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  1. #1
    silcor is offline Private Member
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    Default Account Closed with no reason

    I am writing to you to inform you that with immediate effect your affiliate account is being closed and all player/s that are tagged to you are also being closed. This action is being taken due to a review by our security and risk dept on each of the players that you have sent and there betting/playing patterns.

    No further commission will be paid out on this player/s.
    After 8 years working as an affiliate, for the first time some have closed my account for no reason. Yes, last month players won a lot (like 1500 eur), previous 2 months was also negative (like 50 eur), but where is my fault as an affiliate here?

    I have send to Tobet something like 100 users. What gives Tobet a power to close my affiliate account if only some of them are winning?

  2. #2
    Shaun O'neill is offline Non-sponsor Affiliate Program
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    Silcor

    Firstly lets start this of correctly, we have had an email exchange and i have given you full details as to why your account has been closed down, but for the sake of the forum I will explain again.

    You have sent us a good number of players of which around 10% have deposited and almost all the of the 10% have had the sports betting limits reduced by our risk dept, since your affiliate account was opened in 2011 it has a running loss of over €4,000, as for last month you had losses way greater than €1500 the actual losses are over €7,000.

    In our mind your account and your players are not viable and we cannot make money from them so we are left with the two options:

    1. We leave you account open and allow it to continues running at a loss

    2. We shut down the source of the traffic being you and also close the player accounts

    As a company we have decided to take the second option, all monies that are owed to you have been paid and as these players will be shut down no further commission will need to be paid.

    I hope this is now clear as to why the account has been closed.

    Regards

    Shaun
    Last edited by Shaun O'neill; 6 November 2012 at 1:29 pm.
    Shaun O'Neill
    skype: oneillshaun

  3. #3
    silcor is offline Private Member
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    So, if someone is winning Tobet just close his account? Im curious what LGA Malta will say about this kind of statement. Especialy that we are talking about small money here - €7,000 loss in one year is almost nothing.

    And if affiliate bring you a players that winning you also close his account, to punish him for a "bad traffic"?

    By the way - in our correspondence you have written me, that "All of the players will be closed down". And that is a part that I didn't understand a most. If I bring to Tobet for example 100 players - how can you close all of them? Because some of them was winning?

    If you don't want more traffic from our sites - that's all right (in fact Tobet haven't a single banner on our sites since May). But closing a "lifetime" account because some player have won is a scam.

  4. #4
    Shaun O'neill is offline Non-sponsor Affiliate Program
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mso-ascii-theme-fontinor-latin; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-theme-fontinor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-theme-fontinor-bidi; mso-fareast-language:EN-US;} </style> <![endif]--> Silcor

    I have answered all of these questions and more via email at length with you prior to you writing on this forum, to me it is very clear as to why you want to make this public it is an attempt to shame our programme in public by stating we are scam and such is not the way to go about it.

    You may feel a loss of €7,000 is small but when your account has not seen a profit since July 2012 and it is very clear that with the traffic you have sent the account will never show a profit it makes no sense for it to continue to be open, so for this reason it is closed and will remain closed.

    As a company we have a right to close player accounts down, the details of which we do not have to make public to the source of traffic but each player has and will be contacted and closed down if you feel that the handling of the players is incorrect then it is your right if you have a player account under your affiliate account to contact the LGA and make a written complaint.

    I feel that I have answered all of your questions and that the issue should now be closed.

    Regards


    Shaun


    Quote Originally Posted by silcor View Post
    So, if someone is winning Tobet just close his account? Im curious what LGA Malta will say about this kind of statement. Especialy that we are talking about small money here - €7,000 loss in one year is almost nothing.

    And if affiliate bring you a players that winning you also close his account, to punish him for a "bad traffic"?

    By the way - in our correspondence you have written me, that "All of the players will be closed down". And that is a part that I didn't understand a most. If I bring to Tobet for example 100 players - how can you close all of them? Because some of them was winning?

    If you don't want more traffic from our sites - that's all right (in fact Tobet haven't a single banner on our sites since May). But closing a "lifetime" account because some player have won is a scam.

