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  1. #1
    Caruso is offline Public Member
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    Default Rushmore Casino steals $7444 with no adequate explanation given

    Rushmore Casino stole $7444 from a Hungarian player a few months back. Absolutely no adequate explanation has been forthcoming from the casino.

    I'm raising the matter now because I note that, FWIW, a Rushmore Casino Gambling Grumbles report has been made, and since it was my suggestion to the player to file that complaint, I didn't want to overlap the procedures. The explanation in the above report is adequate, but I'll save you the bother of reading it with a summary here:

    The player was "investigated" as part of a wider investigation Rushmore apparently carried out after it was claimed that ID fraud had taken place through stolen passports. This player was not involved, but he got caught up in the investigation on the basis of time and location. He was investigated by two independent professionals, one Hungarian and one British. He was exonerated - there was nothing false in any of his dealings with the casino. The investigators reported back thus to Rushmore.

    Rushmore refused to pay.

    The investigators were surprised, but decided to go one step further, and physically verify the player with a heads up meeting. They did. All good.

    Rushmore still refused to pay.

    Their rationale was this: the player, of student age, is resident with his mother, though having student accomodation elsewhere. Since his parental home is his official residence, he listed it in his Rushmore account. Of course, his mum's name is on the title deeds.

    And that's all there is to it. Because Rushmore found his mum's name, and not his, on the residency register (or whatever it's called), they claimed that the player had lied about his home, because this residence - his mum's - was not his, his name being missing from the registry. Basically, he "provided false and or misleading information", which he did not. There was no question of fraud even raised - Rushmore at that point had lost this angle.

    As lame excuses to not pay, this one takes the biscuit.

    If you're young (and even old for that matter, in some cases) you will almost certainly not have your name on any official resedency register, as your home will be your parents' home. It cannot work any other way, until you get your own home, rented or purchased, which you can list yourself in the relevant register.

    FWIW, I've looked at all the player's documents myself, and they appear as genuine as any document I've ever sent to a casino for verification. But then, far more relevant is the fact that the two independent investigators fully exonerated this player of any wrongdoing.

    Here are some of the investigator's perplexed responses to the player - he cannot understand why Rushmore is refusing to pay, after he and his partner made their clean report to the casino:

    In March I received feedback from my British partner that your case is resolved. This is what I wanted to share with you. That's why it was incomprehensible for me that the casino questioned your address in spite of this.
    At the end, the investigator just threw up his hands in despair:

    I'm very sorry that this is their decision, which is incomprehensible for me and for my colleague, too. My possibilities are exhausted with this, unfortunately.
    Also he said:

    My personal opinion is that the casino doesn't play with honest cards.
    Yeah, no kidding.

    If you are a player who chances upon this post, please bear in mind that if you patronise Rushmore Casino, and do absolutely nothing wrong, Rushmore has a history of not paying, irrespective of the legitmacy of your cashout.

    As such, my advice is to avoid this casino at all costs. This is way too great a risk.

    Since Rushmore is heavily promoted by many GPWA members, this might be of interest to you.

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  3. #2
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    I let Ben know about this thread.
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  4. #3
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    hum.. this is interesting indeed... I wonder what Ben as to say about this
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  5. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caruso View Post
    Their rationale was this: the player, of student age, is resident with his mother, though having student accomodation elsewhere. Since his parental home is his official residence, he listed it in his Rushmore account. Of course, his mum's name is on the title deeds.

    I don't understand why the player didn't just use the address where they resided. Isn't that what we're supposed to do when we register for online casinos? Give the address that we live?

    Either way, if it's proven that the other address is the players parents address and not just a made up address or something, it shouldn't be a big deal. Every time I've ever had to send document into any casino, they ALWAYS ask me for a current utility bill or bank statement to show my name and physical address as being where I said it was. I don't have any utilities or bank statements with my name and this address on it. That's never been a problem anywhere though. They then ask for ANY piece of mail that shows this physical address and my name. That's reasonable. I sometimes have to dig a bit, but can always find that. The player could provide a piece of mail fairly easily.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caruso View Post
    because this residence - his mum's - was not his, his name being missing from the registry.
    I don't understand this part, or what a registry is since I'm in the states and we don't use that word I for our residence I guess. Does that mean, who's name is on the title to the house or the lease to the house? If so, that's ridiculous and is even hard to believe that Rushmore or any casino would require that, and not just a piece of mail like they all ask me for.

