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  1. #1
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    Default Kahnawake right to license questioned

    This is troubling news out of Canada. GoldenPalace has pleaded guilty to two counts of illegal gambling and must pay a $2 million fine according to a CBC report.

    The legal logic behind this -- as far as the Quebec authorities are concerned -- is that in Quebec, only the provincial government has the right to issue gambling licenses. And that makes the licenses issued by the Kahnawake null and void.

    The Kahnawake, who are located near Montreal, Quebec, say the Canadian constitution allows them to operate as an independent nation and Quebec law does not apply to them. As a result, their licensing and server operations for online gaming are perfectly legal.

    With the Kahnawake licensing almost 350 sites according to online.casinocity.com, this situation has the potential to become messy. Buzzy will continue to keep an eye on the situation.

    CBC report: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/montreal/st...alace1129.html

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    I am no lawyer and no specialist in Canadian legal amenities, but wouldn't it be the case that after so many years with this licensing going on only new licenses would become void if Quebec`s government arguments were sustained? I mean, nobody should delete with one hand what he has written with the other, right? If such a thing takes place, then soon enough we may all be convicted of witchcraft and heresy, taking your kids to school may become illegal, or whatever...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pablo View Post
    I am no lawyer and no specialist in Canadian legal amenities, but wouldn't it be the case that after so many years with this licensing going on only new licenses would become void if Quebec`s government arguments were sustained? I mean, nobody should delete with one hand what he has written with the other, right? If such a thing takes place, then soon enough we may all be convicted of witchcraft and heresy, taking your kids to school may become illegal, or whatever...
    The licensing thing is fairly new for the Kahnawake's.
    There have been other major disputes between the Mohawk nations and different levels of the Canadian government in the recent past.

    When Absolute first admitted there was cheating going on, the Quebec Provincial Police said they were looking into it... that never went anywhere since they have no real jurisdiction on native lands.
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    Schankwart is online now Public Member
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    Who would miss the Kahnawake Gaming Commission anyways?
    In most cases the operators can easily switch jurisdictions and Kahnawake licenses a large amount of foul Casinos without doing anything against it. I am sure it would be rather positive news for all players if this establishment eventually had to shut down business!

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    It's really not the license issue that should concern everyone here, it's the server issue. Most of the major sites (poker stars, full tilt, absolute) use the MIT servers located on Mohawk land. If the Canadian government shuts down the Kahnawake's businesses there will be some major panic in the industry.
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    Quote Originally Posted by thepokerkeep View Post
    It's really not the license issue
    Obviously you've never dealt or had to take licensing issues (or player issues) up with the powers that be at Kahnawake!

    Let me give you a quick education.

    Kahnawake are are useless as tits on a bull when it comes to governing their gaming licenses. They don't give a toss about anything, that includes spam & or any other so called license protocols.

    IMHO some gaming establishements have knowingly used Kahnawake slackness to perpetrate actions against players (rogue like behaviour) knowing full well Kahnawake will take no action.

    Unfortunately Kahnawake have a shocking conflict of interest here. This is what allows the dodgy gaming venues to fly under the radar every time. No one gives a toss & if they do what can be done about it, nothing...Cause it will affect their (Kahnawake) bottom line.


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    Last edited by AussieDave; 3 December 2007 at 6:09 am.
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    A lot of trustable casinos are under a Kahnawake license....

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    Quote Originally Posted by elgoog View Post
    A lot of trustable casinos are under a Kahnawake license....
    True. -But there are dozens of EXTREMELY foul ones as well!
    I would love to see them going out of business, no matter what price it would cost. They are responsible for a huge amount of fraud and do not earn to be in the position they are in.

    Shame on Khanawake!

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    Thanks Schankwart

    Telling it from a players perspective, after all if it wasn't for the players there wouldn't be a gaming industry. A fact I feel a lot of people forget & or over-look


    IMHO Kahnawake had the prime opportunity to set standards, to force accountability to show Governments that this industry could be managed.

    However...

    All I see is another example of where the colour of money has reined victorious over fairness, justice and integrity.



    Cheers



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    Quote Originally Posted by AussieDave View Post
    Obviously you've never dealt or had to take licensing issues (or player issues) up with the powers that be at Kahnawake!

