What do you think of the CAP banning frenzy?

[matted]

Interesting...

First, I think everyone needs to be able to speak their mind without being accused of inciting anger or being divisive.

Second - not everyone is up with the latest politics and gossip... and it seems it is (or wasn't) politically correct to discuss the merits of what is going on in the industry. If references are going to be made, can they please be explained? Not everyone goes to both forums and time is precious.

I have avoided CAP for a number of reasons - but actually thought things had gotten better recently. I was very surprised to see this note (it was so juicy, I had to come here and read it). I too am a bit surprised at some of the terms Michael has used - but at the same time, I think people should say what they feel.

So my question is... why do people still visit CAP? What does CAP have that GPWA lacks?

[TheGooner]

I can answer that. I visit CAP. I'm comfortable there.

It has the eyes and ears of some large affiliates, and the program managers are MUCH more active at CAP than at GPWA.

I find CAP a very useful place to catch up on the latest events, news and views, and in my list of forums to visit on a daily basis it's #1 on my list.

---------------

I visit GPWA. I like this place too.It's my #2 forum to visit.

But the GPWA does not have the breadth, depth or rapidity of response that CAP does, and many of the topics and posts) are quite newbie related.
(Not a bad thing - not as useful for me).

----------------

BTW J.Todd if you're reading ... APCW is my #3 spot. Weekly videos are a highlight.


----------------

All three places provide a slightly different slant on the i-gaming industry - and each site is invaluable to me in it's area.

----------------

I've never met any of the major players / protagonists is these latest series of spats between AGD / CAP / APCW / CM in person ... but my general impressions of all the people is that they're intelligent, opinionated, and passionate.

Those three qualities are great, but also very volatile, and it means that flames will start, and serious effort from all parties needs to be made to ensure that a passionate flare-up does not turn into a long running feud.

And despite what you may think - it's not too late - it's never too late.

In the meantime - I'll do the South Pacific version of Switzerland and attempt to stay neutral - because if I gave an honest opinion of the schoolyard behaviour of ALL people involved over the last 48 hours then I'd offend EVERYONE and would NOT be welcome at #1, #2 or #3 ...

... and it is my intention to be in good standing so as to be able to share a beer with ALL the people when we finally do meet face to face.

[mojo]

There are hundreds of affiliates. I don't think anyone is asking anyone to take sides. I think it's HEALTHY to be able to speak up safely here. The hard feelings are rampant. However, no one is telling anyone to 'take sides'. That is an individual decision and simple. Go where you like! Affiliates have a lot of power in this issue. More than the gpwa or cap and more than I think we realize. Who is running the show? I think we are able to come to our own conclusions. Why can't we speak up? Why is it such taboo? What are we afraid of?

[Sissy]

I know exactly how you feel Michael. JTodd did the same thing to me. I did not post one bad thing in his site or even in response to his video on Youtube. But I was banned from the APCW site.

I realize this thread is about CAP, but it is also about being banned at the whim of one who simply is in charge, doesn't like what you do or say and decides you don't merit his time or space.

What you all do is way above my head. I am not in this for the affiliates OR webmasters. For me, it is all about the players. Someone has to help those who pay for all of this!

I believe everyone does what they do to the best of their ability, whether it be their own way or similar to others. I believe that each should do the best they can, and as I have said.. work together when it is for a common goal and separately when it is not.

I find myself being glad I am just a "little people" as the Professor once called us and not being in the middle of those I had just begun to look up to. Richard was treated like crap at CAP. I was there and witnessed it. Fact of the matter is, none of this can be undone.

We can tear each other apart or we can build together and be stronger for it. We all have the choice. My expertise is in the area of online bingo, which, by the way is a larger part of the industry than it once was and needs whatever attention I can give it.

Thanks for the opportunity to speak my piece.
Sissy
Co-Admin
Bingoplayersunion.com

[Chips]

Before I begin I pledge to myself and my wife and cat that Iwill not become heated, beligerant or drunk and disorderly.