    Have you tried to offer-up a solution to Rushmore to prove that it is his mom for sure, or show a piece of mail there with his name and that address?

    It just seems that this is an issue that could be resolved with a little bit of effort on the players part to prove his relation to the address he gave.

    I hope this gets worked out.

  6. #5
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    The player was "investigated" as part of a wider investigation Rushmore apparently carried out after it was claimed that ID fraud had taken place through stolen passports.
    I have 10 banned players at C-Planet.

    So I inquired and the relpy was, some closed their account, some had chargebacks at other casinos and some were part of a fraud ring.

    Maybe every one should see if they have banned players and why.

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  8. #6
    Caruso is offline Public Member
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    Oh right, shift it out of the public view.

    Nice one, GPWA.

    Why not just do the honest thing and delete the thread? You know you want to. I might even respect you more.

    And to think I supported you over Cardspike. You're no better than CAP.

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    Hi everyone, I'm the player with this issue.

    Here is the story in more detail:
    http://mb.winneronline.com/showthread.html?t=39248

    Quote Originally Posted by Daera View Post
    I don't understand why the player didn't just use the address where they resided.
    Because I'm supposed to register with my permanent address and not with the temporary one. The address is not just my mother's address but also my permanent, official address and it is registered at every official place and written in my government ID.

    Have you tried to offer-up a solution to Rushmore to prove that it is his mom for sure, or show a piece of mail there with his name and that address?
    Rushmore has never denied that it is my mother's address. The problem is that they are totally ignoring the fact that the address is also mine and not just my mother's, and they keep saying this:

    "This is actually the address of his mother. We can not verify this player and refuse the right to pay the player. False information was provided, and this is not his residence."

    It just seems that this is an issue that could be resolved with a little bit of effort on the players part to prove his relation to the address he gave.
    The issue is now one and a half year old. During this time I made pretty much effort to solve it, however Rushmore doesn't want to admit that they made a mistake. They are simply ignoring the e-mails so it's not easy to communicate with them.

    I have also used the mediation service at gamblinggrumbles.com, the casino was contacted by Steve Russo but Rushmore was still not willing to solve the issue. As a result, Steve has removed Rushmore Casino from the Recommended Casinos list.

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  11. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caruso View Post
    Oh right, shift it out of the public view.

    Nice one, GPWA.

    Why not just do the honest thing and delete the thread? You know you want to. I might even respect you more.

    And to think I supported you over Cardspike. You're no better than CAP.
    Huh? What am I missing here? Are the above comments a response to Anthony's post about notifying Ben? Or am I missing something else?
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  13. #9
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    We actually dug through this issue over at the GIA and although we gave it an honest try, we got absolutly no where with it and I understand completly why Caruso brought this up here at the GPWA.

    From the statements made in the forum as well as some of the email correspondence I have read from the player, I too think this was a case that got mixed up with other cases that they were investigating at the time, and in my own personal opinion I think the player was right and did in fact deserve the payout.

    As far as the address stuff, I too have had (and still do at a few places) have a similar situation.

    For MANY years I carried a drivers license that listed my home address as a PO Box, and many of my utility bills go to the box.

    Normally any time I joined a casino I would put my PO Box address down since if I needed to verify docs, that was the only address I could show on an ID.

    Now, for most people (although I can not speak for casino customer service reps) most people can understand that I do not actually live or even sleep in my PO Box, and that I must physically live somewhere else....but if I supply identification and bills etc that show a residence, that's pretty good evidence I am who I say I am.

    And when a casino hires an outside invetigator to verfy such things as photo ID as well as residence, it would only make sense for the casino to in fact take the investigators recommendation into account after they turn it in.