  5. #5
    thebookiesoffers is offline Former Member
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    without sticking my beak in and probably not knowing the full facts but wouldn't the fairest and most transparent way to go have the risk team look at these winning account and restrict or close them instead of just shutting the affiliate account down? unless all of the accounts are winning

  6. #6
    Shaun O'neill is offline Non-sponsor Affiliate Program
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    Hi

    You are not sticking your beak in fart from it, my risk dept have reviewed all of the depositing account and they have all been restricted and a number have been closed way prior to the affiliate account being closed this account and these players are not viable for any sportsbook business and as i have said and discussed with they will remain closed.

    Thanks

    Shaun

    Quote Originally Posted by thebookiesoffers View Post
    without sticking my beak in and probably not knowing the full facts but wouldn't the fairest and most transparent way to go have the risk team look at these winning account and restrict or close them instead of just shutting the affiliate account down? unless all of the accounts are winning
    Shaun O'Neill
    skype: oneillshaun

  7. #7
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    universal4 is offline Forum Administrator
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    Let me get this straight,

    If an affiliate writes really good tips, picking all winners and has players follow those tips and win at your sportsbook, you close the player's accounts and then close the affiliate's account.

    This is even more likely to happen to smaller affiliates, that just happen to send a few winners.

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  8. #8
    Shaun O'neill is offline Non-sponsor Affiliate Program
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    Rick

    Firstly let me explain a number of these account had been restricted and closed way before we closed the affiliate account for a number of reasons of which i am not going to detail on a public forum, second if we use your example, if an affiliate writes picks and the players follow these picks and they all win no sportsbook in the land would want to work you this is how sports books go bankrupt and affiliates make no money.

    It is very normal for an affiliate that sends a number of players to have a few large players restricted and shut down but the level from this affiliate is to a level that I have never seen please also note that the traffic he sent was all from Poland that has an average bet size of €7 and he had a loss of over €7k in one month.

    I hope this explains ever further as to why we decided on this option, if the traffic had shown any future potential the account would have been left open.

    Regards

    Shaun


    Quote Originally Posted by universal4 View Post
    Let me get this straight,

    If an affiliate writes really good tips, picking all winners and has players follow those tips and win at your sportsbook, you close the player's accounts and then close the affiliate's account.

    This is even more likely to happen to smaller affiliates, that just happen to send a few winners.

    Rick
    Universal4
    Shaun O'Neill
    skype: oneillshaun

  9. #9
    Pmig is offline Private Member
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    1st - A gambling business is a long term business, if players won 7k (peanuts), unless are fraud players, players will return later and spend...
    2nd - If your company loose straight 7k,your risk team should limit the betting level, not closing accounts, more, how much your company earn on booking? Yes, because your company not earn money only on player loses...
    3rd - where is on your terms & conditions, you know.. the agreement your company have with the affiliate, saying a affiliate have a threshold of loses to have account closed?

    But well... on this days everybody got a gambling license...

  10. #10
    silcor is offline Private Member
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    Shaun, you didn't answered all my question by e-mail. On my first e-mail you have send me one sentence answer. For a second - even a shorten one. And just a last one was a little bit longer, after I communicated you that I will make this issue public. My mission isn't to shame your programme - in fact I don't care about Tobet for a long time. But I own other affiliates to warn them if I see something unusual.

    And by the way - I never heard about players who can make a 7k eur making lots of 7 eur bets. Professional players don't bet 7 eur with 1000 odds - only gamblers can do that. So what is a point to close those kind account?

    I can assure you Poland isn't a magical county. Yearly we send about 10.000 users to other bookmakers. Some of them winning, but with a long run good odds margin make them loss. And if you have a problem with polish traffic - please explain me why http://www.tobetpartners.com is available only in English and ... Polish ?

    And please one more time - explain me what give you a force to close all the players account that was set up by mine affiliate link? What information will you send to this players? "Your account will be closed because you have signed up form xxx affiliate, and other players from those affiliate have won 7k eur?" or maybe "Your account will be closed because you are Polish so you can win 7k with 7 eur bets" ?

    I see this situation differently - I didn't send you a traffic for a few months. In October players have won, and you don't have a negative balance carryover. In November, in day that account was closed balance was POSITIVE. So is easy to close affiliate account and don't take risk that players who win in October loss they winning and you will have to share with affiliate.
    Last edited by silcor; 7 November 2012 at 12:25 pm.

