Very dissatisfied with Bet365 policy & service

[Muppet]

Towards the end of July, our accountant found that we had some funds sitting in our Bet365 affiliate account that had been there for some time. It wasn't a lot - a bit over $1000 or so. Noticing it was end of month I decided to wait until August ticked over before requesting the withdrawal so that we could receive August's earnings and the previous in one go. Big mistake.

On the last day in July our account went into the negative for July. No big deal I thought, I'll just go withdraw the funds that are in there from the previous months. Except I can't. Yes I know they have negative carryover but it seems to Bet365 this means negative carry-backwards-and-forwards or something because their system has subtracted the negative earnings in July from all the previously earned income sitting in the account, putting the entire thing into a negative and making it impossible to withdraw.

I sent a polite email asking if they could correct that and all I got was a patronising canned cut & paste response explaining how an account can go into negative (i.e. player wins or there is fraud). Whoever emailed me didn't bother telling me which of those things occurred on our account. So I emailed them back asking for clarification and waited.... and waited...

5 days later and we get a response that a player won. No attempt to apologise, explain the policy, or adjust our account to return the money that we had previously earned. Just a "one player won" one liner.

I can only assume that this is not an error in their system but is in fact their policy.

Let that be a warning to you if you are working with these guys ... withdraw as quickly as possible otherwise they will reclaim your earnings if you go into a negative in the next month.

[theGman]

Wow that is one for the books , and ive just gone and posted in another thread how great they are. I am sure that one of them will be along to sort this out for you. I did not realise that Bet365 carried over negatives

[Muppet]

No doubt someone will tell me that it is all the same in the end - i.e. if they pay the previous income then I'll be in a bigger negative hole now. But frankly the cash is better sitting in our account than theirs and I think I am well entitled to it.

[cass]

Am rather surprised to hear that they've blown you off in the manner you've explained, since Bet365 is supposed to be a top-notch affiliate program. One would expect them to treat their affiliates/partners with respect and give a detailed explanation as to why your funds were deducted.

Internet casinos

[jarvi]

I think you'll find most programs operate the same way when it's not an automatic payment type arrangement and you have to request a payment. That said, the response from Bet365 is surprising because they are usually very good in that area.

[Muppet]

And therein lies the problem. Most affiliate programs don't require you to request a payment, and most don't have negative carryover. I am struggling to think of one other that do both of those things.

The whole reason this has occurred is because we hadn't realised that we needed to request a payment and of course had not imagined that their policy would apply in this way, otherwise we would have been requesting payments at the start of every month. The other problem that this brings up is that when you have small payments that you need to clear each month that they will only pay via wire or cheque the bank fees (+ Bet365 fees if they charge any?) start to become prohibitive.

It seems to me to be a handy loophole that can be used to bolster their cash-flow at the expense of the affiliate from time to time.

I just received another email quoting their terms which to me seem a little ambiguous:

3.2 Payable Commission Calculations

Affiliates are eligible for payment on the balance of their sports, casino, poker, games or bingo earnings. Negative commission balances in either sports, casino, poker, games or bingo will be deducted from available commissions.

"deducted from available commissions" can be interpreted in many ways. At first glance to me it looks like a simple way of saying that they carry over negatives. It could also mean that if you have a negative in sports it will be deducted from casino for example. And then I can also see how they can interpret it to mean "accumulated commissions that you have not yet withdrawn". One thing is for sure, it is poorly worded.

[jarvi]

We regularly ask Bet365 to review the need for invoices and requesting payments. I think it was only last week we had another thread about the invoice. I'm not sure they're looking for loopholes, I just think some accountant within the organisation has a bit too much to say and treats affiliates just like other suppliers of goods and services. I just have it on the list of things to do in the first few days of each month, which is to check the programs so I know what I can expect and do the invoice thing.

You can have payments made to your player account and then withdraw in a variety a ways. Not ideal I know, and I am against having to use player accounts, just letting you know it might be an option for you in the future. Once you have transferred it to your player account then you don't have to withdraw it straight away if the fees for your chosen method are a tad high. It does mean that the future negatives cannot affect your earnings, which is a definite positive.

[TheGooner]

"deducted from available commissions" can be interpreted in many ways. At first glance to me it looks like a simple way of saying that they carry over negatives. It could also mean that if you have a negative in sports it will be deducted from casino for example. And then I can also see how they can interpret it to mean "accumulated commissions that you have not yet withdrawn".

It means all those things. A big loss in casino (for instance) will wipe out sports, poker and bingo, and the remaining loss will sit as a negative balance - or eat into retained earnings if you've left some in there. So Bet365's earnings are all bundled together and everything affects the bottom line.

On the plus side - Bet365 do NOT charge any wire fees (although your receiving bank might if it's and international transfer) - and Bet365 do provide banking EVERY month if you go though the actions of requesting via an invoice.

Several big sports betting programs act in exactly the same way - and it is important to understand each programs rules and restrictions. Although I can understand your disappointment and not getting $1000 that was sitting there previously - financially it does make any difference long term.
(ie. If the situation is you are paid $1000 and have -$2500 going forward - or they apply the loss to the standing balance and you have -$1500 going forward)

In this situation - everything seems to done correctly. I don't really understand the issue?

[Muppet]

Yes there is no difference in net income but there is a difference in cash-flow.

Out bank does charge incoming wire fees, and cheques written in a foreign currency are ridiculously expensive to process.

That aside, the issue is the slow, poor service, and unhelpful emails I received, along with the unclear terms. I could have read that term 100 times and still not gleaned from it that they would subtract negative earnings from previous income. I have asked them to change it to make it more clear. We shall see.

