Vegas Affiliates, Grand Prive, & Affiliate Lounge: APCW Perspectives Weekly

[Betpartners]

Torn as how to comment on the video as a whole because to be frank was disapointed but i do have one question J Todd.

You said that you asked Ecogra to get involved a year ago etc and yet today you attack them, linked them with Microgaming and so forth.

The question is what has changed in the last year in relation to Ecogra that they are no longer deemed good enough to do the investigation today.

Were they not connected with Microgaming a year ago?, surely if that connection back then was not seen as a hurdle why is it today.

Personally i dont think Ecogra should be the ones to carry out an independant review of what happened, for me their credibility is shot but then i never asked for them to investigate Grand Prive a year ago anyway.

Sometimes attacking various programs just does not serve the purpose and bridges get burnt.

Without those bridges one cannot meet the other side to resolve issues.

[Integrity]

You said that you asked Ecogra to get involved a year ago etc and yet today you attack them, linked them with Microgaming and so forth... The question is what has changed in the last year in relation to Ecogra that they are no longer deemed good enough to do the investigation today.

Yes... they were attached to Microgaming a year ago...


A year ago that attachment was the very reason we asked eCogra to get involved. Grand Prive (a Microgaming licensee) decided to commit an act of theft and then label it an acceptable change to their contract. They then went silent and/or unresponsive. Game over, eh? Not quite: It made perfect sense at that point to go over their heads to their software provider, and to the company (eCogra) who put a "safe and fair" seal on their sites.

A year ago the connection was seen as an opportunity for resolution and not a hurdle. However, as time passed it became more and more obvious that neither Microgaming nor eCogra was going to do anything to help us. In fact, Mr Beverage of eCogra made a detailed response to why eCogra would not get involved with the Grand Prive situation at Casinomeister. Interestingly, in that post, he stated that the responsibility with Grand Prive fell on the side of Microgaming.

A year ago, Microgaming had already screwed up with Tusk Gaming, but everyone had overlooked that when Rewards Affiliates rode to their rescue. Then Grand Prive happened, and Microgaming did squat... just like with Tusk... just like what they would eventually do with Eurolynx. In fact, did you know that the Malta Gaming Authority has been the only proactive organization in regard to Eurolynx? They recently turned the issue over to the police there for possible criminal charges. Microgaming still does nothing, although they are consistently receiving royalties from the players that webmasters brought to Grand Prive.

A year ago we followed proper channels in this whole Grand Prive cluster f**k. We didn't just come out and start name calling and throwing accusations. We tried to talk with Grand Prive: STRIKE ONE! We tried to get eCogra involved: STRIKE TWO! We tried to get Microgaming to help us: SWING! MISS! YER OUT! Only after we tried to be professional and all avenues were exhausted did we resort to the stronger tactics like you see now. An you know what? It's a DAMN good thing we did! Otherwise, I guarantee that Grand Prive/eCogra would not be making any sort of token offer right now.

And don't be fooled! The piss-ant amount of cash affiliates will get back will be minuscule compared to what Grand Prive has stolen over the past year. The only reason they are making this move right now is to have some sort of ammunition to come back with when we drag their name and all their brands through the crapper. They want to say they took responsibility for the unpaid affiliates and keep somewhat of a straight face. It's ridiculous.

...to be frank ( I ) was disappointed ...

Yea... ya know what? Me too!


I am very disappointed that there are some "independent auditing" companies who won't help anyone unless they are properly motivated.

I am very disappointed that there are some software providers who consider us too far beneath them to even dirty their hands with our problems, yet our money is still good enough to accept.

I am very disappointed that there are some affiliate programs and operators out there who will steal what rightfully belongs to affiliates and then pay them a "settlement" out of the stolen loot.

I am very disappointed that the APCW still has to defend it's actions made in defense of what's right, fair, and just.



How quickly we forget the past...

But I'll be damned if we're gonna repeat it!

[GamTrak]

How quickly we forget the past...

