Mastercard - Speak to your reps NOW.

[nitro]

Damn I really think we should arrange a conference here in Orlando/Kissimmee....

Ayre, Rivals, Rushmore & Co should better arrange a payment option for US players that is located outside the reach of the US regime, cheap & relatively easy to open and where the fundings couldn't be distinguished as gambling transactions (like bankwiring money from a US bank account to a swiss bank account - a foreign bank account with a CC funding option attached to it would do the trick for example) from where the money would then be transfered to the wallets that would be used to fund the gambling establishments otherwise everyone that caters mainly towards the US could be out of business soon together with their affiliates.

Just my 2 cents

[universal4]

Why you quoted that piece from one of my posts, and then posted something unrelated to the quote???

I do agree that operators need to look more closely at the way in which they proccess transactions, but if it was a simple as you think it is, they would give you more than a few cents to work it out.

Rick
Universal4

[bb1web]

So don't code it as gambling, nor as MIS, sell time spent in a private membership site. Sell a software that doesn't exist but that needs to be purchased every time you choose to interact with it.

Code it to anything but what they aren't letting thru.

Who's going to step up and call you a liar if you claim to be selling one hour virtual hotel room memberships for the buyer and his guest to spend inside ... doing whatever the hell they want, they didn't invite you!



I know for a fact there is one software network which is having themselves appear as a "hardware" store, or something they couldn't possibly be mistaken for gambling (memory fails me the exact details). if you deposit ... say $100. On your bill it will appear as the name of the fake company they're wanting to pretend to be, plus the charge which would appear as $99.95.

the amount is always an odd amount slightly less than what was actually deposited by the player.

[TheGooner]

all pretty obvious stuff unfortunately bb1web and something that the credit card companies have turned a blind eye to - because they were making a percentage from every deposit.

However, the credit card companies have always had the data, and the skills, and the abilities to detect likely gambling fronts (multiple deposits in a day, over the internet / cardholder not present, from specific jurisdictions).

Now with the impending UIGEA and the prosecution of the Canadian one-man processor, it appears that the corportate decision has come through to forgo that market and actually actively stamp it out.

To code it as something else, and to willingly allow it to be incorrectly coded is money-laundering, and potentially illegal for US customers and corporates ... as long as the US government interprets the UIGEA the way that they are publically stating.

No major financial company wants to pick that fight - much easier to simly exit that sector.

[dhayman]

So glad that our revenue-generating government police dogs are behind this. Really makes you feel that we're getting our money's worth from the government.....NOT ! With UIGEA rules still somewhat nebulous and virtually un-enforceable, it's really a wonder that MC and Visa would voluntarily take this revenue hit.

[nitro]

I've spent the last two days researching the stuff and there is probably a way how to screw up the party.

Anno 1996 a company named e-gold (which as of now is in serious trouble because it was located under the US jurisdiction and was raided by the US goverment about 18 months ago) invented the world of alternative payment methods. A couple of other companies follow suit but nevertheless due to a couple of reasons they never managed to become mainstream but a small number of them are still up and running and operational.

Like this one for example:

https://www.libertyreserve.com/en/

It works basically like an e-wallet and can be compared to moneybookers/neteller and this is the way the company advertizes itself:

https://www.libertyreserve.com/en/fees/index.aspx

But there is a crucial difference if you compare it to the mainstream wallets. If you want to fund the libertyreserve account you don't make a bankwire/credit card transaction/whatever to this company's accounts but you have to use the so called exchangers:

https://www.libertyreserve.com/en/exchangers/index.aspx

An exchanger is a small company which offers various deposit and withdrawal methods to fund or withdraw money from your libertyreserve account (and get the money to fund their libertyreserve account from the company itself). Like this one for example:

http://centregold.ca/

So if you want to fund your LR account via a bankwire for example you transfer the desired amount to this company's let say US bank account, pay a small fee for the exchange and when the exchanger receives the money it makes a money transfer to your LR account. If you want to withdraw money from LR you can use this one or another exchanger to withdraw to let say credit card or moneygram (for a small fee of course). An exchanger offers basically as many deposits and withdraw methods as possible and just shifts the money.

