UK Casino Club / Casino Rewards denies a 10K payout - RESOLVED

[AK]

That my friends, pretty much makes all the rest .. an after the fact. By players own admission.

Yes it should be discussed and hopefully fixed to avoid the next time, but the player is due nothing in this particular case, as by his own admission.

This is an adult entertainment, and we are responsible as adults to watch out just for situations which hide terms, so it is a cop out to expect anything more than what happens when you ...

these are players words, not mine, and pretty much put to rest the matter of whether the casino actually owes the player anything.

do I like it? no. but truth is that in any other situation the responsibility falls to the adult who is making the decision to press the button that starts the process.

and you don't do that until you're absolute sure it is safe and the player clearly admits he did not do that in the case.

one thing is certain, its not the money. 10k to CR is ...... like 10k is to Mike Jordan. the guy known to lose 100k on a saturday afternoon golf game. Right or wrong, this is a matter of principal to CR. And I respect them for that.

.....................


to address this

be fair to me Caruso. I have that set up so its very simple, and I make it very clear on my websites, so yes, there is SOME responsibility on the player's part to remember where they joined the casino.

That sir, is what makes me worth the money I make, is that I am someone who would do others right, and this is my best way of my ability to show I stand behind my words.

So yes, it does fall on the player to remember my site(s). I do demand that much of them in order to have what I hope is something better and more to them than if they had NOT chosen my site ... and that is what makes it a good choice from where to choose their next gambling haunt.

I don't think you give the player near enough credit Caruso. That is a surprise and a half. You of all people. I bet your traffic remembers your site.


* not too mention I must be the worst designer ever, so I know when I get return traffic its not for how pretty my site is, its because people know i will be available, just like I am now, and will stand behind my word.

100% Disagree!

Are You one of them people that read "Every fine note" in a 25 page document? Nothing personal if You are however lets face it they are dime to dozens. This is supposed to be online entertainment, not signing a mortgage loan. I guess some might call it fair to only pay the man half his money. I'm sure he thinks behind is head he just got robbed of the other half but thankful he got something.

If a casino wants to offer some crazy 300% bonus with near impossible rollover requirements and confusing terms and conditions then they should offer that to the "skilled veteran" casino players. Not granny at home playing an online casino cause she missed her bus pickup for her local VFW bingo meeting. Call me for what You want, I think the industry went the wrong way on bonuses years ago.

[GamTrak]

As long as the player is happy then I'm happy! Good job Renee & Casino Rewards!

[Anthony]

I am glad the player is happy with the settlement.

It is a good thing Casino Rewards changed the verbiage on the bonus page.

Pleasantly surprised KGC offered an reasonable settlement.

There were lessons learned.

[joeyl]

Renee never put those links there. I've seen her post links and, she puts them in the relevant post, where they can be seen, not in a thread elsewhere on the forum. It's not her doing - and she was up for cutting a deal with the player, irregular play accusations withstanding.

Now Casinorewards: that's a whole new ballgame. Most certainly not a good job done here.

Let's see if they align thier mo, rules, website usability, fair treatment of the player etc, with the likes of 32red, not cake&eatitcasino..

[nitro]

The terms are there to read on the website, and there is also a link to them before you create the account where you have to tick the box to say you've read them, giving you another opportunity to read them before you proceed..

If there was a pop up window there would be someone else complaining that the T&Cs should be somewhere else. There is always an excuse for not reading them.

I think it's time that adults took responsibility for themselves. These people are playing at an online casino and they are not children.

I am still happy to look into the player's account, but as I mentioned, if they have broken the T&Cs, which as I have pointed out are there and clear, then the T&C will remain enforced.

I'd like to add that I did contact Hans a few days ago (before he made his last post) to see if I could help him negotiate something better with management, but he declined.

A very positive resolution for the industry in my view. And one that I think will prove to enhance the respect of players for the Kanawake Gaming Commission. And respect for the regulators is something that is very important for our long term success.

I think it's a good ruling, because common sense has been applied.

Not common sense but politics.

[pgaming]

I'd like to add that I did contact Hans a few days ago (before he made his last post) to see if I could help him negotiate something better with management, but he declined.