Hopefully someone else can learn from this and not make the same mistake.

[cass]

If they treat top affiliates like yourself in this way, then Bet365 clearly stipulates that they don't need affiliates to advertise their business. In our books this is a program to avoid then.

Internet casinos

[Muppet]

I don't know if I would go that far as to avoid them. I think they have a great site and are among the best Playtech casinos, especially from a player's point of view (and there are plenty of very bad ones). Just be aware and make sure you withdraw every month ASAP!

[justbookies]

I don't know if I would go that far as to avoid them. I think they have a great site and are among the best Playtech casinos, especially from a player's point of view (and there are plenty of very bad ones). Just be aware and make sure you withdraw every month ASAP!

I am surprised at the problem you had with Bet365. As in our previous experience their communication has been excellent and always so helpful. I guess it just depends who answers your email - the accounts department or a helpful affiliate manager. I tend to speak directly to an affiliate manager I know will be helpful rather than leaving anything to chance. I also do understand your issue and I agree that future negatives ought not to reduce past positive monthly commissions. So I think there is an issue here. Otherwise ultimately you might request a commission on the 15th of the next month only to be told 'no' because this current month you already have a massive negative. I mean where would it end and I think the line has to be drawn at the final day of the month and then that positive is ring fenced and cant be reduced by future negatives just because you did not cash out quick enough. I am sure Bet365 could not have envisaged such a scenario when their otherwise excellent systems were set up, though in hindsight it seems obvious. I would be unhappy in Muppet's position too. On a side issue, I would love to see them drop the negative carryover anyway. But what I would say is that in our many years of working with Bet365 they have always been really fair and I think they are a tremendous program, the best really. I think you would have had a better conclusion to this if you had targeted an affiliate manager who could grasp the issue here immediately. I can advise a contact there who has always been excellent in sorting out issues if anyone cares to PM me. I would not want this thread to put any new affiliates off what is a truly great company. I believe Bet365's heart has always been in the right place for its affiliates and its players and I am sure that has not changed one bit.

[James_W]

I think you would have had a better conclusion to this if you had targeted an affiliate manager who could grasp the issue here immediately. My advice is just to make sure you speak to an affiliate manager you know in future. I can advise a contact there who has always been truly excellent in sorting out issues if anyone cares to PM me.

Just to confirm, I can be reached both at the email address below, and the mobile phone number, 7 days a week.

Please contact me directly if you need to, I will either deal with it myself or enlist one of the hardworking affiliate facing personnel in my team to ensure it is picked up asap.

Often the best thing to do is call directly.

Thanks

James

[FictionNet]

If you withdraw funds from your affiliate account to your player account, do we still have to do the invoice thingy? I recently moved and I don't even own a printer right now and I only ever seem to use one a couple of times a year - just for bet365 invoices. Pain. In. The. Arse.

[James_W]

If you withdraw funds from your affiliate account to your player account, do we still have to do the invoice thingy? I recently moved and I don't even own a printer right now and I only ever seem to use one a couple of times a year - just for bet365 invoices. Pain. In. The. Arse.

Rob, hope all is well with you,

Sending you an email on this one in a moment,

Thanks

James

[universal4]

This is one of the reasons I rarely let any monies owed to me sitting in any affiliate account.

Hopefully this will be worked out to your satisfaction and I have faith that James will make you feel comnfortable about the end result.

Rob, if you are in real need for a printer, I could probably send you one.....

....I'm sure I have a few pencils sitting around.....I'll bet I can even convince James to cover the shipping charges.....lol

Rick
Universal4

[Vrindavan]

>> I only ever seem to use one a couple of times a year

the print head of ink jet will no longer work after a while if you rarely use your printer.

[GCG]

I have to say they are not the nicest chaps although they do everything by the book.

With them I have depositors each month for thousands of dollars but at the end the month it is really a few bucks and with their negative carry over policy beating the 12k in the red is not that easy.

I also find it very strange nobody bothers with their brand protection clause (your account will be closed without any notice):

- number 365 in your domain is not allowed if you promote them
- no meta (keyword) tags for bet365 own keywords

http://www.gpwa.org/forum/brand-bidding-203507.html

please reply to that thread instead for the above in order not to derail this one.

I just want to know more if they have a patent on this or not.

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For sportsbook affiliates I have added a warning on my site :

Rogue Casino Programs - Bet365 warning

If you would like to add, have other reviews (I accept intext links if the article is good) or see some content changed just PM me.

[justbookies]

On the contrary, I have found them to be very nice "chaps". The affiliate managers are very helpful in my long experience with them.
On the other point, they will have trademarked their brand name like every other operator. Their requirement that you do not piggy-back off their brand is standard practice. That clause or something similar will be in every affiliate agreement. As for the term "365", I can't see how they can trademark that but if you have created a site with "365" in the domain name and are promoting bet365 on it (or rivals of theirs) then you can see their point. This would be an obvious and deliberate attempt to use their trademark for your advantage or possibly what they call "passing off" as bet365.
With regard the negative carryover (which I also wish was dropped), if you find you have a massive negative then talk to them on the phone. They do want affiliates to promote them. They will realise that an affiliate will drop them if the negative is insurmountable. Just talk to them. They are the sort of team to come to an arrangement so you can continue promoting them.
On the pathetic point of invoicing, if you can't raise an invoice or use a printer then you aren't capable of running any sort of business, just give up and go on the dole.

[GCG]

They can do whatever they like in order to protect their brand as long as they feel it is related.

I feel this domain issue is a grey area, you can not claim a number if there is no patent.

For using bet365 terms in the meta keyword tag : I think everybody is in violation .......!

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Raising the invoice is not an issue : forgetting it, is !