1. GPWA is the forum I began to learn all the "stuff" we affiliates really do and face. The input I recieved here has helped me to become a more productive affiliate, all the private members (when I was one) embraced me and helped me turn crap into websites I am proud of. My allegience remains here. I have been treated like family since day one and Micheal and staff I thank you for that. When you start out anew it is a great feeling to feel welcome and accepted.

2. I am a member at CAP and have become more involved lately, although as I told a fellow GPWA member, it does not share the same intamacy we have here. Now I am not saying CAP is cold but, I don't get the same warm and fuzzy I get here, again thanks GPWA!

3. I do not know enough on the subject here to say who is right and who is wrong nor do I know all the facts (and I really don't want to). I shall remain neutral as well. Many of the faces here are also at CAP and I hold the utmost respect to my fellow webmasters/forum owners, et al.

4. Previous posts say "for the good of the industry" I can not agree more, We all need to have a peaceful co-existance rather than "Forum Wars" We need to band together and and do what is best to promote a healthy, profitable (for all) and attempt to be at least be cival to each other.

5. I am Swiss on this whole issue for now. I love the GPWA, utilize and respect CAP and do not wish to add any flames to the already out of control, raging fire, I only hope that this issue can be resolved and we all can get along once again.

[bb1web]

Hi all,

I know some feel I don't live up to the loud mouth persona I portray when it comes to this subject. To those I can only say that I have a family to feed and all this pissing contest is a far second.

that said: I have partners who are big at several forums and that I am a Sagatarriuas (however the hell it's spelled) and they are known for their loyalty.

That's true with me. I came into this industry as green as possible and Lou saw me grow up and helped where possible. That's a loyalty that probably won't be broken but understand I am who I am. I call'em as I see 'em and if I can't speak ... I do not.

Everybody makes mistakes. That is what I have seen in this industry from all sides and I am surely included. (I just go thru making a public apology at CAP for speaking about something that was none of my business)

I feel Mr C made a mistake in this forum thread but that is only the latest in a long string of which EVERY party named or eluded is probably guilty and to some extent.

I'll say Lou's name now to even the score.

Now that's all said ... folks this is exactly what i am enduring as my father was killed by a drunk driver and my family can't come together enough to keep from seeing what my Dad did leave to us ... end up going basically to the bank and lawyers ... even though I have offered to give up a substantial amount of what I stood to get ... just to see some peace in the family and to not see it all lost ... if I got to lose to see my siblings get something ... better that than see us all lose.

I ain't no saint. I got plenty of issues with these family members but I am willing to lose a lot to not lose it all.

I strongly suggest everyone take a lesson from what I am experiencing because there's no honor in cutting everyone else's throat if you have to do your self and your loved ones in the process.

I realize the parties in question probably would weather any storm but i ask the rest of you ... can you? I can't. I need us to work together.

Please consider what i have said before you go spreading us even thinner.

[bb1web]

ps.

Paul (Gooner) answered a lot of questions exactly how I would have. whatever that's worth to you.

[pgaming]

The cost of cohabitating cyberland with CAP is too high. One runs the risk of being sucked into a black void. Some kind of muted vortex where there is no escape.

CAP is growing no wonder? Life is easy when you can pony pouch ideas and hold board members hostage facing financial ruin.

Agreed some make mistakes and learn from them some continually make the same mistakes.

If I have any honour then I shall say the truth for one last time. CAP you have no wind for affiliate sails. A disgrace polluted by greed bankrupt on any moral direction what so ever.

As for the CAPDROIDS the sooner you disinfect yourselves the better. All I have too say except http://www.hundredpercentgambling.co...-charge-of.htm

Disgusting! About time we start posting Proud CAP Banned Member seals on sites.

pgaming

[Webzcas]

You were even in Barcelona this year where you tampered with and ultimately stole the JV agreement we had with APCW.

Aha. Lou has shed light as to the reasons behind the banning of Michael and JTodd from Cap. Surely Lou of all people should realise business is business. After all isn't that the message KWBlue was given when CAP launched their T&C alerts yesterday.

