Should affiliates that scam casinos be outed?

[casinojack]

Tricky question, and let me explain...

Sadly, some affiliates have hurt some of us casino guys and gals. A few affiliate managers and I have been discussing if this info should go public.
Of course real user information would not be public, but screen names, website, and what happened would...

Thoughts? Concerns? Questions?

Part 2 of this maybe we figure out a way to mediate these things...?

EDIT: example post might be:

GPWA user name: CasinoJack
First name: Brian
Website: Webcasinonews.com
Issue: Charged back $1,000 as a player, and does not return calls.

[joeyl]

Of course.

[Fergie]

Yes, they should be outted.
Although what we affiliates can do about it is not much.

If operators and affiliate programs have their own community or venue, where they share information, etc., then that venue should be used.

That being said, and this goes without saying but I'll say it anyway: There must be absolute proof before anybody is publicly accused of wrongdoing.

[Integrity]

It is no secret that there are good and bad people on all sides of this industry, and in every segment. Just as there are "rogue" operators in our past, there have also been affiliates who engage in click fraud, CPA fraud, cookie stuffing, and threats made against honest programs. I believe it's therefore a very good idea to have a process in place to expose "bad" webmasters, because thay make this job more difficult for those of us who are honest.

.

[Betpartners]

You would be on dangerous ground imo

You would need 100% proof for starters and even then you may think you have 100% proof until such a time that the webmaster would come along and give a totally different angle on the situation.

The amount of threads i read that Casinos belive they are 100% in a situation but the players/affiliates think they are not is mind blowing.

A quick search on CM will show you that, even on here we had one with Rome casino, they thought they were 100% in the right and it took page after page of attacks, abuse, critism, advice, call it what you like before they came to a compromise.

But through all that they felt they were 100% right.

And if they feel they are 100% right in a situation what is to stop them naming and shaming

That said the Programs should have some sort of mechanism to out scam artists in the same way that affiliates have to out casino scam artists.

But for a casino to achieve that level playing field is not as easy as it would appear and the way you suggest mate looks like it may cause more problems than it is worth.

[thepokerkeep]

Mediation seems like a reasonable solution to me.

[Players Luck - Jamie]

Mediation seems like a reasonable solution to me.

Mediation via GPWA would be good, If GPWA were able to offer this service.
It seems that both affiliates and Casino operators both come here.

Its seems logical to me anyway.

[Shaun O'neill]

OK so let m eask this, why is it ikay for an affiliate to out an opertaor but when we get scammed we have to watch out.

A number of chats in the affiliate manager section have showed clear scam and we are talking about serious money.

Shaun

[mojo]

EDIT: example post might be:

GPWA user name: CasinoJack
First name: Brian
Website: Webcasinonews.com
Issue: Charged back $1,000 as a player, and does not return calls.

I think if you are outing them as a player you may have some privacy issues.

If an affiliate is doing chargebacks as a player, they should not be collecting as an affiliate. Can you close their affiliate account?

[topboss]

I agree that there are sadly some rotten egg affiliates out there and they should also be publicly pulled up for it, just like we do with affiliate programs when they are caught with their fingers in the cookie jar.
However, We need to be sure of the facts and for this reason I would think we should have a private post first whereby the casino and affiliate can state their case and once it is determined that the affiliate is guilty - a public post should then be made.
Bad affiliates give all of us in the industry a bad name so they should be ousted.

[Betpartners]

OK so let m eask this, why is it ikay for an affiliate to out an opertaor but when we get scammed we have to watch out.

A number of chats in the affiliate manager section have showed clear scam and we are talking about serious money.

Shaun

Shaun no one is saying they should not be outed, what we are saying is you have to be careful.

Also you are comparing apples with pears, when a casino scams it involves hundreds, possibly thousands of affiliates, when an affiliate scams we are talking a single person.

Secondly when a casino is outed it is done by investigation by a community, as an example when someone comes on here and says a casino did this and did that all sorts of people respond and give examples and do investigations.

If an affiliate comes on here and says a casino did this or that and is wrong he is then told so by the community.

The investigation open and transparaent and a casino is only ever outed after a thorough analysis.

Sure some affiliates come on here and elsewhere and say this casino sucks, they should be rogued la la la, but the members on here dont jump in line because one person says so, they ask questions and give their honest opinion.

If a casino is unfairly outed on here the person that does it is taken to task, you know this.

What you are proposing is a name and shame after the casino's have investigated in private.

What you could do is come out and ask the community for their opinion if a person should be outed.

You could say Person A did this and this is the evidence.

You could then email and contact this person and let them know that even though you have not named then YET you have exposed what they have done and give them an opportunity to respond.

If they dont respond, or their response is insufficient and everyone agress then name and shame them.

I fully agree that you should be entitled to out affiliates that scam as i said in my post.

But you have to have the right mechanism.

Do affiliates have the right mechanism?

Sometimes no mate

But that dont mean that because on occasions affiliates do it wrong that it should be the template for you to follow

[GamTrak]

I voted for mediation to be a solution. Both parties should be able to present a case and then a vote taken.

IMO anyone that is cheating should be outted.

