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  1. #1
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    Default Affiliate Bonuses Deductions and hidden fee's The Legit Shaving?

    I have seen more and more threads come up across various boards all relating to similar things, earnings per player. I have also noticed quite a few affiliate programs are hiding deposit amounts, and gross earnings only showing net, i suppose to hide the true value of comms an affiliate receives.

    I have found most US programs to be fair and comms typically match agreed, however with many non US, mostly UK programs bonuses seem to be removed upon first deposit even if the player makes a loss and never plays through or withdraws, so effectively this virtual money is being taken out from the top end + many other hidden fees with the real earnings figure upon losses ending up at 6-8% on certain programs. Me personally i have just swapped the programs for those a little more fairer but just wondered what the members opinions on this are?

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  3. #2
    UTG
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    I have had many discussions regarding deductions with affiliate managers. I feel like many affiliate managers either don't know how important it is, or they try to play dumb. A couple of years ago someone tried to convince me of that 43% admin fee deductions (excluding jackpot contributions) are standard in the industry. Other affiliate managers try to ignore questions regarding the deductions, what they do with bonuses that the players never clear etc.

    I prefer working with revenue share since the average value of my traffic is good, but if the affiliate program can't provide details regarding the deductions then I have no reason trusting them with a revenue share-deal. They then have to offer a higher than standard CPA or they can go looking for a deal somewhere else.

    Some affiliate programs doesn't show deposit amounts as a standard, but they can activate it for individual affiliate accounts. I have required that with some brands.

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    What bothers most is that some programs make one-sided changes. They do not lower the rev share %, but they make the deducted costs a bit higher. At other programs it's not quite clear what are exactly the deducted costs. I do agree and understand that a revenue also implies a costs, but a bit of transparency would be good. For a lot of them the agreement is about a rev share %, not about how NGR is calculated...

    I have a program where is deducted 55%.

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  7. #4
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    1. There is no good reason for hiding deposit amounts. One AM seriously told me that Netrefer charges extra for displaying deposit data and that this is why they can't show deposit amounts to affiliates (because they didn't order this extra option with Netrefer) So, Netrefer is now sending deposit data to the operator and not vice-versa? Give me a break ..


    2. Microgaming used to charge operators 17,5% flat. Netent around 15% if I remember well. Not sure if these figures are still up to date. Some programs are deducting way more than that. Ridiculous that affiliates are basically paying for the software. Throw in bonuses that were never played through + transaction fees + admin fees (after all an affiliate is occupying a line in the database) and you are running an online casino almost for free. It dawned on me just now that this is actually a great business model.


    3. Superaffiliates are dictating the prices and operators are desperate to sign deals with them. In order to pay what they demand they need to find new ways to reduce expenses. Small and medium affiliates are therefore getting a smaller piece of the pie.


    What can be done? I don't know ... maybe we should all start online casinos and let affiliates pay for it.

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    MicroGaming charges 15% for their live gimes and classic games, 21% for their branded games. Evolution Gaming charges 22% for their live games. NetEnt charges 23% for mobile and branded, 21% for their elder games. Most other providers are charging less, Playtech I don't know exactly.

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    Great information, thanks! I think it also depends on the size of the operator. I know that Netent offered 15-17% (depending on revenue) to one of the bigger operators a few years ago. But 21-23%? Wow .. they raised their price tag!

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    Yes, it's always possible that bigger operators have better deals, like also bigger affiliates are having better deals than a guy that just signs up without requiring any better deal.

    I also do agree with your conclusions that many programs are looking for ways to save costs to pay their bigger affiliates.

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    A nice thread wonder punter, something which is one of my pet hates in this industry.

    The bonus is something I am particularly interested in.

    e.g. we are seeing bonuses slapped onto affiliates when someone signs up with a brand. What happens if this bonus then expires and the wagering requirements are not met? Do we get a refund of the bonus as it is no longer applicable, something tells me this isn't happening.

