What do you think of the CAP banning frenzy?

[arkyt]

In the common interest of our industry, can I request everyone to help in getting this situation resolved?

Right just bury it and then act like it never happened letting what has long been the status quo [silencing others at ones own benefit to prosper] to persist and fester ... thats the way its been for years - I ask you what has changed for the greater betterment of the industry as a whole in all those years?

The I'll scratch your back if you scratch mine mentality doesn't help the lot, it helps those getting their backs scratched! If this [GPWA/CAP etc] is truly about the industry and not the owners then things have to be addressed not buried and quickly forgotten!

When you stand up and identify yourself as a sheep then the next day reveal that you are actually a wolf over and over and over again for years, there comes a time, for the betterment of the entire heard [industry] that the wolf should get what hes got coming. Up until this point things have always just been buried - I imagine thats what will eventually happen here too, IMO, that will be another step back not one forward!

[mojo]

I just want to chime in on an opinion on whether this poll is professional/unprofessional.

The GPWA = The Gambling Portal Webmaster Association.

Webmasters here have discussed many important and contraversal isses here. I remember one impassioned one about if Playboy Casino. The question was if it is considered porn to put Playboy on a gambling portal. We may not all have agreed but in the end we all had a better understanding of different views.

This poll here is another issue in our webmastering world. It needs to be discussed because, as we can all see by the response, it affects many Gambling Portal Webmasters. We can't help resolve the issues if we don't know what they are. We need to share.

The GPWA members have supported each other through many things. Personally, professionally and even financially on a personal level. Should this poll be here? Absolutly, 100%. JMO.

[elgoog]

I'm with Swiss Gooner and BB1,
c'mon guys.....

[Fergie]

Michael has the backbone to put this in a public forum, take criticism and allow Lou to respond.

I have no problem with people making accusations or revealing bad blood - as long as it's in the open, discussion is allowed, and all parties involved can have their say.

On a lighter note, maybe we could get "I've been banned from CAP" T-Shirts - I'll take mine in a small or medium, please.

[Ricbyrne]

I have monitored this thread from it’s inception and even included my own remarks. But I think some of you have not really considered what went on between Michael and Lou and both forums. Consider this... both Michael and Lou head the two greatest Webmasters and Affiliates websites in our industry. I think you will all agree to that!

Both Michael and Lou are held in great esteem by the members of their forums and many members have membership in both. Considering the advanced position both Michael and Lou enjoy, is it not an act of disrespect for one of them to ban the other from their forum? Is that not an act of breaking unity between the GPWA and CAP? Just who threw the first blow here?

In my opinion... this was a great slap in the face for Michael. No matter what the so-called dispute was between them, it should have been settled behind close doors and not end up as a public humiliation of Michael. This is another case of poor judgment by the administrative leadership of CAP! Lou created this whole issue, yet comes to GPWA and posts call foul comments. Members of both sites need to remember who created this issue.

Michael is completely justified in creating the What do you think of the CAP banning frenzy? Poll Like I said earlier! Both CAP and GPWA are the leading Webmasters and Affiliates Sites in our industry. Is competition behind the professors banning of Michael? Surely there is an agenda here that we all are not privy to yet!

[Webzcas]

I am for one glad Michael made this public. Not just in the interest of GPWA Members but CAP Members also. Of which I am a proud member of both organisations.

That said it is a shame why Michael and Lou feel they no longer can work together for the betterment of the industry, affiliates and ultimately players.

The only reason I can understand as to why Michael and team have been banned from CAP is the purchase of the APCW from under CAP's nose. Lou has said as much in his one and only post in this thread. Yet Affiliate Guard Dog's hard work over the past couple of years gets emulated by CAP and KWBlue is meant to be ok with that? Sounds like double standards to me...

I truly hope, that Lou sees fit to lift the banning of the Casino City Team and sits down with Michael in London in January to sort this out. We ( Affiliate Community ) need CAP and GPWA to sing from the same page and I truly hope they can resolve their differences.

[aksana]

I respect all forums: GPWA, CAP, AGD, APCW, CM, GIA and I think all of them are very important for affiliates and especially for me. There were a lot of problems with affiliate programs which I solved using these forums, and even the worst rogue affiliate programs paid me commissions because they didn't want to have problems with me and had additional noise on these forums(of course, I don't work with them now).

I have never had any problems with CAP, usually I said what I wanted and nobody edited my posts.

But I don't understand why Michael, CityGuard, JTodd and others were banned from CAP?

