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  1. #1
    Malikbhai is offline Public Member
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    Default How do you deal with the guilt of people losing five to six figure sums on gambling?

    I know Sherlock has posted his views on it numerous times here. He's solid as a rock is.

    But, others haven't made their views known.

    There's one person who's lost amounts that one can use to buy houses, but he or she doesn't seem to quit.

    Usually, I don't give an aass, but sometimes even I feel a few people need to give it a rest.

    I don't know may be it's a phase, due to some chick flick I saw, but really. Hmm.

    Where's my brutal sense of "squash em and mash em" feeling gone.

    MB.

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  3. #2
    MJM
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    I struggle with this as well, we all want to feel good about the way we make our money - I have kids so it's especially important to me. Here is my take on it.

    These people are going to gamble the money anyways. The thing we need to ensure is that they play with a trustworthy operator. Not just the operator that is trustworthy for affiliates, but more importantly, operators that are safe and reputable for players. That way, you are at least directing them to the most ethical options, and ideally operators who don't take advantage of problem gamblers and at least have some safe guards in place to protect those with problems.

    Back when I was a poker affiliate exclusively - we wanted our players to win. We made money the more they play, and winners played more. This is the opposite with sports/casino - so the only other thing you can do is switch to CPA - and then you can legitimately root for your punters to win, as you are paid a one off and done with that aspect. I've never been a CPA affiliate until entering the regulated US market where it was forced on me, and the result has been a bit more feeling ok about what I do vs being tied to the losses of punters.

    My .02, others will have different takes I suppose.
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  5. #3
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    Everybody is responsible for their own actions, unless you are younger than 18 (some countries 21) or mentally disabled. So no. Actually, we are the good guys. People come to our websites and they already want to play. We are just giving people what they want and need (info, experience, tips, comparing, exclusive deals, etc) to get a good chance at beating the house/having a good time. In my opinion all casino (push) marketing should be banned except for SEO affiliate websites.

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  7. #4
    FictionNet is offline Private Member
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    Zero guilt whatsoever. Doesn't mean I don't feel sorry for them. I'd probably rather they'd not lost the money, if they can't afford it, regardless of my income boost. But I have zero guilt about helping a gambler who IS going to gamble find his or her way to a responsible venue where if they win, they'll get paid. If I wasn't their middle-man, they'd possibly have lost even if they'd won by playing at a clipjoint.

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  9. #5
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    Guilt would be a strange word ... and a strange feeling ... unless your affiliate site is presenting gambling as a way to make untold riches.

    We promote sports betting mainly, and run as a "beer bets' site. I'd rather have 50,000 readers gambling $10-$20 a day rather than a handful of people betting sums that they can't afford to lose and that's clearly stated time and again on site.

    That being said - I do see people depositing thousands in the stats and losing it in a session. It's part of the gambling scene isn't it.

    I'm comfortable with what we do.

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    I think feeling guilty is a luxury you only have if you earn enough.
    Imagine your income drops 90% and you will be happy about each highroller losing his money under your affiliate account instead of being tracked to someone else.

    I'd feel guilty if I'd promote playing online as a way to financial freedom or other nonsense.
    "The harder I work, the luckier I get."

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  13. #7
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    It is a very good theme though. Guilt is a very strange " animal". When I see people lose money in land-based casinos, I do not see giult in the faces of croupiers, cashiers or even the body-guards.

    We do our job , the best way we can- yes, there would be "peanuts" players and high-rollers, who are losing real-estates in no time. This is life.

    If those customers are not mine or your, they would go elsewhere.

    I have to agree with TheGooner, that it is better to have thousands of 20-30 $ rollovers/ players, but without the big ones, we would not have the chanhce to develop and make thing we do in bigger and better dimensions.
    The wors scenario is to be on negative on all the program you count for 3-6 months. ( Believe I faced and has such issues).

    This is part of the game, either we have to feel guilty or the players, that they can not control themselves.

    What about the bookies? Do they feel any guilt????
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    I think this way,the guy dropping $10000 or more every month may be worth 400 Million ,the person losing $200 may only make $1000 a month.We have to trust the tools in place look for problem gamblers.I am smallish player at 888,deposit $100 a week on average but last month I won $2900 so blew the budget and did 3x$100 deposits in a week.I had a email because of unusually higher deposits asking if I was comfortable with my play lol.They are regulated so much stricter.