But I'll be damned if we're gonna repeat it!

Very well said JTodd!

Especially the quote above. This week I've witnessed a few WFT moments while surfing the forums, but just sat on my fingers and read thru it! Keep up the good work! YOU are making a difference.

[Simmo!]

On the AP/UB question you pose. My take is that if the people that instigated and profited from the scandal are still involved, then they should not be given a second chance. Determining that, as someone said is tricky. I don't "do" poker, but if I did I would want written proof those people were no longer involved before I promoted them or played there again. If however they were gone, then a second chance is in order IMO.

On the eCOGRA / GP debate, I make no secret of the fact that I have time for eCOGRA but let me put this one out there. Grand Prive won't cooperate with GPWA/ACPW because of the treatment dished out (wrongly or rightly, their opinion being it was unwarranted and too personal). It's obvious from discussions that many affiliates don't trust CAP to want them involved. GAU are new and probably have no experience of litiginous affairs or independent auditing procedures and, no offence to anyone, they are an "unknown quantity" to affiliates at this stage. If they tried and fell short of expectations it would be a disastrous start for them and affiliates in general as a "force". Andy at AGD is well respected but would probably be the first to admit that he would need help in the independent auditing area. Thus, both GAU and AGD would probably have to get (possibly expensive) external firms involved to conduct proper, effective auditing procedures. The consequences of not getting professionals involved is to everyone's detriment.

The best marriage IMO is eCOGRA - who have knowledge of the industry, experience in this type of situation plus the necessary legal, compliance and auditing backup, not to mention financial support - and Andy who has the respect and trust of affiliates and an excellent knowledge of our side of the business who would also be able to help monitor procedures aswell as providing much needed liasion and affiliate viewpoints.

[Chalkie]

On the AP/UB question you pose. My take is that if the people that instigated and profited from the scandal are still involved, then they should not be given a second chance. Determining that, as someone said is tricky. I don't "do" poker, but if I did I would want written proof those people were no longer involved before I promoted them or played there again. If however they were gone, then a second chance is in order IMO.

On the eCOGRA / GP debate, I make no secret of the fact that I have time for eCOGRA but let me put this one out there. Grand Prive won't cooperate with GPWA/ACPW because of the treatment dished out (wrongly or rightly, their opinion being it was unwarranted and too personal). It's obvious from discussions that many affiliates don't trust CAP to want them involved. GAU are new and probably have no experience of litiginous affairs or independent auditing procedures and, no offence to anyone, they are an "unknown quantity" to affiliates at this stage. If they tried and fell short of expectations it would be a disastrous start for them and affiliates in general as a "force". Andy at AGD is well respected but would probably be the first to admit that he would need help in the independent auditing area. Thus, both GAU and AGD would probably have to get (possibly expensive) external firms involved to conduct proper, effective auditing procedures. The consequences of not getting professionals involved is to everyone's detriment.

The best marriage IMO is eCOGRA - who have knowledge of the industry, experience in this type of situation plus the necessary legal, compliance and auditing backup, not to mention financial support - and Andy who has the respect and trust of affiliates and an excellent knowledge of our side of the business who would also be able to help monitor procedures aswell as providing much needed liasion and affiliate viewpoints.

Whilst i agree with most of what you have said and certainly agree that the GAU could not offer the experience required to conduct or maybe even oversee an audit, i do feel that 1, the other, or even both need to involve a third party for their own sakes.

Why? Because surely, unless the result of this enquiry/investigation does not 100% appease each and every upset affiliate then it will result in very little change to the environment as we see it currently.

[GamTrak]

Simmo makes very valid and excellent points. At this time we are 'at the mercy' of eCOGRA and I'm ok with them doing the 'job' as long as they DO THE JOB and not BS us!

From my point of view they have failed out the gate on a couple fronts (that can be fixed), but if they want to 'survive/maintain' the current respect that they have accumulated to-date then they need to re-evaluate the current process in order for it to be fair.