    Let me give you a quick education.

    Kahnawake are are useless as tits on a bull when it comes to governing their gaming licenses. They don't give a toss about anything, that includes spam & or any other so called license protocols.

    IMHO some gaming establishements have knowingly used Kahnawake slackness to perpetrate actions against players (rogue like behaviour) knowing full well Kahnawake will take no action.

    Unfortunately Kahnawake have a shocking conflict of interest here. This is what allows the dodgy gaming venues to fly under the radar every time. No one gives a toss & if they do what can be done about it, nothing...Cause it will affect their (Kahnawake) bottom line.


    Cheers

    Dave
    Dave,

    You're mixing up licensing with regulation! The Kahnawake license is just a permit that allows a given site to use the Mohawk Internet Technologies (MIT) servers (basically a cash grab by the Mohawks). Unfortunately there is no such thing as an effective regulatory body governing the online gambling industry.

    The Mohawks believe they are a nation unto themselves and don't have to abide by Canadian laws. So far, they have been proven right, the Canadian government does not want a conflict with the Mohawks, they always end badly. My point, as stated above, is that while the Kahnawake license is just a useless piece of paper, if the Canadian government decides to shut down the MIT servers, the whole industry will feel the impact. There are many respected sites using those servers who do a good job of regulating themselves... full tilt, poker stars, etc. These sites will be scrambling to find other reliable servers to host their domains if the MIT servers are shut down.

    There are many people who think the U.S. government should get into the regulation business. These folks believe that this will be the miracle cure for the industry. The sad truth is, the American government will still have no control over the off shore operators.

    The only effective way to regulate this industry is through self regulation. Whether that means affiliates holding the sites they represent accountable (the GPWA could lead the way here) or the sites themselves creating a regulatory body is to be decided by smarter people than me. But, the truth is painfully obvious that no single country will be able to regulate the global internet gambling industry.

    Until this industry decides to take matters into their own hands in regards to this issue, there will continue to be rogue sites out there ready to take advantage of unsuspecting customers and affiliates. Granting or revoking a license certainly won't impact this problem.
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    Quote Originally Posted by thepokerkeep View Post
    You're mixing up licensing with regulation!
    I doubt it. The following statements are copied from the KGC's very own website about the standards of their operators:

    "That only suitable persons and entities are permitted to operate within Kahnawake;
    That the games offered are fair to the player; and
    That winners are paid."

    You can read more about their "regulation" here: xxxhttp://www.kahnawake.com/gamingcommission/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Schankwart View Post
    I doubt it. The following statements are copied from the KGC's very own website about the standards of their operators:

    "That only suitable persons and entities are permitted to operate within Kahnawake;
    That the games offered are fair to the player; and
    That winners are paid."

    You can read more about their "regulation" here: xxxhttp://www.kahnawake.com/gamingcommission/
    I've read their regulations.... that's my point! They give out a license (a useless piece of paper) but don't regulate the industry. It doesn't matter what they have on their website.

    Absolute is still operating from the servers located there even though the Kahnawake has removed their name from the list of licensed sites. All the Mohawks are interested in is the money....
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    It would actually be better if online casinos could disassociate themselves from this reserve. If you are not a resident of Canada then it might be difficult to understand. But some native reserves in Canada including this one have an economy that is based entirely on smuggling drugs. Kahwanakee in the past has smuggled cigarettes, marijuana, and cocaine. The RCMP seized 1300 kilograms of cocaine from these guys not that long ago.

    Trust me losing Kahwanakee is a good thing. I have nothing against Canadian natives as I think they are important and help with conserving land from development and deforestation, but this reserve is one of the worst.
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    Quote Originally Posted by thepokerkeep View Post
    You're mixing up licensing with regulation!

    Au contraire TPK...


    A Kahnawake gaming license isn't a permit, if it was, people would just pay money and receive permission to do xyz.

    The Fact that anyone seeking a Kahnawake gaming license has their company/personal details scrutinized by an in-dependant fraud agency (National Fraud Center), demonstrates that a Kahnawake gaming license is anything but a permit.

