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  1. #1
    thepokerkeep's Avatar
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    Default Guru Revenue T&C concerns

    I received an email from Christine Lamain the other day asking me to join your program and as I always do before joining new programs, I checked out Guru Revenue's terms and conditions.

    First, I noticed the no NCO policy and the minimum payment amount of just 50 British pounds and thought things were looking good... not so I'm afraid.

    Looking at the next paragraph I was very disappointed to discover the terms include a quota and you must generate an invoice to be paid within 45 days or if you don't raise an invoice, you have to wait 60 days. Not what I would expect from a new affiliate program in this day and age.

    I stopped reading at this point since these terms were enough to convince me to avoid the program.

    I suggest you rethink your strategy if you want to succeed in today's market.



    4.6 GURU REVENUE shall provide the Affiliate with statements detailing the number of Players and/or Users and the Affiliate’s share of the Casino Revenue Share and/or CPA Payments (as appropriate), if any, which have accrued to the Affiliate over the course of the calendar month, which statements are accessible through the GURU REVENUE website (campaign statistics). Such statements shall be updated daily. At the end of a calendar month, GURU REVENUE shall record the total share due to the Affiliate in respect of the percentage of the Casino Revenue Share and/or CPA Payments (as appropriate), if any, during the previous calendar month. In the event that the share of the Casino Revenue Share in any calendar month to which the Affiliate is entitled is a negative amount, it will not be carried forward to the next month. In the event that the total share due to the Affiliate does not exceed fifty British Pounds (£50.00), GURU REVENUE shall be entitled to withhold and carry forward such sum until the end of the first calendar month in which the share of the Casino Revenue Share due to the Affiliate (including such carried forward sum) exceeds fifty British Pounds (£50.00), at which time payment shall be made in accordance with Clause 4.7 hereof.
    For the avoidance of doubt, the Affiliate shall only be entitled to receive payment in terms of this Clause 4 when there is a positive balance and such positive balance is greater than fifty British Pounds (£50.00) in any given month. Furthermore, should an Affiliate fail to refer new Players and/or Users to a promoted GURU REVENUE website over a period of three (3) consecutive months, the Affiliate shall no longer be entitled to his/her/its share of the Casino Revenue Share to which he/she/it would have been entitled pursuant to Clause 4 hereof in respect of the Players and/or Users. In the event that the Affiliate introduces new Players and/or Users after the said three (3) months, the Affiliate shall only be entitled to receive payment in terms of this Clause 4 in respect of the Players and/or Users introduced after the said three (3) month period.
    4.7 Subject to Clause 4.6 above, at the end of a calendar month, the Affiliate may raise an invoice for the relevant percentage of the Casino Revenue Share or CPA Payments (as appropriate) payable by GURU REVENUE to the Affiliate, which invoice shall be paid within forty five (45) days of receipt of the same by GURU REVENUE. GURU REVENUE hereby confirms that raising such an invoice is not a requirement as the relevant percentage of the Casino Revenue Share or CPA Payments (as appropriate) to which the Affiliate is entitled and which is payable by GURU REVENUE shall be automatically raised and paid out (in accordance with Clause 4.6 above) within sixty (60) days. Such Casino Revenue Share shall be paid in British Pounds, inclusive of any Value Added Tax which might be applicable.
    Terry - The Pokerkeep
    President / CEO - Gambling Affiliates Union

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    Email: admin @ thepokerkeep.com



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    cass (24 November 2010), Chips (17 November 2010), GFPC (16 November 2010)

  3. #2
    GFPC is offline Private Member
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    Thank you Terry for researching this! I was not aware of that term.

    Question for Guru? Are you guys willing to remove what many affiliates consider predatory terms?

    regards

  4. #3
    Chris L is offline Sponsor Affiliate Program
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    Hi Terry and GFPC,

    Thanks for your comments.

    You will notice that affiliates are not required to generate an invoice but have the option to do so, we always intend to pay the affiliate well before the timeframe that is mentioned.

    GuruRevenue is committed to becoming a forward thinking and trusted affiliate program and we intend to work closely with our registered affiliates to ensure that they are always paid promptly and fairly.

    Many thanks,

    Christine
    Last edited by Chris L; 17 November 2010 at 6:22 am. Reason: reply to both members

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    Thanks for explaining the payment issue. You may have forgotten to discuss this one.