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    Shaun O'neill is offline Non-sponsor Affiliate Program
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mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-bidi; mso-fareast-language:EN-US;} </style> <![endif]--> Pmig

    I will answer each of your points i think it also important that you understand a bit about us and that we are not some back street bookie working of some remote Caribbean island that pops and closes players and affiliate accounts for the fun of it.

    1. We are very much aware that the gambling business is a long term one, we as a company have been in business as bookie since 2002 so we have a pretty good idea if a players betting patterns will ever make us money will make us money. You are correct in that €7,000 iis not a lot money in many markets but when you are talking about a market such as Poland and the average bet amount is very low then €7k is actually a fair amount of money to get back. I also stated that a number of the accounts have been closed for other reasons by our security dept but we are not willing to write about the exact reasons on a public forum.

    2. Almost all of the players that this affiliate has sent have now been limited over a period of time, i am not sure what you mean with the rest of point two but if you are looking for our turnover numbers then these can be found on the quarterly report that has just be released and you will see that the turnover is very high.

    3. Of course we don’t have such a term but it simply makes no sense to continue having the account open if it is making solid losses and almost all of the players are being limited or shut down by our security dept, we do have a term stating that we can terminate the account which can be viewed on the following link: http://affiliates.tobetpartners.com/...conditions.asp section 10.

    With regards to your last point I agree with you 100% a huge amount of sites are obtaining gambling licenses and a lot of them have no credibility what so ever but Nordic Gaming Group was founded in 2002 and has a very solid back ground and does not have a history or player complaints and bad relationships with affiliates. I understand that you instantly jump to the defence of the affiliate and I guess I would if I was an affiliate but the last thing we want to do as a company is close down affiliate accounts and player accounts, once we do this we really have the loss and no chance of ever getting it back but as I said the loss has to stop at some point.

    Once again I hope this helps to explain the reasoning behind the account closer.

    Regards

    Shaun

    Quote Originally Posted by Pmig View Post
    1st - A gambling business is a long term business, if players won 7k (peanuts), unless are fraud players, players will return later and spend...
    2nd - If your company loose straight 7k,your risk team should limit the betting level, not closing accounts, more, how much your company earn on booking? Yes, because your company not earn money only on player loses...
    3rd - where is on your terms & conditions, you know.. the agreement your company have with the affiliate, saying a affiliate have a threshold of loses to have account closed?

    But well... on this days everybody got a gambling license...
    Shaun O'Neill
    skype: oneillshaun

  12. #12
    Pmig is offline Private Member
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    I did not jump in defence of the affiliate, I just stated the obvious. The only thing I see on T&C is your company could terminate the agreement for ANY reason.. (but this is not your company fault, almost all industry are doing the same on last times).

    Being in business since 2002 don't turn your company more or less honest than others...

    But well... This is not my "war" but, based on what I read on this thread, I just let you know if someday I think on signup on your program my decision will be "no thanks". (and think many other affiliates follow the same).

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    Shaun O'neill is offline Non-sponsor Affiliate Program
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    Pmig

    I agree being in business since 2002 does not make you any the less dodgy but have a look around for player or affiliate complaints you will not find a great deal.

    I have to say I think is a shame that you would not consider join us but that is up to, when I look at your site i can see you are working with some partners that have some very negative terms and conditions for affiliates but who you work with is up to you.

    Regards

    Shaun


    Quote Originally Posted by Pmig View Post
    I did not jump in defence of the affiliate, I just stated the obvious. The only thing I see on T&C is your company could terminate the agreement for ANY reason.. (but this is not your company fault, almost all industry are doing the same on last times).

    Being in business since 2002 don't turn your company more or less honest than others...

    But well... This is no my "war" but, based on what I read on this thread, I just let you know if someday I think on signup on your program my decision will be "no thanks". (and think many other affiliates follow the same).
    Shaun O'Neill
    skype: oneillshaun

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mso-ascii-theme-fontinor-latin; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-theme-fontinor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-theme-fontinor-bidi; mso-fareast-language:EN-US;} </style> <![endif]--> Silcor

    I think you might have got a bit confused with my post, I am not saying that your players only bet €7, I am saying that average single bet of Polish sportsbook punter is around €7, meaning if a player or group of players wins €7,000 from Poland we need to have a huge amount of traffic in to fill this void, and as you said the players that you sent are very clearly not recreational punters they are professional punters hence why so many are being limited.