I have to say from my own personal dealings with Michael on the few occassions I have had the pleasure of meeting him. He has been nothing but up front and honest. To the extent that he will openly admit that the affiliate programs on the GPWA are sponsors and are not certified.

I have been out of the game pretty much for a year up until a few months back due to personal reasons. Coming back to all this crap is ridiculous. We are in the same industry. However it looks like someone is more concerned about their own $ than the good of the industry as a whole.

[Simmo!]

Whatever the reasons, the last thing we all need right now is the two biggest and most useful affiliate communities falling out with each other.

Can I suggest CAP and GPWA meet up and sort this out and try to work alongside each other as they did before. Banning each other, arguing publically and going head-to-head is not exactly beneficial to our business.

[GPWA Aaron]

I am former employee who still uses these message boards from time-to-time, mostly to track the industry simply because I find it interesting. I have no stake in this argument, except my loyalty to Michael, which admitedly, makes me biased.

Even when I worked at Casino City/GPWA, I avoided delving into any GPWA/CAP issues ... they were beyond my own sphere, so I tried to stay above the fray.

I don't know all the issues in this dispute, but I can say this: The way that Michael and Lou seem to be handling it speaks volumes to me about who they are. Michael has opened up a forum for discussion on the topic at the GPWA. Lou has tried to supress voices by banning people from posting on his boards. If I were to get back into the industry, it would be pretty easy for me to figure out where I'd be most comfortable.

[thepokerkeep]

While I don't know why Michael chose to open up this can of worms, I do respect his right to do so. One of the things I respect most about GPWA is the fact that we can speak openly without fear of being banned. Michael gives us, his members that right, so, by default, he should be allowed the same freedom.

I speak my mind at all the forums; CAP, PAP, GPWA, APCW, etc.... most recently on CAP regarding the announced affiliate alerts program. I spoke my mind about Chipleader, AP/UB a while back as well. I did so even though I was concerned that it may get me banned. To Lou's credit, I'm still an active member there, even though I've heard of members being banned for saying a lot less.

I will continue to participate at CAP, they do provide an ear to most AM's we do business with. I believe CAP is a necessary resource for those who want to keep abreast of changes in our industry.

That said, GPWA is still my forum of choice. This is the community that has most helped me to grow as an affiliate. Each morning, I land here first. Throughout the day, I continually drop in to see what's been posted. I feel comfortable here!

[poptart]

I was banned years ago for a mildly snarky comment.



[NOTE: This post contained additional information the began a separate discussion. In order to preserve both discussions and allow them to continue without interferring with one another, the full post and responses to the new topic have been moved to the thread "Decorum and Forum Interaction Styles" posted here.]

[T3ddyBlair]

I am both a proud GPWA member and CAP member and both organizations provide me with up to date info through the brilliant magazine publications, and great support forums full of helpful members.
I have Both CAP and GPWA seals proudly placed on my sites and I hope it will stay that way!

Thanks both GPWA and CAP for the great forums...As new as I am to the whole world of Casino/Poker affiliations, I would really like to see both organizations resolve their issues and "kiss and make up" !!
After all where would affiliates like myself then come to for help and exchange ideas??

Regard.

Blair.H

[GamTrak]

Hi Michael,

I certainly understand where you are coming from and I'm in no position to make judgements as I had no clue who is/was banned and I have no inside CAP knowledge of how the business is ran. I'm there to have a voice in igaming and help in the community where I can.

I've always enjoyed everyone from both sides and have made some good friends/contacts from both sides and I would like to keep it that way since I plan on being in the industry for awhile.

Anyone is free to create polls at CAP, but I do not feel comfortable doing so myself because, again I would like to remain neutral in this 'crisis' and any other situation that does not involve me personally. I have enough real life issues and work to deal with.

Thanks
Robin

Robin,

I think you know that the GPWA is run as a very open forum where everyone that participates in a respectful way is welcome. In the past 2 1/2 years since I have been the executive director of the GPWA we've just banned two people for their posts (both in the same thread on the same day), and they were really only banned for a couple weeks (I'm excluding spammers from that count).