    Furthermore, should an Affiliate fail to refer new Players and/or Users to a promoted GURU REVENUE website over a period of three (3) consecutive months, the Affiliate shall no longer be entitled to his/her/its share of the Casino Revenue Share to which he/she/it would have been entitled pursuant to Clause 4 hereof in respect of the Players and/or Users.

    Do you intend to keep that term?

    It is predatory and the AGD would consider it predatory, because what it means is if an affiliate does not send a new player to you in three months you will essentially shut their account down.

    The affiliate industry is in big trouble because of these terms already. This was why (part of the reason) Bewinners is in such a problem right now.

    They refuse to negoiate on such predatory tactics

  6. #5
    thepokerkeep's Avatar
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    I fail to see the reason for forcing affiliates to generate an invoice at all. We're busy enough without having to remember to bill you for the players we refer. Your program tracks the revenue due, so why not just generate a payment and avoid the extra bookkeeping? Plus, taking up to 60 days to pay is far too long.

    Regarding the quota, I strongly urge you to remove that clause. It is a deal breaker for many, many affiliates.
    Terry - The Pokerkeep
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  8. #6
    Chris L is offline Sponsor Affiliate Program
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    GURU REVENUE hereby confirms that raising such an invoice is not a requirement as the relevant percentage of the Casino Revenue Share or CPA Payments (as appropriate) to which the Affiliate is entitled and which is payable by GURU REVENUE shall be automatically raised and paid out (in accordance with Clause 4.6 above) within sixty (60) days.

    Hi Terry and GFPC,

    @ Terry: I would like to confirm that raising an invoice is not mandatory, far from it. As you pointed it out, the program tracks and generates the revenue automatically and payments are made automatically. In this date and age, it would be obsolete to force affiliates to issue invoices in order to receive their payments. However, affiliates do have the choice to do so. As a matter of fact, some affiliates prefer to generate invoice for their own purpose.

    Additionally, the 60 days delay does not happen either. Affiliates are paid on a monthly basis. However, if for any reason such as technical reasons, payments had to be delayed, this delay cannot exceed 60 days. As I mentioned above, we are committed to becoming a trusted affiliate program and one way to do this is to ensure prompt payments as we understand that it is the income of the affiliates on the line here.

    GFPC, as for the term stating that affiliates who failed to refer players within 3 consecutive months wouldn't be entitled to their revenue share, we have decided to include this clause to protect ourselves but in practice, I cannot imagine closing an affiliate account because no new referred players were sent. I believe that it is the job of any affiliate manager or affiliate executive to find out why a certain affiliate is no longer active and help him or her generate more income, which is beneficial for both the affiliate and the program, rather than simply closing an account. I can see it happening in cases where an affiliate is displaying bad publicity about a program or a product and hence not promoting it while still generating commission from old players, this would not be fair but this is it.

    We are however open to reword this clause to avoid any misunderstanding as we are committed in working closely with the affiliate community in order to provide the best service and commission structure available.

    Please let me know if you have any further concerns,

    Kind Regards,

    Christine

  9. #7
    thepokerkeep's Avatar
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    Default

    OK, taking the 60 days/invoicing issue off the table for the moment, let's talk about the quota.

    1. Your program will never meet Affiliate Guard Dogs criteria for certification as long as that clause is in your terms. AGD certification should be high on your priority list!

    2. I'm sure you don't intend to use or abuse the clause but as long as it's in your terms, there is potential for it to be enforced. For example, Full Tilt had a 60 day rule in their terms for years and they assured affiliates it would never be enforced... last year they began enforcing it and it cost affiliates dearly. Management and AM's turn over, company policy changes, whatever the reason, history has proven that if a term is in a contract, the time will come when that term is activated.

    3. You mention the potential of enforcing the quota in the event that an affiliate stops promoting your brand and begins generating bad publicity about your product. In the past, we have seen programs try this tactic. They incurred the wrath of the community and soon changed their minds. Since we view the practice as blackmail and censorship the affiliate community as a whole will rally round any affiliate who is subjected to such a threat. If a program does something that an affiliate doesn't agree with, the affiliate should be free to voice his/her concerns without fearing the loss of his or her commission.

    So once again I will urge you to remove the quota. It is going to hurt your credibility and scare off the quality affiliates you need to grow your business.