All said please remember Hans is satisfied and declined “something better.” A player myself I would have jumped all over this offer. Hans did not why is anyone’s guess.

greek39

[thepokerkeep]

I think it's great Hans received a fair settlement. Hats off to KGC for a job well done!

However, the outcome may not be as player friendly next time this happens. And unless CR changes their ways it will happen again.

If CR could take the time to write this on the bottom of the bonus page...

13. In addition to the above, by taking part in any promotion or activity with our casino, you agree inherently to abide by the full casino terms and conditions.

Why couldn't they just add this instead....?

13. The Casino reserves the right to withhold any withdrawals and/or confiscate all winnings for irregular play. 'Irregular play' includes but is not limited to any one or more of the following types of play:

1. Placing single bets equal to or in excess of 25% or more of the value of the bonus credited to the account prior to the play-through requirement for that bonus having been met;
2. Using the double-up feature to increase bet values;
3. Even money bets on Sic Bo, Craps and Roulette

There is still a lack of transparency here that will undoubtedly cause grief for other players in the future.

[joeyl]

Not common sense but politics.

Very possibly old boy. That's why the drum is still being heard - it's not allelujah time yet. You seem to have less trouble putting stuff where it'll be seen Nitroman, than this firm.

If you worked at CR, they'd not have these troubles..

Of course, you're right, the bonus model is a nonsense. The thing is, deep pocket MacDougall can give bonuses as loss leaders and pay the price.

The rest can't, so can't compete, and start gambling themselves.

When the house is gambling alongside the player, you need the mentality of a trusted rails bookmaker, see Ed Ware.

[FictionNet]

5k is better than nothing. The full 10k would have been more appropriate.

Steve, you know I love ya to bits - but you're wrong on this one

[Betpartners]

And theres me thinking that affiliates make money off players that lose.

Glad i am not Hans Affiliate thats for sure.

[nitro]

There is still a lack of transparency here that will undoubtedly cause grief for other players in the future.

Fully agree on that because the current bonus model is counterproductive crap. Here is a plan how to make a good redepositing gambler:

First we start with the signup bonus:

People are attracted into gambling not because their aim is to lose money but because of the illusion that it is possible to win a lot of cash pretty quickly. Under the current model the SUBs are mainly designed to keep the deposits and therefore this illusion gets trashed from the very beginning. The majority of people new to gambling who had the disfortune to lose their deposit via the so called "bonus" as their first experience (and probably get a lot of hassle in the chat because of some misunderstood terms) will actually be not very eager to continue to play and just leave. Therefore the essential thing here is to deliver what is promised which is that gambling is about getting rich without any effort overnight and create a first positive experience by shifting the odds to win heavily towards the gambler.

This is done by a cash handout and is called an investment.

When designing a SUB it is useful to have the bigger picture in mind and considering that even if a promise (the advertisement) like 400% bonus up to $5000 may draw some gamblers it never can be kept and the result will be as said a gambler that is p*ssed on because he will in the vast majority of cases will not see the money that is promised but just loses his deposit and politicians who are watching this from a distance and believe that the gambling industry gives away money like crazy to turn a lot of people into gambling addicts. This is one of the many reasons that make goverment crackdowns possible (acceptable to the general public) then.

So let say the number that is given to the gambler should be more like up to 200€ or so. Depending on the finance power of a casino it could be a 100%, 200%, 300%...whatever bonus but it is essential that the gambler is willing to risk some of his money because giving out no deposit bonuses causes that the vast, vast majority of people who takes them just grabs the money and run and creates the attitude amongst the gamblers that the bonus money should be "free".

The wagering requierment is needed to make sure that the gambler plays a little and tries out the games and especially that he cashes out before he as able to lose any money because most people will withdraw when they finished the WR and therefore should be never be more than 1-10 * of the bonus money amount given. It goes without saying that it should be cashable, all games allowed and weighted equally, no max. cash outs etc. with no T&Cs at all if possible because this is what a person that never touched gambling before understands as a bonus.

The problem in this arrangement is that together with the bonus the bonus hunter/gnome is created and given conditions like that it of course couldn't be kept because an army of gnomes and bonus w*ores would be trashing the concept day and night.