How contacting affiliates can even be an issue is mind-boggling to me. Get the darn database and email everyone like was done when you closed shop! DUH!

If they get the initial 'errors' corrected then I'm cool with it and will give them a chance to 'investigate'.

[Simmo!]

Whilst i agree with most of what you have said and certainly agree that the GAU could not offer the experience required to conduct or maybe even oversee an audit, i do feel that 1, the other, or even both need to involve a third party for their own sakes.

Why? Because surely, unless the result of this enquiry/investigation does not 100% appease each and every upset affiliate then it will result in very little change to the environment as we see it currently.

Agreed Chalkie. I am sceptical as to whether this investigation can acheive 100% appeasememnt, no matter who undertakes it to be honest. Some of the organisations above will always have their critics no matter what they do, others don't have the infrastructure to undertake the task. The closest we'll get to it is via a joint effort involving two parties who can bridge the divide, get the job done and work together effectively.

[Integrity]

Grand Prive won't cooperate with GPWA/ACPW because of the treatment dished out (wrongly or rightly, their opinion being it was unwarranted and too personal).

Grand Prive had no intentions to ever work with either the APCW or the GPWA from day one, sir. Please, don't even think for one moment that they would have cooperated with us. They didn't respect affiliates enough to honor their agreements. Why the hell would they respect an affiliate organization? And that includes CAP! Remember the big "London Meeting" between CAP and Grand Prive? How Lou & Warren were going to straighten this all out? It was horse hockey then... it's horse hockey now.

The best marriage IMO is eCOGRA - who have knowledge of the industry, experience in this type of situation plus the necessary legal, compliance and auditing backup, not to mention financial support...

eCogra is a puppet of Microgaming. Period. If you trust them to get all of your hard earned affiliate income returned to you then I suspect you will get back exactly what you deserve: Bupkis. What I find so amuzing is that everyone seems to forget the treatment of Grand Prive toward the affiliates. Instead, these days we keep hearing about the treatment the APCW toward to Grand Prive? It's ludacris, but so be it.

For anyone who thinks we handled this incorrectly... Thinks we're too aggressive... Thinks they have a better to solve this issue... I encourage you to step up and take the reigns and show us whatcha got. Maybe it's time the APCW shuts up. Maybe it's time I just do the straight news. Maybe it's time I don't say another word about Grand Prive, Microgaming, or eCogra and let the chips fall where they may.

After all, I lost no income in all of this. I am a salaried employee and really have no horse in the race. In fact, my stress level would go way, way down if I wasn't always fighting on affiliates behalf, taking the heat from the operators and programs for doing so, then having to defend my actions to the very people I am fighting to protect.

What a life.


.

[Simmo!]

eCogra is a puppet of Microgaming. Period. If you trust them to get all of your hard earned affiliate income returned to you then I suspect you will get back exactly what you deserve: Bupkis.

I'm an optimist

What I find so amuzing is that everyone seems to forget the treatment of Grand Prive toward the affiliates. Instead, these days we keep hearing about the treatment the APCW toward to Grand Prive? It's ludacris, but so be it.

For anyone who thinks we handled this incorrectly... Thinks we're too aggressive... Thinks they have a better to solve this issue... I encourage you to step up and take the reigns and show us whatcha got.

I think maybe you didn't take my post objectively JT. I was showing the methodology behind my conclusion. Ruling APCW out as a viable path. Whether its your fault there is no cahannel of communication, their fault or an Act of God isn't either relevant or even of interest, just the simple fact that, as you agree, isn't an avenue open to us to resolve the situation. It wasn't an attack, a derogatory comment or even a mild dig. Just the gentle click of a door shutting.

Maybe it's time the APCW shuts up. Maybe it's time I just do the straight news. Maybe it's time I don't say another word about Grand Prive, Microgaming, or eCogra and let the chips fall where they may.