[Nandakishore]

I have not been banned from CAP, nor am I interested in getting banned. But I am, just like aksana, at a loss to understand why Michael and the others were banned, unless they misbehaved in the forum. I have started a thread in CAP General Discussions forum on this topic:

Clash of the forums CAP and GPWA

[ogpaper]

I love these kinds of threads. Not so much for the drama, but I am truly entertained by the passion people show towards one forum or another. It’s just a forum, people, not even a website!?! There is almost no original content – you are those who “update” and add anything of value, not Lou or Michael!

I am a member of both forums, but to tell you the truth – If they both disappear tomorrow it will be all business for me, nothing will change. Yeah, I may not have a place to shoot the breeze, but on the bright side – I’ll get much more work done J

CAP Sucks –
a.) Most of us are actually well aware how CAP certification works. There is no need for discussions and whining about on this topic.
b.) With the introduction of GamTrack now for the first time we have a moderator who is not afraid to call members - idiots. That just comes to show you the direction of the forum.
c.) There is a really good chance you will be banned if you question “the establishment”. But then again, if I had a forum, I probably would ban people for disagreeing with me. And if you really, really, really want to be a member after getting banned, you can always sign up with a different nick.
d.) Keeping up with the Joneses too much – the AGD, the news section, the CAP seal, etc.

GPWA Sucks-
a.) Not much going on, honestly. There is the lack of discussion and usually the threads are one way only (either everyone agrees or disagrees). Perfect example is the PlayBoy casino – it was a good thread (although some folks got a bit personal), but ever since I have not posted. The fact that people still remember this thread speaks volumes.
b.) Personal information – I don’t like the fact that you have to disclose all your personal info to become GPWA portal. At least that’s how it was a couple of years back, don’t know about now.
c.) Anarchy – I love the fact that GPAW will not ban you for disagreeing with the forum’s line, but this freedom spills often into anarchy and results in personal offences which in turn overtake the actual discussion (again, Playboy casino example).


Bottom line – pick your poison. I am more active at CAP because I love discussions and don’t care about getting a “fuzzy” feeling (which by the way you can get at CAP, too, if certain requirements are met). There are a few webmasters active there, whose opinion I highly value and I am always ready to start a discussion with them.

I am also sad to learn that some of you think that “the industry should unite” means that “CAP and GPWA should work together”. Sorry to tell you, but CAP and GPWA are NOT the industry. I am the industry and so are you, but not CAP and GPWA. And if you clear your heads from the Kool-Aid (either CAP’s or GPWA’s) you will realize that neither forum has done anything of value for the industry. Here I should mention that I give enormous credit to Michael for his brass balls and the lawsuit, but this had nothing to do with GPWA.

And if GPWA wants to see more active members – they should seriously shake things up. And if CAP doesn’t want to see an outflow of active members, they should too shake a few “things” J

See? I just shot the breeze and now I am going back to work without the slightest care how this dispute between Lou and Michael will work out. I will be back, though, to check on how many people will dog me for being the “Antichrist” J

[pdjoe]

Thanks OG,

Thats the best read yet and good advice. Keep workin!

[Integrity]

"It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat."

Teddy Roosevelt

[Anthony]

Another joke Michael? ... You were even in Barcelona this year where you tampered with and ultimately stole the JV agreement we had with APCW.

I'd like to respond to the misrepresentation made in the quotation above. But first, since I know most of you are familiar with JTodd and few of you actually know me, I want to introduce myself to everyone. My name is Anthony and I am the APCW Auditing Director. I have been a part of the APCW since it started in 2003. I am JTodd's partner. I conduct audits of online gaming sites and handle some of the operational aspects of APCW. I also promote the "Perspectives Weekly" videos through various forums, blogs and social networks under "auditor" or "best deal".

The APCW never had an issue with CAP until recently and had always held them in the highest regards. We had an APCW room at CAP where we posted audit results and videos. I felt our relationship with CAP was productive and mutually beneficial. JTodd was the CAP 2008 affiliate of the year.

Earlier this year CAP approached us to create videos for them and asked what we would charge. We quoted a price, but were told our cost was too high. After that, a conversation between JTodd and a CAP member was relayed back to Lou in a very distorted manner. Lou's response was to remove the APCW room and ban JTodd and myself without first contacting us to try to clarify matters.