    Further to this, Kahnawake states and uses the terms:

    Regulation
    Regulations
    Regulatory

    Which in their true meaning means to Govern.

    Further evidence of this can be perused in their regulation PDF below:

    xxxhttp://www.kahnawake.com/gamingcommission/Kahnawake%20Regulations%20Concerning%20Interactive %20Gaming.pdf

    For completeness I'll however add, that the xxxhttp://www.kahnawake.com/gamingcommission/ web site seems to have not been updated for a very long time. Its copyright is 2002. Obviously not an important factor for Kahnawake.



    Cheers

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    Last edited by AussieDave; 3 December 2007 at 10:32 am.
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    You guys are missing the point entirely here....

    The Kahnawake can post anything they want on their website. This doesn't mean they will actually follow through.
    I can post that I love liver and onions.... does it mean i really do?

    The only reason that over half of the world's gambling sites are using the MIT servers is because they are reliable and they are on native land - where the Canadian/Provincial governments can't or won't interfere.

    If the governments have a change of heart and actually shut down these servers, where do you think all the sites are going to set up shop? Certainly not in a better location! They'll move their operations to servers located in other sleazy off shore locations where they aren't regulated.

    Withdrawing a license does not mean the gambling business can't continue to use the MIT servers.... Absolute is a perfect example. The license/regulations imposed by the Mohawks have no teeth and are nothing more than a means to making more profit.
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    Quote Originally Posted by thepokerkeep View Post
    All the Mohawks are interested in is the money....
    I agree.
    What they claim to be "up to" is plain nonsense and other than providing licenses to anyone, they do not do a thing. "Responsibility" is an unknown word for them, which is why I do not like to see them in this business.

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    Actually I'm not missing the point.

    You've not listen to what I've said, that's all (no offence intended).

    I understand what your saying, but, the the likelihood of the Canadian Gov, more so Quebec Gov doing anything to disturb the status quo of Kahnawake pertaining to its gaming licensing is not likely to happen.

    I wont go into the why's and why nots as it will likely feed a thread that will exceed the Guinness Book of Records for single forum thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by thepokerkeep View Post
    I can post that I love liver and onions.... does it mean i really do?
    Unless your issuing gaming licenses, it does matter either way.

    What does matter (why I think your missing the point) is the Kahnawake have a responsibility to ensure that they tell the truth & act in accordance to their own guidelines and self imposed protocols.

    Otherwise Kahnawake are nothing more than a sham.

    Though that would be nothing new...the industry is chocka block full of self proclaimed watchdogs that are nothing more than serving their own agenda(s) to fulfil their greedy needs anyway.



    Cheers

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    Last edited by AussieDave; 3 December 2007 at 11:19 am.
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    Dave,

    That is my point. The licensing is a sham. It's just another way for the Mohawks to collect cash and look like they're "regulating" their customers. that's why I say licensing doesn't matter. But the servers do! They matter to the 60% of the industry who use them. That was the context of my original post.

    Regulating the industry is not going to come from a band of natives. It has to come from within the industry itself.
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    Quote Originally Posted by thepokerkeep View Post
    It has to come from within the industry itself.
    It's been 11 years and apart from a few the industry is still do as you please.

    Take Spin Palace for instance....I nailed them to the fence regarding SPAM & they were supposed to be one of the better places.

    xxxhttp://www.gibraltar.gov.gi/

    Supports online gaming and issuing of Licenses is by the Government. That to me, although not ideal, is a step in the right direction.

    Kahnawake, IGC and the like were all born from the old school (old days) when online gaming was a virtual Dodge City.

    The biggest problem facing the industry is the industry itself. Personally I don't see how the industry can regulate itself.

    Everytime it tries it f#cks it up.

    Take eCogra for instance...On one hand they state "only play where you see this seal' while buried on another page they state" they can't or wont be held responsible for any sealed casinos"...

    eCogra's strings are pulled by Microgaming who funded and set then up.

    Another example as to why self regulation wont work.

    Problem with the industry is people are too greedy and can't see the forest for the trees. Unfortunately this type of mentality always comes back to bite people in the butt.

    Does anyone give a ****, NO
    Does anyone listen, NO
    Will this problem, probably be the demise of the industry, YES



    Cheers



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