    As you said wonderpunter, this money is basically fictional until the point that a person reaches the wagering requirements and it is turned into 'real cash' either in the account or withdrawn. Until this point it is really only pretend money, yet we get it slapped on our affiliate account straight away.

    There are huge issues in this industry right now in the UK, I feel that it's getting worse and only a few companies are now playing fair with their affiliates. We need some regulation.

    The main issue is how much stats can vary on the same platform (Income Access, NetRefer etc). It seems that companies have too much power over the software to take whatever deductions they want out of the pot and also to detag players etc.
    These elements of the software should to some extent be untouchable i.e. the platform should be there to protect both affiliates and operators with a safe middle ground, not be able to be fiddled with at the company end to the detriment of us lot.
    Last edited by RacingJim; 28 October 2016 at 7:13 am.

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    First of all i think this is a brilliant post, because its a true reflection of what's happening.

    The respect for affiliates is at an all time low, and many companies are jumping on the bandwagon of reneging. Casino facing sites might be less affected, because the longevity of a player can be much lower. Thus the affiliate is required, since punters are moving from platform to platform.

    To be honest i have a handful of affiliate programs, and everything else is fixed paid advertising. The reason for this is obvious, i don't believe gaming operators will act correctly at a later date.

    I would suggest website owners are also in a position to change, and adapt to the new environment. And, i would be particularly weary of new operators promising massive revenue share, because their motives will become clearer later!



    Quote Originally Posted by wonderpunter View Post
    I have seen more and more threads come up across various boards all relating to similar things, earnings per player. I have also noticed quite a few affiliate programs are hiding deposit amounts, and gross earnings only showing net, i suppose to hide the true value of comms an affiliate receives.

    I have found most US programs to be fair and comms typically match agreed, however with many non US, mostly UK programs bonuses seem to be removed upon first deposit even if the player makes a loss and never plays through or withdraws, so effectively this virtual money is being taken out from the top end + many other hidden fees with the real earnings figure upon losses ending up at 6-8% on certain programs. Me personally i have just swapped the programs for those a little more fairer but just wondered what the members opinions on this are?

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    Brilliant post.

    Actually I see more performing (in terms of total revenues) the "so-called unregulated brands" that the "regulated ones".
    Most of them look like charity companies than casino rooms. Conversions very low and when you "convert" looks like a player is scared for something weird after a first, single deposit and run... must be Halloween all the year there.

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    So so far it seems like a mutual consensus, with regards to transparency and fee's along with bonuses, I see some quotes of between 15-22% netent, microgaming fee's but real time money earnt is around 6-10% with quite a few casinos. and like racing jim agreed.. we are paying hard cash for monoply money bonuses whjich have a 80% chance of never been cleared, I seem to have tailored my programs for the fairest amounts, or reduced exposure.

    Crazy thing is I do not see these problems on RTG, Betsoft.. it's like every one is quadruple dipping then giving 40% of the scraps, frustrating

  22. #12
    Sherlock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wonderpunter View Post
    I have found most US programs to be fair and comms typically match agreed, however with many non US, mostly UK programs
    Quote Originally Posted by dfiocch View Post
    Actually I see more performing (in terms of total revenues) the "so-called unregulated brands" that the "regulated ones".
    Quote Originally Posted by RacingJim View Post
    There are huge issues in this industry right now in the UK, I feel that it's getting worse and only a few companies are now playing fair with their affiliates. We need some regulation.
    I agree with everything but not the last bold sentence. Either way, what we need or want is irrelevant. We are nothing, just leafs in the wind.

    But it is obvious that it is the regulation that causes this. It is so different to talk with illegal US bookies. They make mistakes, they look in many ways completely amateurish. But their stats are not bullshit. Their business is both stable even with bitcoin and affiliate-friendly (they really need us). If there is a problem, it is usually not a problem to talk with someone competent fast. It is possible to talk even with owners.

    It is the regulation and overtaxation that caused this mess and it is the regulation that will cause our end. We are not be needed on the UK market, so we are screwed. And we will be screwed more.