After we were banned from CAP we were warned not to say anything about being banned on the videos and told the APCW could either work under the CAP umbrella or be crushed. I quickly realized CAP was not playing nice. The APCW was a two man operation, we audited sites and produced videos. We were in no position to directly compete with CAP.

CAP made it clear they would come out with their own videos and start conducting audits (which they have) and said if we were smart we should sell to them. I felt they were presenting us with an "offer we couldn't refuse." We were clearly being strong armed.

I want to be absolutely clear that the APCW never had any type of joint venture or other agreement with CAP contrary to Lou's statement above. They did make us an offer which we rejected. Micheal did not steal the deal at CAP Euro. I personally contacted Michael after JTodd returned from Spain because I was very uncomfortable with the possibility of joining an organization that was treating us the way CAP was. From the talks I had with Michael a merger deal formed.

CAP has also practiced these same "mafia" tactics in targeting Affiliate Guard Dog and CAC. It is easy to use the excuse “it’s just business” and CAP easily does. But it is not fair to be bad-mouthed, beaten and then banned if you don't sing the praises of CAP.

In my personal dealing, CAP has been much less than professional, much less than friendly and much less than fair. There is no reason why we can’t co-exist. There is enough for everyone without resorting to predatory means to monopolize the entire industry.

We want everyone to participate with us for the betterment of this industry and we want everyone to be free to do so.

[Webzcas]

Hi Anthony,

Thanks for taking the time to put the other side across. Indeed the events you have posted are pretty much what I and others believed to be the case. That said it very sad that you and JTodd and in turn Michael and co have been treated in the way that you have, by the management at CAP.

I am going to stick my head out above the hole so to speak and express how I actually feel about this - This issue I believe is important enough to the gambling affiliate community for me to do so.

Transparency is paramount in this industry more than ever before as a result of the pressures we all are facing due to the continuing squeeze applied by sections of the US Government. Players are our lifeblood, without people willing to gamble online, there would be no need for online casinos and in turn affiliates for the gambling industry.

As a sector of the industry that contributes anywhere up to 30% of the player base for the online gambling industry, it is important that we ( affiliates ) have platforms and resources such as GPWA and CAP. Where we can help each other grow our businesses, provide some kind of cohesive regulation in a by and large unregulated industry and work together for the betterment of the players. Our lifeblood!

This is why I applaud Michael in starting this thread and informing the gambling affiliate community at large as to recent events. I see that some have labelled him unprofessional in doing so. I wholeheartedly disagree. It is important we ( Affiliates ) know what is happening, as after all it is us that have made the respective communities what they are today. Furthermore, without our input there would be no need for GPWA, CAP, GIA, APCW, AGD or any other organisation setup to look after OUR interests. Quietening the dissenting voice is not the way to go about things in business.

Which brings me to my next point and the perceived flexing of financial muscle by the management of CAP. I find it very worrying that other sites such as the APCW and AGD are being pushed out on to the sidelines. It appears to me that they have served their purpose. When CAP did not have these facilities inhouse that they provide, they were feted, asked to speak at conferences arranged by CAP and also provided dedicated forums to promote their services for affiliates. This is and was very much appreciated by the affiliate community and increased the reach ten fold of resources very much needed by our industry.

I have no problem with CAP subsequently developing these resources in-house after all CAP is a business. What worries me though is that in doing so and the subsequent banishment of the members who have been lauded on CAP for so long for providing these much needed services, shows that CAP is unwillinging to share the stage with other like minded organisations. In effect, CAP is trying to create a monopoly, whereby it becomes the only voice for gambling affiliates.

I am not interested in the politics and the they said that and they did this marlarky. I am interested in facts. The facts being that in order for us affiliates to have a proper representation and voice when it comes to problems with affiliate programs, we have the necessary resources available to help us.

Everyone knows that the affiliate programs on the GPWA are sponsors. There is no set criteria for programs to be listed, other than paying for the space they are afforded. Michael and his team are very open about that and have been since Casino City took over the running of the GPWA. The sponsors on the GPWA are afforded advertising space and a forum where members of the GPWA can communicate and work with programs should problems arise.

However on CAP, all programs listed are CERTIFIED, with a very clear implication that they have passed a rigid quality control to get listed on the site. You see this is what worries me. If the likes of AGD, GPWA, APCW are pushed out of existent, then we will only have CAP available as our voice to fight for us when the need arises. A monolopy as such, which first and foremost is protecting it's own interests first before it's members.

