CAP about going back to the old one - it really can't have been that hard). I was earning good monthly amounts then (ranging about 1k to 4k a month) which significantly dropped after they migrated all that to Grand Prive Affiliates (I don't remember them advising it was a Beta testing site!!!??)
    ==> Surely if it was a Beta testing site not working, they had one that WAS working fine - it would I'm sure have been VERY simple to go back (any IT 'professional' has a back-out plan if the proposed new system doesn't work!).

    - My amounts did drop via the 'new program' as I said, but not quite as low as they have told me I'm getting. $140 !!?? They may as well keep it! That is total total BS (unless their casino brands are now so bad that all those players I sent via the old and new programs have really given up!)
    ==> Are the casinos that bad now that players are not playing / the potential life-time value is poor (yes = easy out for Grand Prive, but also implies I believe that players can't be enjoying the Grand Prive experience!? No = more for Grand Prive to pay to affiliates!).

    These guys have been cheapening the whole affiliate business for so long now that I'm bored of them.

    - They have admitted the system was technically flawed and agree with others that have said -how the heck can they accurately calculate anything.

    I was surprised that they haven't made Terms & Conditions about them making this ridiculous payment to the affiliates regarding removal of anything negative towards the group. I was thinking really this must be their main aim!? (to reduce their negative publicity around the web).
    ==> I will NOT be signing anything like this - from my point of view, these guys have had their chance to really 'do the right thing' far too many times including ..
    --- NOT going back to using Referspot (the old but perfectly working previous stats program) when the GP affiliates site clearly wasn't working correctly
    --- shutting down the program with very little lead-time and no consultation with affiliates
    --- all the lies!
    --- and then finally taking down any level of trustworthiness associated with 'eCOGRA'.

    If they REALLY wanted to do the right thing, they'd bring back the affiliate sites and allow people to view the stats. Surely running 1 months' of stats is the same repeated process for however many months they have not been online for.

    Even if they brought them back online so people can check their own stats, and supply anyone requesting them with full stats. Unfortunately, even this would no longer satisfy me as based on past performances / other MGS brands, they are so unbelievably unrealistic that I'm very sure they are either rigged and/or missing so much from the original migration from Referspot to Grand Prive Affiliates.

    I really don't think anyone will ever get what they believe they are owed from this program, and I think now even if they offered it to remove some of the bad press - it's just been far too much time, too many lies and too little consideration for the affiliates that were good enough to bring them a large amount of players.

    Fingers crossed for those of you holding out for more. I'm telling them to stick their $140 "potential life time earnings" - as per the subject - this whole 'audit' is BS!

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    This whole debacle will go down as one of the biggest attempted con jobs in our history.

    I am just disappointed that eCOGRA has stepped in and basically "cleared" GP's name as far as they are concerned (but I do have some sympthy for them - talk about being stuck between a rock and a hard place).

    Now they can turn around and claim that their Seals of these rogue retain their integrity bacause the affiliate program has "acted in good faith" to "make things right".

    We all know it's a little bit of spit and bubblegum to try and patch up a crumbling 50 story behemoth that is a blot on the lansdscape when you take a couple of steps back.

    This is all so wrong from so many angles but too much bloody energy has been wasted.

    Lets just all agree to never promote thieving scum once they are exposed and move on.

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    What is it you recieve from ECOGRA? Is it just the total owed? Or is it also the number of players, their stats, the breakdown etc? If they provided this then that would help wouldn't it? Then you could see if they are using the Referspot players and for that matter the calculation and workings for how they got to the total owed to you
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    Yesterday I sent the following to my rep. and was told that GP was to be contacting me for banking information soon and I could refuse the offer and tell them why at that time.

    Subject: RE: FINAL REPORT : GRAND PRIVÉ (NOT ACCEPTABLE)

    Hi xxxx,

    Thanks for the quick reply. I'm stunned at that amount and would like to be able to verify it otherwise I'd like to know how to file a complaint because the information provide by Grand Prive has to be incorrect if it produced these results.

    If you can't help me then please let me know what steps to take as I will not accept this settlement.

    Thanks

    Robin
    I've decided that I will go by my records of the Grand Prive stats and ask for the equavalent of what I made in 2008. This information has been recorded for tax purposes for my corporation and is 100% correct and what I've paid taxes on. Nothing else will be acceptable to me and I will not sette for less. PERIOD!

    Edit: I've always paid my staff or give them a % of what I make from a variety of affiliate accounts and anyone that has ever worked for me can verify that they get a 1099 EVERY year from my CPA. At this point all of my trust is gone and I will rely on what I know to be fact. My own data!
    Last edited by GamTrak; 16 February 2010 at 7:19 am. Reason: added to post

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