This idea is quite interesting because if you do the funding from the US this isn't classified as gambling transaction but looks like a normal business transfer and even if the US gambling market has a size of let say US $20 billion / year this is just a trickle compared to the size of the US economy.

The various e-currencies were setup with the idea to make free commerce possible and under jurisdiction where the US regime doesn't have access to like costa rica in case of liberty reserve:

https://www.libertyreserve.com/en/corporate/index.aspx

...and don't have a problem to fund gambling sites (under entertainment):

https://www.libertyreserve.com/en/merchants/index.aspx

so once the money is in the LR account it can be used wherever you like it to and is out of reach of the US authorities so it cannot be proven that the money in there is used for gambling transactions. Given that it is an e-wallet instant transfers are possible and there isn't any problem with the chargebacks.

The problem will be of course that the authorities will sooner or later find out that a wallet is mainly used for gambling transaction. The beauty of the concept is however that given the size of the market you could sustain without any problems let say 200-300 exchangers making the payment process not static but DYNAMIC (adapting to the pressure applied by authorities). The authorities can finish off a wallet like quicktender pretty quickly because it is quite easy to cut the funding via CC/bankwire and the wallet is done. An exchanger looks from a bank's point of view like a normal business that is offering a lot of payment options (and does not have to be necessarily located in the US) and even if the authorities should become interested in one payment option or another it can quickly adapt and switch to another ones or even another countries. Should the authorities manage to take down a couple of exchangers (which is rather improbable because it cannot be proven that the exchange money is used for gambling) this will not change anything because there are a lot of alternatives around who can quickly adapt to new circumstances and new exchangers constantly coming up too...

Liberty Reserve is not the only alternative payment method which can be funded this way. You got for example:

Perfect Money: http://www.perfectmoney.com/ ...which is located in Panama.
C-Gold: https://c-gold.com/ ...which resides on the Seychelles.

...and a couple of others who can be funded by the exchangers.

I believe this is the best way to go about the problem because the exchangers would make sure that the US customers have a lot of payment options available to them and due to the competition amongst them and the size of the market the exchange fees would be probably not more than 1%.

The biggest problem in this arrangement is that this world of alternative payment methods is an even bigger mess than online gambling and it would take some time and a lot of effort to make it work reliable and especially making sure that the authorities don't have any access to the couple of wallets who are the core of the concept.

But should that succeed it is quite possible that the online gambling industry will be able to grow even if UIGEA is fully implemented and a concept like this is especially interesting when dealing with countries that may come up with the same ideas like the US.

I hope the stuff that i written here makes any sense and should i have overseen something please let me know...Thanx.

[nitro]

Why you quoted that piece from one of my posts, and then posted something unrelated to the quote???

If the funding is cut there is no online gambling in the US, therefore no affiliates too and assuming that you mainly cater towards the US market no conferences will be needed too...

I do agree that operators need to look more closely at the way in which they proccess transactions, but if it was a simple as you think it is, they would give you more than a few cents to work it out.

I never said that it was simple: just look above.

[TheGooner]

I hope the stuff that i written here makes any sense and should i have overseen something please let me know...Thanx.

You haven't missed anything specific Nitro - other than the main point.

The solution needs to be something easy to use and general to the public in general - and these e-gold wallets are anything but!

What you are outlining is something that affiliates might setup and use - or possibly even real hard-core gamblers ... but not Joe and Jill Public.

A wallet that uses a confusing myriad of intermediate payment processors to avoid confusion and detection?
Try selling that to the minds of the general public and not being accused of money laundering of "illegal gambling" ...


The solution is to overturn the UIGEA law. Nothing less.

[nitro]

The solution is not being ripped off by the state but changing the minds of payment processors.

[JonOfFinsbury]

POKERSTARS has clarified its position regarding credit card payments from US-based customers, making clear that it does not re-code ‘7995’ online gambling transactions...