Whilst I applaud CAP on the hard work it has done and achieved over the years, the path it is now taking I cannot and will not agree with. I really hope that the management of CAP can sit down with Michael, JTodd and co and resolve this issue, so as they can continue to work together.

I don't want to take sides nor feel I should. However I felt it only right I made my views public.

[thepokerkeep]

I have not been banned from CAP, nor am I interested in getting banned. But I am, just like aksana, at a loss to understand why Michael and the others were banned, unless they misbehaved in the forum. I have started a thread in CAP General Discussions forum on this topic:

Clash of the forums CAP and GPWA

I attempted to access this thread but got blocked.
Can someone confirm that the thread is still available or has it been removed?

Message The Pokerkeep, you do not have permission to access this page. This could be due to one of several reasons:

1. Your user account may not have sufficient privileges to access this page. Are you trying to edit someone else's post, access administrative features or some other privileged system?
2. If you are trying to post, the administrator may have disabled your account, or it may be awaiting activation.

[Webzcas]

It has been removed.

[aksana]

I also can't access Nandakishore's thread at CAP.
I'd like to thank you guys for your posts, especially, I'd like to thank Anthony for his post.
Very interesting...

I don't see that Michael's post is unprofessional, why don't say what you want and ask members their opinions? For example, there are a lot of sponsors on the GPWA, and when we tell not very good things using only real facts about one of the GPWA sponsors, nobody tell us that it's unprofessional and nobody ban us. Because it's the truth.

[Fergie]

Webzcas, what you've said so eloquently describes my sentiments to a tee.

Thank you for such a well written response.

[MichaelCorfman]

In my opinion... this was a great slap in the face for Michael. No matter what the so-called dispute was between them, it should have been settled behind close doors and not end up as a public humiliation of Michael. This is another case of poor judgment by the administrative leadership of CAP! Lou created this whole issue, yet comes to GPWA and posts call foul comments. Members of both sites need to remember who created this issue.

You might be right about it being a slap in the face to me, but that was not why the poll question was posed. I'm not easily humiliated because I am careful to act on values in which I believe.

The primary reason I posted the poll question was on behalf of the regular webmasters that participate in the forums like Andy of Affiliate Guard Dog, and J.Todd and Anthony (who were a regular webmasters at the time they were banned). Many folks very clearly talk about not feeling like they can truly say what is on their mind in what is currently the largest affiliate forum, and I decided raising the issue as I did might create a little more freedom for folks to express themselves. I have found the views that have been expressed to me by CAP management about the proper control of forum particants through a practice of intolerance to be improper. I believe that people have certain rights, and I have been known to fight back when I believe rights are being trampled upon.

The other reason I posted the poll is because CAP management made it quite clear to me and to a number of other folks in Barcelona that they viewed they were a big and powerful enough gorilla now that they didn't need to cooperate with anybody else anymore. When an organization plays a leadership role in an industry, I think they have a responsibility to act like leaders and not like bullies. Using political censorship against member webmasters within their forums as a way of maintaining control is one example of inappropriate behavior for a leader from my perspective, and so I decided to do what I could to expose that practice for what it is in the hope that practice might change.

In terms of why I was banned, I have no explaination related to their stated criteria and I don't really know because I have never been told. Some have indicated to me it was because CAP management was upset because the APCW made the decision to merge with us, but while that is consistent with information I have, I don't know it for a fact. In Arjun's post earlier in this thread he implied this thread demonstrated why I was banned, but that puzzles me because this thread did not exist at the time I was banned and I've never expressed the views I've expressed in this thread before. From my perspective, being banned gave me the freedom to express my thoughts on the subject. Before I was banned I think the argument could have been made that it was inappropriate for me to hold such a debate in public. But not anymore.

I've raised the issue I felt I needed to raise in this thread with the poll, and am happy to have as cooperative a relationship with CAP as they desire moving forward. They are not banned here, and as long as I am not inappropriately banned there, we can move forward on a better path.

And I also think it is good business for CAP to invite GPWA members to attend their events. But I think they should remember that I am a GPWA member too and such an invitation should extend to me as well.

Michael

[Webzcas]

And I also think it is good business for CAP to invite GPWA members to attend their events. But I think they should remember that I am a GPWA member too and such an invitation should extend to me as well.

Spot on, it is only right and proper that you should be able to attend.

[mojo]

GPWA members will always be welcome at our events for free.

I was wondering that myself but was afraid to ask. Does this mean that banned members at CAP (like myself) can go to CAP events? I'd hate to fly halfway accross the world only to find myself unwelcome.