    I understand that Poland is not magical place and as a company we have no issues with Polish players and we very much welcome Polish players at Tobet but what we do have issues with is the professional punters that you have been sending us and this is why your account has been closed down.

    As to what will be communicated to the players this will be handled with 100% professionalism and any players that have a positive balance will be able to withdraw without issue subject to the normal conditions, no blame will be passed to you as the affiliate, the accounts will simply be closed.

    With regards to the account being positive the day it was closed, it was positive by a few euros but one of the players still had a pending combo bet from the weekend on last night’s CL which went unnoticed when we had informed you that your account and the players would be closed otherwise the account would have been left open until the final bet had cleared, the combo actually won so the account is once again in a negative balance, but for the sake of the €25 that it was positive I will happily send you that money if can supply me your e wallet info, I wish you luck with the future running of your site.

    Regards

    Shaun


    Quote Originally Posted by silcor View Post
    Shaun, you didn't answered all my question by e-mail. On my first e-mail you have send me one sentence answer. For a second - even a shorten one. And just a last one was a little bit longer, after I communicated you that I will make this issue public. My mission isn't to shame your programme - in fact I don't care about Tobet for a long time. But I own other affiliates to warn them if I see something unusual.

    And by the way - I never heard about players who can make a 7k eur making lots of 7 eur bets. Professional players don't bet 7 eur with 1000 odds - only gamblers can do that. So what is a point to close those kind account?

    I can assure you Poland isn't a magical county. Yearly we send about 10.000 users to other bookmakers. Some of them winning, but with a long run good odds margin make them loss. And if you have a problem with polish traffic - please explain me why http://www.tobetpartners.com is available only in English and ... Polish ?

    And please one more time - explain me what give you a force to close all the players account that was set up by mine affiliate link? What information will you send to this players? "Your account will be closed because you have signed up form xxx affiliate, and other players from those affiliate have won 7k eur?" or maybe "Your account will be closed because you are Polish so you can win 7k with 7 eur bets" ?

    I see this situation differently - I didn't send you a traffic for a few months. In October players have won, and you don't have a negative balance carryover. In November, in day that account was closed balance was POSITIVE. So is easy to close affiliate account and don't take risk that players who win in October loss they winning and you will have to share with affiliate.
    Shaun O'Neill
    skype: oneillshaun

  15. #15
    Pmig is offline Private Member
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    Shaun, on this thread we are talking about you affiliate program not about my site (in reality I have more than 400 sites on several markets).

    More, you didn't know my deals, if is affiliate programs, if are paid placements, if i decide to promote for free...

    And please don't take this thread to a personal field because is ridiculous you talking on a huge lost of 7K. I and for sure other affiliates on this forum have some days with loses greater than that.

    If the affiliate made fraud and you have evidence then there is a reason to suspend the account but close a account because 7k loses on 1 year...

    I really don't want to enter on a discussion here but if you use google: https://www.google.com/search?q=nordicbet+scam You will see nordicbet dont't have a great feedback even from players, if you read SBR (one of the world major punters forum) you can find: http://forum.sbrforum.com/sportsbook...et-limits.html

    Please note I don't accuse your company of scam, i just use that word because is easier to search unhappy clients saying that word.

  16. #16
    Shaun O'neill is offline Non-sponsor Affiliate Program
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    Pmig

    I am merely stating a fact with regards to the sites that you have listed. With regards to the €7,000 this is not the major issue you can see from other threads within the GPWA that we have had huge winners but not closed the affiliate down in fact far from that, this affiliate is being closed because almost all of the depositing players he sent are professional punters and punters that have been closed down by our security dept, and in 1 year 3 months of working with him he had around three profitable months which totalled around €300 in net revenue his account and his traffic is simply not a viable for our business.

    With regards to the un happy punters of course when you have sportsbook and company that focus on a particular region/country players outside of that will not get the same offers and limits, this is pretty the same with casino and other products and many other sites so you will naturally have unhappy punters, but when you use that search term you don’t see mentions of us with holding players funds not paying bets out, removing tags from affiliated players, not paying affiliates this is because as company we value our players and our affiliate partners.