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    I know a guy who lost his house in offline gambling. Although I do feel very sorry for him, at the end, we are all responsible for our own deeds! I have tried to help him, but at that time he was acting like I'm his enemy, and not his friend. So as someone said here, I feel comfortable with what we do!

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    I'm just a gambling affiliate and am not responsible for the actions of a problem gambler anymore than a liquor salesperson is responsible for the actions of a drunkard. I have a responsible gambling section on my site with advice and contact information for those who wish to seek help, but whether they choose to seek help or not is their choice.
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  21. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malikbhai View Post
    I know Sherlock has posted his views on it numerous times here. He's solid as a rock is.
    I should probably shut up, but ok, I am still human too, with his sins and weaknesses, so idk if I am solid. People who knew me were sometimes rather disappointed, that I am liquid. In reality not so strict as on forums. And I admit that. Internet forums are one thing; complex reality is something else. Maybe it should not be. But as the donkey said, onion and our mind has many layers. So in reality I do not tell people who are gamblers straight away they are f****** i*****. I also do not feel guilt all the time, because there is not just consciousness.

    There is the larger part of human mind and that is subconsciousness. And one can very well be subconsciously guilty and that is the real problem that goes further than to us (one example: my exes/relationships/employees broke, because I did not pay attention to that kind of guilt in people). Conscious guilt is not so big problem, because it does one feel uncomfortable and it leads to some solution. Subconscious guilt is something that can manifest as disease or some other kind of self-destruction.

    So I think it is good to remind ourselves about the issue over and over again. Because the concern here are not the gamblers, who have their own battle. The concern is us.

    Human society and the coherence of it simply undeniably depends on mutual feeling. I see someone suffering and I either feel his pain as my own or that pain should progress to my subconscious pain. That was a condition for our survival. People who did not have this (autists and such) were not fit for survival. Since we and our genes are the ones who survived, we indeed must have this inside.

    Now the problem is not just affiliate marketing, but capitalism as whole. Drifter said "What about the bookies? Do they feel any guilt????" and that is the point. Bookies are just some shareholders. The whole capitalistic system of stockholders -> high management -> middle management -> low management -> clerks was built=survived=is the best, because it can dilute the guilt. Stockholders are so far from everything; and then everyone is just "working for someone else". The dirtiest job is made by those at the bottom, but exactly as Strider points out, those people at the bottom struggle on their personal level, so they can justify to themselves what they do, because they do not take pleasure out of other people, because simply, they do not have much of their own pleasure.

    Probably you know the Adolf Eichmann defense. He said "I had no authority and I was just following the orders". The nazi camps are not just horrible because millions of people were killed there. Nazi (and non-nazi) camps are horrible, because they are a mirror to modern society with labor (and guilt) division. This is btw why radical left is making analogy between fascism and capitalism, but even the Soviet camps were equally ugly and used the same logic. And at the bottom, doing the worst job, were not the guards, but some privileged prisoners. Can they be guilty? Indeed, they can.

    Our "problem" is that our job is specific. Until now the show could be run like one man, so we can not hide the guilt between more people. And also we can see all the stats (but affiliate softwares do everything for us not to see it : ).

    One can wish the beer betting, but it is just a comfortable lie that is great. Lie that is spread by betting companies and is effective. The society and employees can think there is something like responsible gambling. In fact, it is not. Gambling is actually beating even the 80-20 Pareto rule. We live from desperate rich people and desperate thieves. Numbers do not lie. Look at the programs where you can track players.

    CPA is another way how you can throw away most of your money and buy your innocence. Even CPA works with average value and that average value means, that most of your players will not bring the CPA value but one of them will bring much more. You can buy your innocence by cheering then, fine. But it will not change anything in reality.

    It is obvious that nearly everyone wants to live in peace, not to feel like a monster. Even Adolf Eichmann. But in fact we are all monsters. The nazi leaders even admitted it when they started the "project". They talked about guilt and how they have to accept it and leave other people innocent and bring the greater good.

    It is as always up to anyone. How much we decide to play the game of life and how much we want to deny the things. Personally I am trying to be grateful. That I am not the gambler in first place. Then also that this madness gives me a strength and I can try some new things about life itself, because it is like running from the burning house. And in the end, god loves those who try, so I am somehow automatically getting some protection and good life after all. I really do not think that denying the reality is the solution. But indeed, most people will always choose the denial and it must be like that.
    We are all bloodsucking ticks, hungry, devious
    each one latched on to the ass of the previous
    when the last and the first latch on it can be shown
    ass-blood sucked by the first from the last is his own

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  23. #12
    FictionNet is offline Private Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sherlock View Post
    So I think it is good to remind ourselves about the issue over and over again.
    Excellent point, brilliantly made.