    During the correspondence among the involved parties, I kept an open mind and was willing to listen to all sides of the issue, and at no time was any evidence shown or provided to me that would change my mind about the player deserving his winnings.

    In my scenario above, I used the PO Box as my permanent address because although I have moved a few times over the last 10 years, the PO Box address has not changed since the 80's, and has been more permanent than any street address I have had.

    Rick
    Universal4

    As a side note: The last time I renewed my drivers license I had to change my address to the street address, and I likely have some casinos listed as the box address still to this day....(since I rarely win this isn't usually a problem...lol )
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  15. #10
    casinogamespro is offline Private Member
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    Hi,

    I rarely participate in forum discussions, but I cannot ignore this thread.

    ""This is actually the address of his mother. We can not verify this player and refuse the right to pay the player. False information was provided, and this is not his residence."


    The above is not a serious reason to decline and stop a withdrawal request and looks like an excuse in order to avoid payment.

    On first place, this player did not provide any false information and just signed up with his temporal billing address. There are thousands of players in every established online casino who use their temporal address. In order to verify this address Support agents may request an additional proves like: utility bill, bank statement, contract for rent and many more documents.

    Support can also request a Notarized Identity Card in order to verify the player's identity or even a birth certificate.

    There are hundreds of ways to verify if one player is legit or fraud and the explanation provided by C-Planet is just not serious.

    In such case player may contact the Curacao Gaming Commission and request an arbitrage.

    Ben- please advise what is the status of this case and why the payment of this player was rejected.

    Regards,
    CGP

  16. #11
    Embalu is offline Public Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by casinogamespro View Post
    On first place, this player did not provide any false information and just signed up with his temporal billing address. There are thousands of players in every established online casino who use their temporal address. In order to verify this address Support agents may request an additional proves like: utility bill, bank statement, contract for rent and many more documents.

    Support can also request a Notarized Identity Card in order to verify the player's identity or even a birth certificate.

    There are hundreds of ways to verify if one player is legit or fraud and the explanation provided by C-Planet is just not serious.
    Just a small correction: I signed up with my permanent address, not with the temporary one. My permanent, official address is the same as my mother's address, while the temporary address is the one that I'm renting.

    Yes, my permanent address is verifiable in many ways, all mails, utility bills and bank statements go there and the address is written in my government ID, but Rushmore is just ignoring all the address proof documents, as well as the investigator's face-to-face verification.

  17. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Embalu View Post
    Just a small correction: I signed up with my permanent address, not with the temporary one. My permanent, official address is the same as my mother's address, while the temporary address is the one that I'm renting.

    Yes, my permanent address is verifiable in many ways, all mails, utility bills and bank statements go there and the address is written in my government ID, but Rushmore is just ignoring all the address proof documents, as well as the investigator's face-to-face verification.
    By chance, is the address your mother is at, and the address you were playing from, sit in two different countries?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Embalu View Post
    Just a small correction: I signed up with my permanent address, not with the temporary one. My permanent, official address is the same as my mother's address, while the temporary address is the one that I'm renting.

    Yes, my permanent address is verifiable in many ways, all mails, utility bills and bank statements go there and the address is written in my government ID, but Rushmore is just ignoring all the address proof documents, as well as the investigator's face-to-face verification.
    I was just reading some posts of yours at Casinomeisters. Wow.. you have been a patient player in the past. Waiting for 6 and 7 months for cashouts to be paid from other casinos. I'd think you'd be losing faith in online gambling about now.

    I hope this gets resolved for you.

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    This issue needs to be addressed asap, if not Rushmore and their sisters will be removed from my sites.

    Players need to be paid swiftly with no hesitation.


    I HATE TO SEE PLAYERS THAT HAVE SERIOUS COMPLAINTS AT ACCREDITED CASINOS !


    Please Ben do not let this issue grow out of proportions.

    Thanks!