Therefore it is ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL that a shared database is created where every online casino on earth has access to quickly exchange any sort of useful information because this would kill off gnoming (it can be more than useful for a number of other reasons too like spotting problem gamblers by reporting the losses, exchanging ID information - it's enough when a gambler gets identified one time and not 400 times in every single casino - , real time statistics reporting games results targeted towards general public to reassure games fairness etc. not just this one). The more mature indutries like banks, insurance companies etc. have all such a thing in place because they couldn't do without and this is the case here too...

Every gambler who takes a bonus then is registered in this database and if he took more then let say 4-5 in a short space of time it is obvious that you deal with a bonus hunter and gets flagged and bonus banned everywhere. The reason for this little inefficiancy of a couple of SUBs that still can go to the bonus hunters is that a person that is new to gambling is likely to try out a couple of casinos and this should be done as hassle free as possible because it will pay off later on.

Since only a couple of SUBs could be made on an account it would be impossible for the gnomes and "professionals" to make any serious money on the SUBs and knock them out. The concept could be kept stable this way because only the intended target audience - gamblers from the general public - would be reached this way and pay for it later on. With the help of the database it should be possible to quickly catagorize who is who and deal with the problem of the SUB bonus hunters once and for all.

It may be effective for psychological reasons that a gambler is able to claim this kind of bonus with with his next 1-2 deposits because this would harden the illusion of easy, free money and in the vast majority of cases it will be paid back anyway...

(the rest will follow today or tomorrow)

[Caruso]

And theres me thinking that affiliates make money off players that lose.

Glad i am not Hans Affiliate thats for sure.

If players who win don't get paid, you'll have less players. Then you'll make less money.

That affiliates should turn a blind eye to players getting screwed because it might affect their short-term profits would be a very flawed argument. It would also put the industry in a very light.

Very.

Anyway: it's the KGC that emerges from this with the credit. I'd hoped CR would settle without their involvement, in full. But I also backed the half settlement, and am happy with it.

1. The Casino must, on or before 8:00 p.m ET on February 18, 2010, deposit 50% of the disputed amount – i.e. 5,000 Euro – into Mr. Neimz account and permit him to withdraw this amount, and
2. The Casino must immediately amend its Terms and Conditions - Multiple Bonus Promotion to clearly indicate that they incorporate the provisions of the T&C.

The first is a given.

The second is a little unclear. At some point CR did add a link to the general terms in the "Multiple Bonus Promotion" page. Does this, the additional point 13, satisfy the KGC?

13. In addition to the above, by taking part in any promotion or activity with our casino, you agree inherently to abide by the full casino terms and conditions.

"Full casino terms and conditions" is a link to said page.

Is the plan to leave that, or change it to include the term itself? -

The Casino reserves the right to withhold any withdrawals and/or confiscate all winnings for irregular play. 'Irregular play' includes but is not limited to any one or more of the following types of play:

1. Placing single bets equal to or in excess of 25% or more of the value of the bonus credited to the account prior to the play-through requirement for that bonus having been met (etc)

Does the KGC expect this to be added to promo page? I wouldn't mind some clarification on this.


The following point by the KGC is something on which I'd like to comment and wax a bit lyrical:

Given that Mr. Niemz previously chose to make his dispute with the Casino a public matter, we do not consider the terms of this decision to be confidential.

On a sidenote and slight technicality: Mr. Niemz didn't choose to make it public; Mr. Caruso did.

However, I wholly support them making it public, as I wholly support myself in making it public. There is nothing to be lost and everything to be gained from a public airing, as long as it's not unfair. The "if you say anything in public we won't help" spiel demonstrates nothing but a desire to keep things under the table and out of the public eye until such a time as it's too late and the player is toasted.

Put it in the public domain and let involved, interested people for whom the matter is potentially relevant talk about it. Nothing is lost, and noone's reuptation is damaged unless the reputation deserves to be damaged. Back door deals, dummy corporations, beneficial interests (Cardspike?), nod and a wink at the corner table...all that murky dirty dealing isn't the way. Put it on the table and let people see.

This was a textbook job as far as I'm concerned. And everyone's happy - so I challenge anyone to dispute the ideology.

That is essentially why I supported the APCW Microgaming video - almost the only one. Yeah, it may not have been exactly the right face to stick the camera in, but it wasn't too far off. And it was honest, open and told us stuff, though you may not all have liked what you heard. This is the way things get done; stuff your greasy handshakes behind closed doors.