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  25. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sherlock View Post
    CPA is another way how you can throw away most of your money and buy your innocence. Even CPA works with average value and that average value means, that most of your players will not bring the CPA value but one of them will bring much more. You can buy your innocence by cheering then, fine. But it will not change anything in reality.
    In one way, I do get a bit of this at GVC/Party where in the early days I took a straight, VERY bad CPA deal ($65 per player + 0% rev) and this was a LONG time ago. I still every day see those players. I don't really want to see their activity 'cos I don't make any money out of them or have any financial interest but GVC smack the deposits in my face the second I log in, including all the CPA-only players (my majority 'cos I don't promote them now). So I do cheer on those players, although if the stats are anything to go by, they are depositing thousands and thousands every month and losing most of it (me 0%, my fault). Interesting how long-lasting loyalty players can develop via a CPA deal where the affy gets nowt. Coincidence, I'm sure.

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  27. #14
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    Def not coincidence at least the GVC.
    Take it from the brighter side, maybe because you are on CPA, you have still account opened. That said, I think I got off them much more than 65/player. Sadly I have no data to count it. But I can not promote them anymore.

    I remember when Pinny was excellent with commission paid on turnover. Same was betfair. Same is now Bitmex. One really cheers for wins, because they just make the affiliate revenue higher. Still our cheering does not change the thing that people on average lose and must lose and that is the point of this game.

    I was just walking my cat on street (he insists on that) and he ate some gecko. How should I take this? I can take it that (my) cat is happy because he likes geckos. Or I should be sad, because gecko died. Why I am talking about this? Because our revenue is, like everything in this world, an analogy to that. The stronger gets the meal / energy / money.

    Still people tend to analyse this situation from 2 standpoints:

    - the rightwingers just try to accept it. So they say that is the world, maybe not ideal, but the best from the bad solutions etc. Let's not think about it, because it is useless and reality is what it is.

    - the leftists say: this is not ok, there should be harmony, no one has to have advantage, or the advantage has to be limited etc. Let's think about it.

    How I see it, it is a combination in a way. I am trying to accept things as they are; so that gambling idiots will be gambling idiots. But I think it is really important to think about it. The money, which is a symbolical proxy for sources or life-energy simply flows to me. The people who gamble diminish their survival fitness. I am making my chances (and chances of my offsprings) higher. So there is an imperative to do something with my life.

    It is the same with my cats, who are the only carnivores in my household. Someone must die for them to live. Fine. But then the life must be worth of it. So they have a vet who comes to the house so they have no stress and there is one employee who cares just for the cats and so on. There goes the money from whales... It could feed 20 people in Africa, but ... they will die. My cats will live a bit longer. I really think about those people.

    I remember a story or maybe it was a history, of not so old times. It was about handling an execution of murderers. The priest coming to the murderer was actually begging for sorry. It does not make sense from "normal" standpoint, right. But in a way yes. The priest, as proxy for society, was thanking to the murderer that the murderer for being the murderer and therefore the murderer is not someone else. Because, someone has to be the murderer. (If you think this is way too crazy, then it is something that psychoanalysis accepts. It is also one of points of Last temptation of Christ from Kazantzakis [actually boycotted by orthodox Christians, so maybe good stuff for common atheists], where not Jesus, but Judas is the hero, because he, as the most dedicated pupil of Jesus, decided to betray, because someone simply must be the evil coward.)

    I feel like the priest. I thank my players, that they are the losers and I am not the gambler. But in a way, I really feel connected to them in a twisted spiritual way. The more I am connected, the further from their fate I hope I can go.

    That said, I am ready to help them and I tried it so many times. They even worked for me, they saw the game from inside, but they still kept gambling. Who knows, maybe even under my affiliate account (that is really like mythological affiliate uroboros). I offered them probably everything I could. I showed them perspective. I showed them what makes sense. I took a lot of psychedelics, so they understood it and their weaknesses. It really went to the extremes that they slept with my gf's, but in the end all they got was reflection of their greed that got just bigger.

    So in the end I really did not help anyone (unless the cruel reflection of themselves helped them), because the greed has to be fought from within and such person does not need help at all.