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  21. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daera View Post
    By chance, is the address your mother is at, and the address you were playing from, sit in two different countries?
    No, both in Hungary.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daera View Post
    I was just reading some posts of yours at Casinomeisters. Wow.. you have been a patient player in the past. Waiting for 6 and 7 months for cashouts to be paid from other casinos. I'd think you'd be losing faith in online gambling about now.

    I hope this gets resolved for you.
    Thanks.

    Yes, that's another story, it was 6 years ago. Those two casinos had serious cash-flow problems but at least they paid at the end, in "only" 7.5 months. Rushmore now owes me for almost 1.5 years...

  22. #16
    Rushmore Ben is offline Public Member
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    Hi,

    Thanks for letting me know about this thread.
    I will talk to casino management and see if there is anything that can be done about this. I personally don't take care of player issues, but I will forward it to those responsible.

    I was under the impression that it had been solved but obviously not.

    Regards

    Ben

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    Quote Originally Posted by APCW View Post
    I let Ben know about this thread.

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    I am sorry Ben, but you KNEW it was NOT SOLVED!!

    Rick
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    Rushmore Ben is offline Public Member
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    Hi Rick,

    As in my previous post , I do not take care of player complaints.
    I understand your frustration from the capital bold letters.

    Ive said i will try and help and that's what i will do.

    Regards

    Ben


    Quote Originally Posted by universal4 View Post
    I am sorry Ben, but you KNEW it was NOT SOLVED!!

    Rick
    Universal4

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  27. #19
    Steve Russo is offline Public Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by casinogamespro View Post

    ""This is actually the address of his mother. We can not verify this player and refuse the right to pay the player. False information was provided, and this is not his residence."


    The above is not a serious reason to decline and stop a withdrawal request and looks like an excuse in order to avoid payment.
    At this point, I would like to quote from the Gambling Grumbles Report (not only because it shows that the address issue turned out to be completely irrelevant but also to allow all of you to have the immense pleasure of reading my deathless prose):

    We wrote back, asking the casino the following question:

    "For a moment, let me go on the assumption that he is telling the truth: That his legal residence is at his mother's house, that he proved his identity to a Hungarian investigator who works for a British investigator that you hired, and that he has a second, temporary, residence. If you were satisfied with all that, would you have paid him?

    "If not, why not? Would having the second residence automatically disqualify him? (I am thinking of my own children, both of whom are in entry-level jobs in other cities, and have rented apartments -- but keep my home as their legal residence for their bank accounts, voting, driving licenses, etc.) Would they be disqualified from collecting their winnings if they gave you my address when registering?"

    As it turns out, even then the casino would not have paid:

    "We would have not paid him even if the residential address issue would have been cleared," Louise answered. "This is due to other investigations which were carried out which show connections between several players which in most cases were connected by e-wallet account, played the same games, redeemed the same bonuses, won the same amounts, had the same game play which was thoroughly investigated, connections with IP addresses etc etc."

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    The player was "investigated" as part of a wider investigation Rushmore apparently carried out after it was claimed that ID fraud had taken place through stolen passports. This player was not involved, but he got caught up in the investigation on the basis of time and location. He was investigated by two independent professionals, one Hungarian and one British. He was exonerated - there was nothing false in any of his dealings with the casino. The investigators reported back thus to Rushmore.

    "We would have not paid him even if the residential address issue would have been cleared," Louise answered. "This is due to other investigations which were carried out which show connections between several players which in most cases were connected by e-wallet account, played the same games, redeemed the same bonuses, won the same amounts, had the same game play which was thoroughly investigated, connections with IP addresses etc etc."

    Ok then, it sounds like Rushmore is saying that the problem here isn't even about the address, but is about the other wider investigation of the id fraud. You say he was exonerated. It doesn't sound like Rushmore agreed that he wasn't part of that group they were investigating.

    I understand this has been going on for a long time now. I really hope that Ben, or someone else from Rushmore will come in and clear this up once and for all. A year and a half is a ridiculous long time. It seems like a lot of people are behind this player. It sure would suck to be an innocent player and get shafted due to bad timing and coincidence, if that turns out to be the case.

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