    UK is a state in hands of corporations and conglomerates. Betting companies, TV stations, ISPs, whole amusement industry cooperates with state, law and regulations. They are creating a closed club. There is no way to opt-out. I love Bet365, I really do and appreciate how honest they are. Heroes of this decade. But they will have to join as well. I stopped counting real revenue share there long time ago. Preparing myself for being robbed more, then even more and then completely. Hoping it will be in this order. It is not a fault of anybody. It is just where the society is coming. I am not surprised that owners were pissed off with regulation and sent the companies to IPO and screwed the biz. I would do the same.

    I just hope there will be more deregulated markets, where betting is forbidden. It is the biggest irony and lesson, that they work best.
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    Super - This is a discussion I would love to see in detail.

    Is there a transparency template we can possibly formulate and request from each program in order to get closer a true rev share %?

    Also, hats off to the Deckmedias, Bodogs etc.. who genuinely have a fair operation where partnership is seen as such.

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  26. #14
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    Speak of the devil!
    Hi,

    We're writing to let you know about a change to our affiliate revenue share program that will affect you.

    As many of you are aware, the cost of doing business in the industry has increased. Currently our Affiliate revenue share calculation includes all costs incurred by the player, i.e. transactional fees, bonuses, promotions etc. However there are lots of other activities essential to running a fantasy sports company that are not included that we must account for. These activities include operational, product and customer support.

    As such, our affiliate revenue share calculation will now include a 10% administration fee, that will be deducted when determining Net Revenue before affiliate commissions are calculated.

    The administration fee deduction will be applied on November 1st and will be backdated October 1st. All affiliates that earn revenue will be subject to the administration fee.

    Details of the administration fee and updated affiliate program terms and conditions can be found here: Terms and Conditions

    We appreciate your support and look forward to our continued, mutual, success.

    Regards,
    FanDuel Partners Team
    Exactly this is the regulation. Now just wait for fanduel to merge with DK. Then there will be more fees. Then IPO. More fees. Then more taxes. More fees.
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    MMM
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    Yep. I think since UK regulations the rev-share dropped by at least 25%. The funny part that as long as the artificial number before the rev-share remains the same - the program is considered legit.

    That is also why aff programs can come with those ridiculous 60% rev-share offers - since this number is absolutely meaningless.

    Quote Originally Posted by casaffiliate View Post
    One AM seriously told me that Netrefer charges extra for displaying deposit data and that this is why they can't show deposit amounts to affiliates
    That's beyond ridiculous.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sherlock View Post
    I agree with everything but not the last bold sentence. Either way, what we need or want is irrelevant. We are nothing, just leafs in the wind.

    But it is obvious that it is the regulation that causes this. It is so different to talk with illegal US bookies. They make mistakes, they look in many ways completely amateurish. But their stats are not bullshit. Their business is both stable even with bitcoin and affiliate-friendly (they really need us). If there is a problem, it is usually not a problem to talk with someone competent fast. It is possible to talk even with owners.

    It is the regulation and overtaxation that caused this mess and it is the regulation that will cause our end. We are not be needed on the UK market, so we are screwed. And we will be screwed more.

    UK is a state in hands of corporations and conglomerates. Betting companies, TV stations, ISPs, whole amusement industry cooperates with state, law and regulations. They are creating a closed club. There is no way to opt-out. I love Bet365, I really do and appreciate how honest they are. Heroes of this decade. But they will have to join as well. I stopped counting real revenue share there long time ago. Preparing myself for being robbed more, then even more and then completely. Hoping it will be in this order. It is not a fault of anybody. It is just where the society is coming. I am not surprised that owners were pissed off with regulation and sent the companies to IPO and screwed the biz. I would do the same.

    I just hope there will be more deregulated markets, where betting is forbidden. It is the biggest irony and lesson, that they work best.
    Yeh fair enough, I guess I just want a fair software company in the middle that is not complicit in the betting companies screwing affiliates. There is too much of a hand in hand relationship between the affiliate software providers (i.e. netrefer, Income access etc) and the actual betting companies. This whole close relationship is where the honesty of the whole 'affiliate % deal' gets left wide open to being abused.