    Regards

    Shaun


    Quote Originally Posted by Pmig View Post
    Shaun, on this thread we are talking about you affiliate program not about my site (in reality I have more than 400 sites on several markets).

    More, you didn't know my deals, if is affiliate programs, if are paid placements, if i decide to promote for free...

    And please don't take this thread to a personal field because is ridiculous you talking on a huge lost of 7K. I and for sure other affiliates on this forum have some days with loses greater than that.

    If the affiliate made fraud and you have evidence then there is a reason to suspend the account but close a account because 7k loses on 1 year...

    I really don't want to enter on a discussion here but if you use google: https://www.google.com/search?q=nordicbet+scam You will see nordicbet dont't have a great feedback even from players, if you read SBR (one of the world major punters forum) you can find: http://forum.sbrforum.com/sportsbook...et-limits.html

    Please note I don't accuse your company of scam, i just use that word because is easier to search unhappy clients saying that word.
    Shaun O'Neill
    skype: oneillshaun

  17. #17
    silcor is offline Private Member
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    Shaun please send me those 25 eur. I can buy a house (or two) in our poor African country, or I can bet four 7 eur average bets and make another Nordic bookmaker bankrupt....

    If we will run small website with pro tips for pro players I could understand that you have a problem with a "professional" traffic for us. But we are running two 30k users forums and 10+ betting sites. So it is a "general" traffic, not a "professional" one, and I can show you with ease at least 5 bookmakers where our player generate 5 digits income every month. Poland isn't a "third world" country but a 40 million European market. So arguments like "they have won 7k and they are from Poland" are ridiculous! If you don't understand Polish market you can ask polish affiliate manager. But wait a minute - you don't have any since this year you have fired two of them...

    Thank you for wishing me luck. I also appreciate that "no blame will be passed to you as the affiliate" when you close down innocent players account...

    And by the way - I have also make a small research. In 2010 there was a huge scandal in Poland about Tobet Live Poker Polish Championships. You had a series of freerolls in major Polish cities. And after whole year of qualifications, winners are going to play 50.000 eur final sponsored by Tobet in December. One week before final Tobet have quit, so the only prize was a cup sponsored by Polish Federation of Poker. You aren't so crystal clear as you pretend to be.
    Last edited by silcor; 7 November 2012 at 5:51 pm.

  18. #18
    Shaun O'neill is offline Non-sponsor Affiliate Program
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    Silcor

    I am not going to respond to most of your post because I really think we could spent of life doing so but i will answer your final point.

    Yes we did run live freerolls in local cities for a good part of 2010 and yes just before the main event we did have to cancel, we had to cancel it for a number of reasons but this was hardly a "huge scandal" as you stated. No player lost any money and many had been compensated.

    Regards

    Shaun

    Quote Originally Posted by silcor View Post
    Shaun please send me those 25 eur. I can buy a house (or two) in our poor African country, or I can bet four 7 eur average bets and make another Nordic bookmaker bankrupt....

    If we will run small website with pro tips for pro players I could understand that you have a problem with a "professional" traffic for us. But we are running two 30k users forums and 10+ betting sites. So it is a "general" traffic, not a "professional" one, and I can show you with ease at least 5 bookmakers where our player generate 5 digits income every month. Poland isn't a "third world" country but a 40 million European market. So arguments like "they have won 7k and they are from Poland" are ridiculous! If you don't understand Polish market you can ask polish affiliate manager. But wait a minute - you don't have any since this year you have fired two of them...

    Thank you for wishing me luck. I also appreciate that "no blame will be passed to you as the affiliate" when you close down innocent players account...

    And by the way - I have also make a small research. In 2010 there was a huge scandal in Poland about Tobet Live Poker Polish Championships. You had a series of freerolls in major Polish cities. And after whole year of qualifications, winners are going to play 50.000 eur final sponsored by Tobet in December. One week before final Tobet have quit, so the only prize was a cup sponsored by Polish Federation of Poker. You aren't so crystal clear as you pretend to be.
    Shaun O'Neill
    skype: oneillshaun

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