Actually, joking aside and while you hopefully know that I think you do a great job, maybe objective reports might serve our best interests while the processes that be are ongoing? After all, there will be plenty of opportunities to weigh in after the event and I'll even let you off a "told you so" if you really want

Seriously...no offence meant. Just trying to be objective. I think the resources of eCOGRA and the trust and respect Andy has represent our best option. That's not a slur on you, just seems like logic to me.

[Betpartners]

Yes... they were attached to Microgaming a year ago...


A year ago that attachment was the very reason we asked eCogra to get involved. Grand Prive (a Microgaming licensee) decided to commit an act of theft and then label it an acceptable change to their contract. They then went silent and/or unresponsive. Game over, eh? Not quite: It made perfect sense at that point to go over their heads to their software provider, and to the company (eCogra) who put a "safe and fair" seal on their sites.

A year ago the connection was seen as an opportunity for resolution and not a hurdle. However, as time passed it became more and more obvious that neither Microgaming nor eCogra was going to do anything to help us. In fact, Mr Beverage of eCogra made a detailed response to why eCogra would not get involved with the Grand Prive situation at Casinomeister. Interestingly, in that post, he stated that the responsibility with Grand Prive fell on the side of Microgaming.

A year ago, Microgaming had already screwed up with Tusk Gaming, but everyone had overlooked that when Rewards Affiliates rode to their rescue. Then Grand Prive happened, and Microgaming did squat... just like with Tusk... just like what they would eventually do with Eurolynx. In fact, did you know that the Malta Gaming Authority has been the only proactive organization in regard to Eurolynx? They recently turned the issue over to the police there for possible criminal charges. Microgaming still does nothing, although they are consistently receiving royalties from the players that webmasters brought to Grand Prive.

A year ago we followed proper channels in this whole Grand Prive cluster f**k. We didn't just come out and start name calling and throwing accusations. We tried to talk with Grand Prive: STRIKE ONE! We tried to get eCogra involved: STRIKE TWO! We tried to get Microgaming to help us: SWING! MISS! YER OUT! Only after we tried to be professional and all avenues were exhausted did we resort to the stronger tactics like you see now. An you know what? It's a DAMN good thing we did! Otherwise, I guarantee that Grand Prive/eCogra would not be making any sort of token offer right now.

And don't be fooled! The piss-ant amount of cash affiliates will get back will be minuscule compared to what Grand Prive has stolen over the past year. The only reason they are making this move right now is to have some sort of ammunition to come back with when we drag their name and all their brands through the crapper. They want to say they took responsibility for the unpaid affiliates and keep somewhat of a straight face. It's ridiculous.





Yea... ya know what? Me too!


I am very disappointed that there are some "independent auditing" companies who won't help anyone unless they are properly motivated.

I am very disappointed that there are some software providers who consider us too far beneath them to even dirty their hands with our problems, yet our money is still good enough to accept.

I am very disappointed that there are some affiliate programs and operators out there who will steal what rightfully belongs to affiliates and then pay them a "settlement" out of the stolen loot.

I am very disappointed that the APCW still has to defend it's actions made in defense of what's right, fair, and just.



How quickly we forget the past...

But I'll be damned if we're gonna repeat it!

Thanks for the response J Todd

Probably best i keep my opinion to myself on the one issue.

I do hope for anyone effected by this that Ecogra do the right thing

[Chalkie]

Hey guys, if you have not seen it, this was what i had to say for egr:

http://www.egrmagazine.com/news/4243...ve-probe.thtml

and this was what i said on the GAU:

http://gamblingaffiliatesunion.org/l...rand-prive/442

I do hope people see it as constructive!

[Chalkie]

I would also like to add that APCW may have said things in the recent year that Grand Prive or eCOGRA may not like, they may have been rough on them, however, without people shouting the odds then would we be now seeing some movement?

Would Grand Prive be coming anywhere near anyones table had the vocal barrage and mass abuse of grand prive not been made.

APCW have been a leading light in getting this far and deserve much praise for their efforts.

If this disallows them from being involved in the final discussion then that is in no way derogatory and i lift my hat to them!