    So again I am trying to be grateful to all greedy, lazy idiots, who are so stupid, bored and desperate, that they go gambling and feed the destruction in themselves; as I am also grateful to the slaves in Asia and Africa, who work for this system, so I have abundant food, clothes etc.

    I remember my pragmatic grandma (she is now in her 90s with Alzheimer) when I was young and even when we were actually very poor, I was asking about even poorer people, gypsies in Romania, who were begging naked by trains, what does that all mean. She told me "I rather do not even think about those things". I think it is necessary to have balls to think about things that are not nice, if one wants to stop wanking in the mental backyard. Not because it is ballsy, but because it is the most valuable thing. And this is the message deep inside of all philosophies and religions, until they are abused. One has to feel the people, but not (just) for the people, but to help himself.

    If you still think that those long texts from junkie are trying to persuade you to think differently, you are wrong. I really accept that nothing changes, because nothing can change and the trajectory of the world is now well set up. The oldschool rightwing pragmatics will repeat their mantra, how everyone has free will and such bullshit. The amount of leftwing horrified people will just grow and they will make everything just worse, because the help will make the snowflakes just more fragile and they will need again more help. For me it is really great if you are from either side, because you occupy the position and I do not have to be there.
    We are all bloodsucking ticks, hungry, devious
    each one latched on to the ass of the previous
    when the last and the first latch on it can be shown
    ass-blood sucked by the first from the last is his own

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  29. #15
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    For some people six figures is just pocket money, for others losing a few hundred might be a disaster. I think I bother just as much as the pilot of an airplane flying people to places where they might get robbed, fall in love with gold diggers, get a disease, etc.

    I try to give balanced information and definitely not stating that gambling is way to generate structural income. I also target people entering gambling-related search terms. I am not bothering people watching a movie, waiting for the bus or listening to the radio.

    Gambling might be fun, most of the times you'll lose and sometimes you'll hit a good one.

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    I think the bottom line is that I'm aware that I'm a piece of sh*t for doing this, but it's OK to be one, if the money is good enough in the long run.

    Being sorry and happy at the same time nullifies it.

    Conscious guilt is better than subconscious righteousness.

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    Edit.
    Last edited by RacingJim; 3 December 2019 at 4:41 pm. Reason: edit

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    I consider it analogous to a woman finding out that her husband had been seeing prostitutes and then blaming the prostitutes for breaking up their marriage. The problem aint the prostitutes, the problem is your husband and your marriage.

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  36. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malikbhai View Post
    I think the bottom line is that I'm aware that I'm a piece of sh*t for doing this, but it's OK to be one, if the money is good enough in the long run.

    Being sorry and happy at the same time nullifies it.

    Conscious guilt is better than subconscious righteousness.
    The problem here is that modern and postmodern society came with the totalitarian imperative that we must be good.

    In the good old times, people believed to the stupid stories like that they were expelled from paradise and that they are both bad and good. We have devil and god inside and they are somehow both necessary for human being to be human. It does not mean that the bad is good or bullshit like that. It simply reflects the complexity of the world and it is a good base for deeper understanding or true compassion.

    People also had those totally stupid habits and ceremonies like confessions, where they were free to express the evil side of themselves and actually after that, they were able to do much more the good things without schizophrenic and neurotic feelings that block any action and lead to collapse of energy.

    The religion was also a purely functional thing (that has nothing to do about philosophical disputes what exactly is god etc.), it had to make people more effective as well, because it had to remove the tension of superego. It was not the stupid orthodox thing that developed always periodically, where people are just oppressed by ten commandments and they can not laugh at themselves.
    Last edited by Sherlock; 3 December 2019 at 5:37 pm.
    We are all bloodsucking ticks, hungry, devious
    each one latched on to the ass of the previous
    when the last and the first latch on it can be shown
    ass-blood sucked by the first from the last is his own

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    I always assume that the people depositing big money are rich and can afford to lose it.

    I have hung out with rich people from Country Clubs and other social clubs and they go out to casinos and gamble vast sums. Much of it is done I think just to show to the other members how much they can gamble and improve their status in the hierarchy of their organizations.

    I think it is a rare thing for someone to be depositing 10k+ per month and be getting that money out of a reverse mortgage or something that is hurting him financially. I think more often than not it is simply someone who has a big income and a penchant for "action" because not much gets their adrenaline flowing like gambling does.

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