    The only way is transparency. Numbers are bandied around in this industry - '50% rev share!' '35% rev share' etc etc. But it's clear these deals are not comparing apples with apples. We need to see accurate, comparable data. It's basically the wild west and we get what we're given, hence the massive discrepancies in actual affiliate revenue between different companies.

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  31. #17
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    Yes, I want it too. But what do we have? I should not ask that in public. But do we have some power at the regulated markets? Or to follow you: Why should software providers talk with us more and not with the betting companies? Yes they need us as they need casinos. But casinos pay them. And that is the power shift. Casinos are usually bigger than affiliates and much better organised/not so fragmented. Let's be frank. We are all amateurs. That is why we are so good at what we do: scrambling every corner of traffic. But in the end it is all about power not about fairness. And we are at disadvantage from the beginning.

    I talked with an AM about the software a bit. They are on IA. Not so happy with then and def not happy with fees that they have to pay (I must admit they are one of few very fair even on IA). He was thinking that he would like to develop proprietary affiliate software. Probably he won't. But it might be in theory a way to power: to develop fair (or even open source) affiliate software and give it to affiliate programs for free. Something transparent for us and saving money for them as well. Then insist on using this software. But development of this would cost few millions (and bring us few billions). Collective action would be needed. As I read this forum, we are unable to join forces ever. We will just bitch around and talk and talk. It is no ones fault. We are competition to each other after all.

    So we can forget about about the fair software. Even the market of software providers is oligopolised. The new and small players like Mexos are horrible, so there is no push to improve. The best affiliate software are ancient proprietary pieces from 5dimes or Betdsi. Incredible but true. All the innovation during last 15 years went backwards (for affiliates). Why? Because we have no power to demand fairness. So we are in the same situation as John Doe that wants from politicians that they do not lie. It is better to accept reality. We will not see a transparent software from big players. And nobody will help us.

    If we want a transparent software or at least respect (so we will not be cheated a lot with nontransparent software), we need as deregulated markets as possible and free competition. It is impossible until some huge social and economical changes happen (and we can be dead when they happen). The changes are not in our hands.
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  33. #18
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    perhaps GPWA or another Affiliate forum or even affiliate with great table skills should build a real commission table i.e Virtual Bonus removed, lists of all hidden fees etc, they already show certain aspects countries, cookies etc, now this hammering of affiliates seems to be catching on the same corps should be named and shamed so any affiliate looking to do serious business do not get sucked in. perhaps then they will change their ways?

    These certain programs think we do not have expenses, or perhaps the work we put in isn't worth it? perhaps ppc at google with 100+ per click is better value?

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    Anybody any ideas what this is, i'm noticing it a lot on IA Programs, in this instance player signs up and deposits 99.89, i'm credited a bonus of 2256.07 ( when the bonus amount is usually negative ) and then the net revenue is negative 4189.84. Whenever a bonus is "credited" the net revenue is always massively negative. There's 4 or 5 of these instances on one program this month and it basically just wipes out any commissions. However i'm experiencing the same situation on approx 4 different IA Programs.

    10/28/2016 10/28/2016 gbp 99.89 2,256.07 -4,189.84 0

    Its beginning to annoy now as it's happening all to often.

  36. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by MMM View Post
    Yep. I think since UK regulations the rev-share dropped by at least 25%.
    It's not just affiliates seeing this drop, it seems to be across the board. The new UK software allows better responsible gaming options for the player like setting deposit limits and self exclusion within a click. IMO this is the reason for the drop. As a side note, before DK was regulated it was a highly profitable market. After regulation, not so much.

    That is also why aff programs can come with those ridiculous 60% rev-share offers - since this number is absolutely meaningless.
    For the programs who don't deduct any fees (eg. us) these numbers are legit.
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