And the short-term banning of those couple of folks was done in significant part to maintain a good working relationship with CAP, since the offensive comments were oriented towards the Professor.

It would be interesting, though, if as moderator for polls at CAP, you initiated a poll to see if my ban as a member of CAP should be continued or not.

Even better would be if members of CAP should participate in decisions of whether members should be banned. If, from a distance, I could influence CAP to place banning decisions in the hands of the members, then I think I would have accomplished a lot of good for the affiliate industry.

Michael

[SharBear613]

I am a member of both GPWA & CAP forums. Sadly, I do not visit either as often as I would like to. I religiously read my GPWA magazine from cover to cover when it arrives. I proudly wear my GPWA t-shirt and flip through the directory I received. As a new forum owner and affiliate, I have optained a lot of great information form GPWA website. I have had many friends on here that have guided me, helped me, and supported me through my journey as a new affiliate. I am still learning and I will continue to absorb as much as I can, whether it by from GPWA, CAP, or both.

In a time when this industry needs to unite and fight for a cause we are losing, we need to band together more then ever. We still have a war to fight within in this industry in regards to UIEGA. We still need to band together to weed out the sites that are ripping off players, not paying affiliates, and have no business in this industry.

Both GPWA & CAP offer valuable information to newbies like myself as well as novice affiliates and members. I personally, have not been around long enough to know or try to understand what has happened between GPWA & CAP. Nor do I want to.

This is Michael's forum, therefore he should have the freedom to express his experiences just as he would want any member to. This apparently has been building up for some time and he obviously felt the final push and felt enough was enough. Why wouldn't members want to be aware of what they may be faced with or have been faced with already?

There are actually three sides to every story, each side's story and then the whole truth. Bottom line it is a he said/she said scenario. I don't think it was Micheal's intention to bring out every detail of his experiences. He simply mentioned the issue of being banned, as well as many of his staff. This is a forum where members should feel free to post their issues, problems, and concerns, so why shouldn't Michael have that same consideration?

I think he did it in a professional manner. He could have listed all the problems and issues, but didn't. He has choosen to take the high road and keep all that dirty laundry where it belongs, in their own closets.

I think it is great that no one is being asked to take sides one way or the other and again I am thankful for that.

I just wish there could be something that could help the two come together again and join forces for what is really important.......that players and the affiliates.

Sorry for rambling.....habit.

[tomgalanis]

From an operator's perspective - from one who is a platinum sponsor on GPWA AND certified on CAP, this isn't very nice to see. For me, this thread and comments made by highly upstanding members of the industry, has lost sight of what is really important. CAP and GPWA, amongst others, simply look to offer a choice of tools for webmasters and operators to use, and a venue for industry discussion. Given the obvious niche they all work in, there is inevitably friction, but it's hardly the Tattaglia's against the Corleone's, is it now?

As a certified partner on CAP, I have no doubt that we will benefit from CAP's expansion and development. At bet365, we strive to offer customers and affiliates a 'single wallet' solution - a one-stop shop, if you like. As do our competitors; each and every one of us working to differing goals, on differing budgets and different market positions. CAP is trying to offer a one stop solution to affiliates. No real harm in that, but clearly it's going to irk some people and effect others, given how tightly woven the gaming affiliate community has become and the number of entrepreneurial minds within it.

But I will say this, it is also great, if not essential, to have a choice and thanks to the GPWA, amongst others, the beauty of the internet is that it has and will continue to offer that. Choice is why online gambling has become such a phenomenon, and why affiliates have done so well out of it. I believe Michael and Lou both know this to be the case, and whilst I cannot speculate on the 'who's banned from where and why' debate, I sincerely hope that differences are resolved as soon as possible, for the good of the industry they both have worked so hard to harness.