So I encourage Kahnawake to maintain a flexible attitude on this subject and allow for continued openness. It'll only be for everyone's benefit in the end.

[bb1web]

Steve, you know I love ya to bits - but you're wrong on this one

fair enough. I'll take this opportunity to apologize to anyone I've offended.

Frankly I should have just stayed away from all this as I returned too soon and my mind is so clouded with grief right now that I'm probably only picking up about half what i am reading. (ref to a recent family situation which resulted in death which was very untimely).


Hans, I think most anybody that knows me will tell you that I always want what's fair for the player. And in this case, even though I felt you were lost due to admission of not reading T&Cs, I truthfully did try to get Renee to pay you based on the PR angle, if nothing else.

I still do believe that CR made its choices based on principal, heck they pay out prob a quarter of a million every month and that's just to affs that I know (as is my rough figured estimate). So 10k is nothing to them. In April, of '08 they paid a Finish player 5.5 million.

...............


my final letter to Renee I suggested that there is simply no reason to not have all the T&Cs on one page, cram them on there if necessary. As someone mentioned, its not like they're running out of paper space.

My understanding is that will not be the chosen path they will take, which I feel is a shame.

I'll continue to promote CR, and with complete confidence. However I will make a point to readers about this incident having happened, and as such that they should contact support and have them confirm all the T&Cs have been read (ie found).


..........


I appreciate the community allowing me to be wrong without feeling like I've been disowned. Thank you for that.

[casinobonusguy]

Steve,
Very sorry to hear about your personal situation .Personally I would love to see casinos send gifts instead of comps.A nice gift basket goes alot longer than $100 in free chips There would be alot less player complaints who get caught in the bonus terms .

[nitro]

then it's time to take care about the reloads:

If you take a look at any B&M establishment you'll find out that people are actually playing there and the casinos run mostly profitable and it is somehow possible without the bonus concept.

The current bonus scheme setup has a serious design flaw because there are like 500 or so casinos on earth and every single one of them offers a signup bonus to entice customers. This way online gambling become bonus fixated because a gambler will always find a new casino (or an old one with a lot of reloads) that will offer him a bonus and will somehow find the notion strange to deposit without a bonus attached to it. This can never ever be profitable in the long run and due to a number of reasons the bonuses have been turned to crap anyway and are mainly used to keep the deposits. Considering the gambler's mindset above the end result is that the current scheme is just causing a lot of hassle and is going nowhere.

Given the arrangement described in my posting above your run of the mill gambler will probably try out a couple of casinos and nearly always make a positive experience because the odd are heavily shifted in his favour because of the SUB. It is better to repeat this kind of experience a couple of times and not go for a rule like one gambler - one sub in a given amount of time because this will cementate the illusion that gambling is all about free easy money. I suspect the majority of people will try to take one bonus after another and therefore the game should be over after a couple of bonuses taken for a while with a discreet hint that you've already claimed X and that should be enough.

Now we have someone that was always willing to risk his OWN MONEY and made a positive experience nearly every time doing that therefore it is very likely that a deposit will follow without any bonus attached to it.

In case the gambler wins again and makes a withdrawal it is more than likely that the next deposit will follow so if a gambler is on a winning streak there is no need for any bonuses at all to attract deposits.

Now let's assume the next deposit is 200€ and the gambler loses it all to the casino. It's clear that the gambler is now pissed on because of the loss and maybe starts to think that it should be better to quit gambling.

But a promotion like that appears now in the cashier 50-100€, all games allowed, next to no T&Cs etc. and the most important point: NO WAGERING REQUIERMENT attached to it. The reason for that is that if you set a WR the gambler has a definite target when to withdraw but if you don't give him any he'll usually just play on until everything is lost. The only drawback is that a next deposit has to follow that has the same amount like the promotion. Despite being on a losing streak when given a promotion like that it's hard to say no so it's very likely that the next deposit will follow.

What's interesting here is that this kind of promotion is not financed by the casino but by the losses that have been previously made by the gambler.