[bb1web]

Hi all,

I imagine when there is a scam happening from the aff side that its a much easier thing to spot because unlike affs ... the sponsors have ALL the information in front of them. There's little left for speculation where as affs often if ever ... have the full details to any situation and as such ... we do what BetPartners said. It is approached using the help of the community which allows to spot a pattern which helps fill in those gaps that affs have missing.

back to sponsors.

They have all the information without there being any type of "faith" or trust involved in the stats of a 3rd party meaning that if they cry scam that it is likely going to be just that.

I do agree that every precaution be taken before accusations are made but I would assume that is Jack's intention in the first place

......

Yes it is a good thing to out scamming affs because I for one would not support them any more than I would a sponsor that rewards black hatters. I wouldn't want to be linked to their websites or be of any kind of help.

While there are programs which don't ... I view my partnership with a sponsor as a true partnership and no more would i seek to cheat or screw my partner ..... or be cheated by them .. would I allow a 3rd party entity to cheat my partner.

I look after those that look after me. I won't do anything unethical for them .. but at same time I certainly won't allow anything unethical be done to them.

[Chalkie]

My opinion is this:

If an affiliate is allowed to complain of a program in public with just their evidence and allow their peers to comment and help make the program suffer or not, as the case may prevail ...

Then why should a program not be allowed to do just that?

After all, as already mentioned, the program has all the evidence up front, unlike the affiliates who have to gather it between each other.

Thing is this, should it be done in public on a place like here that is very affiliate weighted?

Perhaps the problem is that due to so many rogue programs being in this industry that it is attracting as many rogues on the other side of the fence?

I dont like scammers on either side of the fence, however, feel the time is right to clean the operators up before the operators have the audacity to want to clean the affiliates side up. That should be done by yourselves behind closed doors, anyway, you programs all talk and can easily help each other out on that basis. Police it yourself i say, at your own time and cost not ours.

That last paragraph may sound a little strong and unfair, however, there is far more money being stolen from affiliates than there will ever be from programs at this moment in time.

[Doolally]

I'd have no problem with both sides of the story coming out for all to judge who is right and who is wrong. Some kind of mediation in this case would be a must if this is the way we're going, probably by an affiliate and a program mediator.

[Betpartners]

The thing is this how many times when a program has all the info in front of them do they still refuse to accept the majority opinion.

A classic example again is Rome Casino, they had all the info in front of them, they made their decision and they felt they were 100% right.

Affiliates did not know and still do not know all the info,as an example in the Rome case did the "other" affiliate really get the whole 16k but the affiliates still knew Rome was wrong regardless.

So the programs having all the info in front of them does not neccasarilty mean they are right.

Secondly the arguement that affiliates come to the public arena why cant programs is also not so straightforward.

When an affiliate accuses a program they are accusing a program, that program when proven wrong can fire staff, do whats right etc while at the same time remaining anonymous apart from affiliate managers whose names we know.

Programs can name people, not companies, there is a difference here, if a program accuses John Smith then that is it, he is named, affiliates cannot name people from the programs just the programs itself.

Example how many of you can name employees of Grand Prive, not many i would guess.

Those employees can move on to other companies, possibly even the executive that made the decision to close down the program.

Also programs have details like phone numbers, addresses, website details and so on, affiliates have at best an affiliate managers name and that is it best.

Try naming and shaming say Europartners, not see easy when you can get emails from 7-8 different managers, same with affiliate united.

Naming a person is so much different than naming a company if you are not 100% right.

But as i said in my first post, yes programs should have a mechanism for naming and shaming, i agree with that, i just dont agree with this method, i think it is full of holes and can lead to someone being named and shamed by mistake.

So much easier for a company to repair false accusations than it is for a single individual.

What mechanism you choose i dont know, mediation may work but then programs will demand that from affiliates before we accuse them.

I understand the anger of programs when they are ripped off and yes it harms genuine affiliates in an indirect way.

Whats the answer, i honestly dont know.

[Chalkie]

In my mind, the only reason to name and shame an affiliate is for the programs benefit, therefore the programs should have their own forum, that is open only to programs where they can name and shame at will.

Perhaps there could be a forum here private to programs, however, better still, get your own forum and do as you so desire!

You could even sell sponsorship on it to affiliates!

[GamTrak]

I thought they had that at the un-original GAP? If I recall that idea did not work out very well as they have as much infighting as us affiliates! Sorry to joke about it, but IMO it's true.

In my mind, the only reason to name and shame an affiliate is for the programs benefit, therefore the programs should have their own forum, that is open only to programs where they can name and shame at will.

[GamTrak]

Example how many of you can name employees of Grand Prive, not many i would guess.

I can.

[ironman2000]

Anyone or group caught spamming or scamming any online gaming program,wheather it be Casino,Poker,Forex or skill gaming should be ousted from our community.

Also,like most affiliates have said here as well,that all the facts have to be 100% correct before moving and making any major slip-ups and shaming someone for no reason.

If the AU ever gets off the drawing board and into some kind of working body, then they should be the ones to report to and if they find that the details are correct. Then they should be a non-public section for members to be able to see or the offenders are and also their misdoings etc.

Even for a section in GPWA for affiliates caught spamming or scamming for all the other affiliates to veiw and to take their own steps in which to stay away from them.

A wonderful October to all

Keith