    Quote Originally Posted by GuruRevenue View Post
    GFPC, as for the term stating that affiliates who failed to refer players within 3 consecutive months wouldn't be entitled to their revenue share, we have decided to include this clause to protect ourselves but in practice, I cannot imagine closing an affiliate account because no new referred players were sent. I believe that it is the job of any affiliate manager or affiliate executive to find out why a certain affiliate is no longer active and help him or her generate more income, which is beneficial for both the affiliate and the program, rather than simply closing an account. I can see it happening in cases where an affiliate is displaying bad publicity about a program or a product and hence not promoting it while still generating commission from old players, this would not be fair but this is it.

    We are however open to reword this clause to avoid any misunderstanding as we are committed in working closely with the affiliate community in order to provide the best service and commission structure available.

    Please let me know if you have any further concerns,

    Kind Regards,

    Christine
    Terry - The Pokerkeep
    President / CEO - Gambling Affiliates Union

    Casino Affiliate Programs
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    Gambling Affiliate Program Blacklist

    Email: admin @ thepokerkeep.com



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  11. #8
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    Default

    Good work Pokerkeep.


    The payment delay of 60 days is a bit slow - but at least it IS automatic - and affiliates do have a choice to raise it earlier - so it's really not that much of an issue. In practice I've noticed a lot of progames taking 45-50 days to pay.

    ---------------

    Regarding the three months clause with no players causing suspension of receipts - that IS more problematic - and obviously predatory.

    Christine you're obviously a very smart lady who is focused on good service - so I had expected a bit more than "we don't expect to enforce it" as an attempt at justifying the term.

    I'm sure that you're well aware that logic was never really going to work - even if it is the company line. If you don't expect to enforce the 3 month term - then take it out and everyone will be happy. I cannot understand the resistance to taking out a term that you don't intend to use ... ummmm ... unless you did actually intend to use it?



    If the 3-month term remains in the terms then it CAN be enforced at a later date - perhaps after a change of management or circumstances - and that represents a risk that affiliates would have to consider.

    ----------------------

    Christine it seems a simple choice ...

    1) Remove an unwanted term "that will never be used" and Guru Revenue can be considered affiliate friendly.

    2) Retain a term "that will never be used" and Guru Revenue will be considered potentially predatory.

    Which is the better path?

    Oh there is choice #3 I guess ...

    3) Supply a witnessed affidavit that you and existing management will remain working at Guru Revenue for 100 years and that you will personally ensure that it will never be used - and you will sell all your personal posessions to re-imburse affiliates if it is.

    Yeah - I don't think much of choice #3 either - so I think that Guru Revenue need to choose from the first two.

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  13. #9
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    Hi Christine,

    It's been over a week since your last reply. Is there any chance your program will remove the quota from your T&C's?
    Terry - The Pokerkeep
    President / CEO - Gambling Affiliates Union

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    Chris L is offline Sponsor Affiliate Program
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    Hi Terry,

    Apologies for my late response but we have discussed the issue and decided to remove the mention of the quota from the Ts&Cs because they wouldn't apply anyway so the changes are being done and will be completed shortly.

    We are determined to make our affiliate program trusted, affiliate-friendly and successful and we want to work with all the members of GPWA so I hope these changes will demonstrate our goal.

    I will update everyone once the changes have been done so we can all move on.

    kind Regards,

    Christine

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    GFPC (24 November 2010), grem (28 August 2012), thepokerkeep (24 November 2010)

  16. #11
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    wow good job GuruRevenue

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    Awesome news Christine! Kudos to you for making this decision.
    Many thanks.
    Terry - The Pokerkeep
    President / CEO - Gambling Affiliates Union

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    Chris L is offline Sponsor Affiliate Program
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    Default Terms and Conditions updated

    Hi Everyone,

    We would like to inform you that at last, we have updated our GuruRevenue Terms and Conditions and removed the 3 months
    player quota. We hope that these changes will show our intention of putting our affiliates at ease in promoting
    GuruPlay.com verticals and give everyone peace of mind.

    If you have any questions or concerns, please do not hesitate to contact us!

    Kind Regards,

    Christine

  19. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by GuruRevenue View Post
    Hi Everyone,

    We would like to inform you that at last, we have updated our GuruRevenue Terms and Conditions and removed the 3 months
    player quota. We hope that these changes will show our intention of putting our affiliates at ease in promoting
    GuruPlay.com verticals and give everyone peace of mind.