Call me Jerry Springer, but I'll end with this thought: In 1785, when William Cowper claimed that "variety is the spice of life", things were obviously a bit more simple - mergers and acquisitions meant arranging marriages or conquering farms, rather than taking over forums or banks. That said, the internet, and all it offers, demonstrates Cowper's metaphor better than any other mechanism in history, and we must not lose sight of it. So people, please, if you could put the toys back in to the pram, swallow that pride and let's move on as one.

[Henrik - GNUF]

From an operator's perspective - from one who is a platinum sponsor on GPWA AND certified on CAP, this isn't very nice to see. For me, this thread and comments made by highly upstanding members of the industry, has lost sight of what is really important. CAP and GPWA, amongst others, simply look to offer a choice of tools for webmasters and operators to use, and a venue for industry discussion. Given the obvious niche they all work in, there is inevitably friction, but it's hardly the Tattaglia's against the Corleone's, is it now?

As a certified partner on CAP, I have no doubt that we will benefit from CAP's expansion and development. At bet365, we strive to offer customers and affiliates a 'single wallet' solution - a one-stop shop, if you like. As do our competitors; each and every one of us working to differing goals, on differing budgets and different market positions. CAP is trying to offer a one stop solution to affiliates. No real harm in that, but clearly it's going to irk some people and effect others, given how tightly woven the gaming affiliate community has become and the number of entrepreneurial minds within it.

But I will say this, it is also great, if not essential, to have a choice and thanks to the GPWA, amongst others, the beauty of the internet is that it has and will continue to offer that. Choice is why online gambling has become such a phenomenon, and why affiliates have done so well out of it. I believe Michael and Lou both know this to be the case, and whilst I cannot speculate on the 'who's banned from where and why' debate, I sincerely hope that differences are resolved as soon as possible, for the good of the industry they both have worked so hard to harness.

Call me Jerry Springer, but I'll end with this thought: In 1785, when William Cowper claimed that "variety is the spice of life", things were obviously a bit more simple - mergers and acquisitions meant arranging marriages or conquering farms, rather than taking over forums or banks. That said, the internet, and all it offers, demonstrates Cowper's metaphor better than any other mechanism in history, and we must not lose sight of it. So people, please, if you could put the toys back in to the pram, swallow that pride and let's move on as one.

Well spoken Tom.

[Rhino]

I honestly think this poll and your post is completely unprofessional particulary at a time when this industry should be coming together.

I believe CAP achieved this unprofessional attitude long before this thread, with their most recent actions concerning BCP, AGD and their banning of forum members.

In recent months, affiliates realised that CAP is interested in lining their own pockets - and good for CAP, charge the $24K yearly subscription to keep a program certified, you have to make money, but not at the cost of losing the people who made CAP - affiliates.

GPWA didn't create this environment, CAP did, and affiliates are reacting to it. GPWA saw that affiliates needed a voice, and reacted to it - unlike CAP, who kept on splintering the industry.

When affiliates start worrying about an industry leader who starts splintering the industry by bulling smaller organisations, you will get disent from affiliates, and other groups.

[satya]

Guys,

I have known and worked with both Lou and Michael for many years. Both have great contributions to our industry and the affiliates in general.

Michael, you are one of the most knowledgeable and passionate people around in our industry. Who said you don’t stand up for yourself? Your personality may be perceived by some as gentle, soft and geeky, but you are a strong believer in the values that you stand for and history has demonstrated this to the industry.

Lou, you are one of most intelligent and smartest people around in our industry. You have been one of the oldest super affiliates and have a huge contribution in shaping up the casino affiliate industry. You have helped and mentored lots of affiliates through your forum and I am sure there are many successful ones around who will dedicate their success to you.

In the common interest of our industry, can I request everyone to help in getting this situation resolved?

Guys, it’s not in the interest of the industry to see you estranged. I hope the old friends can sit together and have a mature conversation about resolving this standoff. For a change meet up for a drink at Spearmint Rhino or Badda bing if you like a Mediterranean theme – expecting both of you would be at Vegas for the conference.

I understand that this is not easy, but it’s never too late. Have a drink on us