Here is a little excurse how gambling works:

"True enough BorisR, "The idea of a casino is to make money." However, if you loosen up the slots, all that really happens is that folks end-up playing longer, in fact most will put all the money back into the slots. The same thing holds true for a lot of the games in Las Vegas. Looser odds and looser slots = more playing time, happy customers and bigger profits NOT casino's losing money. That's what the computer programs fail to factor in. I could increase any casino's take by 10% if they would listen, BUT first you have to have a bunch of degrees before they will listen to you. I know a few old cardroom manangers/owners in California with 9th grade educations and their casino's are booming. Why? Beacuse they know it's a people business not a computer-program-bean counting business."

"People like to actually win something when they play the slots, and not have to wait 2 hours sitting at a machine to do so. If a machine doesn't have a trend of "hitting" after about 10-15 spins I'm looking for another bank of machines, but if all the machines are tight, what's the point??? That's just a waste of time and money, which is why I'm going to go less and less to the tribal casinos and focus on locals casinos in Vegas 2-4 times a year"

"I say - bring back the OLD SCHOOL -
Let players PLAY! Take their money - sure - But let them have 40 hours of insane fun before you TAKE IT ALL...
Then - Give them a STEAK mean - fill their belly for the long ride home.
Go back to the BENNY BINNION basics..
They will come back!"


So the idea behind the concept is give some of the losses back that the gambler has made as a bonus to attract the next deposit and effectively increase the play time because the vast majority of "real" gamblers will keep on playing until they gamble it away anyway.


So the best use of bonuses is probably to use them only when a gambler is on a losing streak to make sure that despite bad luck the gambler doesn't quit but keeps on depositing.


The crucial difference to everything(monthlies, reloads, cashbacks...) that is now on the scene is that this kind of bonus is not one size for all but awarded individually and as said it is only given when previously losses have been made so effectively "financed" by the gambler themselves.


The concept could be applied not only for the casinos but also for any other form of gambling because it's based around the psychology of a gambler.


Should it ever become implemented there is of course no need to go full force into it but slowly work out which kind of "bonus patterns" might work best.



This has some interesting implications for the advantage play community:


Despite based on losses it is probably possible to advantage play it in one form or another, but:


- The advantage player has no clue at all if he will get anyting because it's based on individual playing pattern and is left completely out in the dark.


- The techniques that are on the websites stop to work and under this concept it's more like finding out how a casino behaves.

- To do this you would have to constantly lose your own money so it's not a very attractive proposition for the vast majority of people.

- And finally: given the database suggested in my first posting if someone is flagged by 3-4 casinos as advantage player he could be bonus banned throughout the industry and the case is done.

So i believe this would be the end of the advantage play/gnome community.

Should i missed something in the entire concept here please let me know.

Thank you for reading.

[Caruso]

Any chance of somebody shifting the above off-topic waffle to a more appropriate location?

Done a write up:

http://www.hundredpercentgambling.co...unexpected.htm

Noted at the end that the 25% rule is still not on the bonus page. What they've done is to embolden the general T & C link, which was temporarily "term 13", and as such a slight cosmetic redo of change that was implemented while we were discussing the matter.

I don't know why they can't just put the bloody 25% term on that bonus page??

Anyway, Hans's €5000 will buy him a good three-week stay at the Hotel De Paris, next door to the casino, when he's next in Monaco. So I think he'll be happy.

[pgaming]

I agree seeing the CR//Hans issue is resolved. I see another very interesting topic being discussed worthy of a good debate.

greek39

[joeyl]

Should i missed something in the entire concept here please let me know.

Thank you for reading.

2 X 1200 word posts I read Nitro.

You should thank me for reading.

Anyway, you're right in essence. Won't happen though.

There are ways to eradicate gnomes, but they cost money.

It's cheaper to do it the way they do, regardless how many gamblers actually win, cashout, and don't get paid due to some nonsense rule they don't get, or ever saw before.

[Ixian]

Renee I have no qualms about you as a person. I enjoy reading your posts, and still want to see a pic of you in a bikini.

However, I feel that your managements decision not to list the "controversial term" upfront with the other bonus terms extremely disgraceful.

I understand that you are towing the company line and feel very sorry for you, but your group is seriously doing themselves long term credibility damage by allowing the absence of this term from the bonus terms & conditions page.

Just my two cents, nothing personal.

[nitro]

Anyway, you're right in essence. Won't happen though.

The sad fact is that neither vegas nor the online gambling industry understands gambling. It's about profit increase with killing off the advantage players & gnomes as a side effect.