    If you have any questions or concerns, please do not hesitate to contact us!

    Kind Regards,

    Christine
    Very much appreciated Christine, and thanks for pm'ing me earlier with the news.

    I hope other programs take note of how painless this was to resolve. No muss, no fuss... awesome job Guru Revenue!
    Terry - The Pokerkeep
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    Chris L is offline Sponsor Affiliate Program
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    Thank you Terry, we are glad this has been resolved

    Happy holiday season!

    Christine

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    Hi, I am new to this business. Am I looking wrong or the 3 months clause is back?

    3.6 GURU REVENUE shall provide you with statements accessible through the website (campaign statistics) detailing the number of customers and your share of net Revenues and/or CPA Payments (as appropriate), if any, which have accrued to you over the course of the calendar month. Such statements shall be updated daily. At the end of a calendar month, GURU REVENUE shall record your total share of net Revenues and/or CPA Payments (as appropriate), if any, during the previous calendar month. In the event that a Revenue Share in any calendar month is a negative amount, it will not be carried forward to the next month. If a Revenue Share does not exceed £50, GURU REVENUE shall be entitled to withhold and carry forward such sum until the end of the first calendar month in which the Revenue Share (including such carried forward sum) exceeds £50, at which time payment shall be made in accordance with clause 3.7.
    For the avoidance of doubt, you will only receive a payout when there is a positive balance and it is greater than £50 in any given month. Also, if an Affiliate fails to refer new users / players to a promoted GURU REVENUE website over a period of three consecutive months, the Affiliate will cease to generate Revenue Share by players/users brought until that time.

  22. #17
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    Ho Ho, something is played round.

    This reminds us that reading or even researching the T&C of a program is so important before joining it.

    I still remember one thing. I could not remember if it was written in their T&C, Inter Casino program had a policy to deduct few dollars a month from your balance if you did not send a new player to them. This forced us to terminate the relationship with them even without considering if they would pay us the balance.

  23. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barrin View Post
    Hi, I am new to this business. Am I looking wrong or the 3 months clause is back?

    3.6 GURU REVENUE shall provide you with statements accessible through the website (campaign statistics) detailing the number of customers and your share of net Revenues and/or CPA Payments (as appropriate), if any, which have accrued to you over the course of the calendar month. Such statements shall be updated daily. At the end of a calendar month, GURU REVENUE shall record your total share of net Revenues and/or CPA Payments (as appropriate), if any, during the previous calendar month. In the event that a Revenue Share in any calendar month is a negative amount, it will not be carried forward to the next month. If a Revenue Share does not exceed £50, GURU REVENUE shall be entitled to withhold and carry forward such sum until the end of the first calendar month in which the Revenue Share (including such carried forward sum) exceeds £50, at which time payment shall be made in accordance with clause 3.7.
    For the avoidance of doubt, you will only receive a payout when there is a positive balance and it is greater than £50 in any given month. Also, if an Affiliate fails to refer new users / players to a promoted GURU REVENUE website over a period of three consecutive months, the Affiliate will cease to generate Revenue Share by players/users brought until that time.
    I just looked at Guru and clause 3.6 is not published on their t&c's. It stops at 3.5 and I saw no indication of quotas.
    --
    "People who are unable to motivate themselves must be content with mediocrity." ~Andrew Carnegie~

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chips View Post
    I just looked at Guru and clause 3.6 is not published on their t&c's. It stops at 3.5 and I saw no indication of quotas.
    If I am not wrong (Sorry, cannot post links yet):

    affiliates DOT gururevenue DOT com/terms_and_conditions DOT asp - Clause 3.6 here

    or

    gururevenue DOT com/terms-and-conditions DOT htm - Clause 10.5 here.

  25. #20
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    I see it now. I had looked at the pre-signup terms here: http://gururevenue.com/terms-and-conditions.htm And the clause has been removed. Good catch seeing it in the Income Access software. I do see it in 10.5 (Termination clauses)

    10.5 If the Affiliate fails to deliver one (1) new Player and/or User registration within a period of three (3) months (billed months) and having not referred any active players till that time, GURU REVENUE reserves the right to terminate this Agreement immediately by delivery of written notice to the Affiliate.
    --
    "People who are unable to motivate themselves must be content with mediocrity." ~Andrew Carnegie~

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