[nitro]

A goverment that tries to tell you what to do with your own money acts illegal. The problem is that to get a MBA from London School of Economics you have to be unable to develop any kind of meaningful ideas and instantly obey every sort of authority you encounter Pokerstars & Co.

[nitro]

The solution needs to be something easy to use and general to the public in general - and these e-gold wallets are anything but!

Joe from the public will grasp the concept within 2 minutes and the difference he will notice is that there will be a lot more payment options that he didn't have before which will be a lot cheaper that is the case now due to competition between the exchangers.

A wallet that uses a confusing myriad of intermediate payment processors to avoid confusion and detection?
Try selling that to the minds of the general public and not being accused of money laundering of "illegal gambling" ...

The regime will of course bitch about it but will not be able to do anything if it is setup properly. You will have a lot of sympathy (and protection) from various financial interests for this kind of project and maybe even from public opinion if it is lobbied appriopriately.

[dhayman]

You haven't missed anything specific Nitro
The solution is to overturn the UIGEA law. Nothing less.

Yes, I agree with that. However, it will be many, many years before that happens, due to potential political backlash. There is no way that any legislation will make its way for voting before an election. Additionally, if/when UIGEA is overturned, you can be rest assured that there will specific pieces of the legislation that exclude "off-site" companies from participating in our jurisdictions. This will lead to more WTO and Euro fighting, but it will be, what it will be.

[nitro]

The idea presented above is just the basic concept - safeguards can be built into that later on to prevent money laundering and stuff like that.

[nitro]

Yes, I agree with that. However, it will be many, many years before that happens, due to potential political backlash. There is no way that any legislation will make its way for voting before an election. Additionally, if/when UIGEA is overturned, you can be rest assured that there will specific pieces of the legislation that exclude "off-site" companies from participating in our jurisdictions. This will lead to more WTO and Euro fighting, but it will be, what it will be.

The current "legalization/liberalization" process will end up either the goverments running the online gambling business themselves or tax it so heavily that it will generate more money for them that a state monopoly.

[Caruso]

Oh God streuth, it's Nitro. Nitro The Revolutionary.

Just a note to the assembled masses that this maniac spent a good six months wagering an unhinged, machinegun-like posting war on the Beating Bonuses forum, castigating anyone who would listen about the apparent destruction they had wreaked on the advantage play scene. Having pissed of the entire membership, he proceeded to sign up fully fourteen new accounts to continue his campaign. His last offering, a foul-mouthed diatribe against anyone and everyone including the forum administrator, was deleted, since which time he has thankfully been absent.

His arrival at GPWA isn't the best of developments.

[nitro]

Just a note to the assembled masses that this maniac spent a good six months wagering an unhinged, machinegun-like posting war on the Beating Bonuses forum, castigating anyone who would listen about the apparent destruction they had wreaked on the advantage play scene. Having pissed of the entire membership, he proceeded to sign up fully fourteen new accounts to continue his campaign. His last offering, a foul-mouthed diatribe against anyone and everyone including the forum administrator, was deleted, since which time he has thankfully been absent.

Do you have any intelligent comment to offer considering the idea above or are you just able to write this kind of bullshit caruso?

[Caruso]

I have nothing to say to any of your chaotic rantings. You long ago lost any right of hearing with either me or any of the other people subjected to your ceaseless, incomprehensible tirades of nonsense at the BB forum.

I noted your signup here last month. Now that I see a similar Kalashnikov-style emerging in your posting, I thought it in order to point out your history of incomprehensible rabble-rousing and pseudo-revolutionary babble. I have nothing else to say to you here. I just hope you can reign it in a bit better, though I'm not holding my breath.

[nitro]

Is there a single thing the advantage playing canaille can be good for or are these people only about destruction and nothing else yokspot ?

[baldidiot]

Could US players use pre-paid cards (mastercard and visa both offer them) that were bought abroad?

If so, a simple solution could be for somebody to start importing them for this use. Or is this a dumb idea?