[thepokerkeep]

Seriously...no offence meant. Just trying to be objective. I think the resources of eCOGRA and the trust and respect Andy has represent our best option. That's not a slur on you, just seems like logic to me.

Whoa!! Did I miss something?
When did Andy get involved?
Last I heard, he was passed over and eCogra was going it alone.

[Simmo!]

I think the resources of eCOGRA and the trust and respect Andy has represent our best option. That's not a slur on you, just seems like logic to me.

Whoa!! Did I miss something?

Yup. I preceded it with the words "I think".

[joeyl]

I think you sending in your "claim" Simmo, has no bearing upon ruling whether Grand Prive were in order or not way back when.

You're being mugged off. You would'nt have it from British Rail.

All there is, is the aff terms you agreed to, your closure of account email, and Andrew saying in an email to Pinababy some waffle about you and your kind Simmo, don't know the score about the GP issue.

Police & politicians policing themselves does'nt work. Niether does Ecogra. If you keep supporting them, alongside folk like CM, they're going to get bolder & bolder.

Shit, they're auditing thier own output for crying out aloud. It can't really get any worse.

It's like being asked by your 10 year old if you can spell gulliball.

[TheCPA]

It's like being asked by your 10 year old if you can spell gulliball.

gullible

Shit, they're auditing thier own output for crying out aloud. It can't really get any worse.

Yep! Kind of like Jessie James auditing Bonnie and Clyde!
Of course the monetary greed under the "False Guise"of being TRUE Affiliate or Player Advocates runs deep thru out all facets of this industry.

This industry is headed in the wrong direction on many levels right now.
All the wrong people are holding all the right cards to make a big buck, unfortunately.
Sad, but there was consideraly more integrity, honesty, and cooperation several years ago than there is now. All very sad, IMO.

[Simmo!]

I think you sending in your "claim" Simmo, has no bearing upon ruling whether Grand Prive were in order or not way back when.

Absolutely. I'm under no illusions about that.

For me the thing is here we have some movement. Whether that comes from eCOGRA, GAU, GPWA, AGD or even CAP certainly has relevance in terms of ability to do the job, but in every case, whoever takes up the mantle is acting on behalf of affiliates and is deserving of their support, mine included.

That support might be delivered in different ways: it might be an offer of assistance, suggestions, mediation, vocal support or just quiet cooperation if required. In this instance my opinion is that suggesting to eCOGRA that they work with AGD might be the best way forward. It would marry up the resources required with the trust that is lacking. I would have thought that would also be a good suggestion for those that don't trust eCOGRA too, but clearly not.

Even if it was CAP doing this, it woudn't be constructive to be shouting them down from the moment it was mentioned IMO. The time for expressing dissatisfaction, to me, is after the event and I'm sure there will be plenty of that because any solution, no matter who runs with it, will not appease everyone. It's simply impossible to keep everyone happy because of the actions of GP and the fact we can't check stats to confirm what is agreed is correct. Consequently, all the people who disagree with eCOGRA doing this will have their day, so IMO for now at least, it would be more helpful to our cause to either get behind them, or at least reserve judgement until we have a resolution.

Without access for individual affiliates to check their stats - and even then there would be no guarantee that they would be presented correctly - it's a no-win situation for eCOGRA, as it would have been for AGD, GAU, CAP or GPWA. But if we add someone that's trusted into the mix to bridge the gap, at least we may get a view as to whether all that could be done was done which, quite frankly, is about all we can expect.

[joeyl]

Well if you word it that way, there's not alot of room to argue, so I won't.

What i'll do is another "rant". An ignorant, unresearched, arm waiving point of view, aimed at attacking an idealisric institution, just because.

Here we go: I remember when Micro bought trust by covering the Tropika debacle and the Goodfellas closure. They needed do no more.

Since then, Ecogra, the disappearance of millons of dollars of players, and now affiliates money, via the vehicle of safe, sealed, audited firms.

sidenote: how gullible is the CPA? -;