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  1. #21
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    Good to see that more people are starting to think about this.

    I wrote a piece about this not too long ago in Calvin Ayre.

    To cut a long story short, I do not believe that asking the programs for their formulae is the right way to go about this. Why? Well I have asked them. Many of them. The AM's either: 1. don't quite understand the intricacies of the NR calculation or 2. are under strict instruction to reveal as little as possible to affiliates (more the former that the latter in my experience).

    The only way to get to grips with this is to do an audit. Someone needs to coordinate the process. Register fresh affiliate accounts. Sign up a player. Lose some money. Do the calculation. Document the outcome and then ask the AM to confirm whether you are understanding the technicalities correctly if it does not seem clear (the only complication at times is to understand how the bonus is handled).

    We did this for 25 programs but ran out of time. We were horrified and summarily dropped three programs on the spot, increased some, and decreased some

    I am of the belief that this can not turn into a witch hunt.

    This needs to be handled diplomatically. If affiliates vote with their feet, programs will change. They won't change if they get called out in public.

    The question is who will coordinate this and where will the information be published and will it be public?

    Forget regulation. The only way anything in the affiliate industry will be regulated is if the likes of the ASA and similar bodies in other countries see a need to do so. It will take a lot to convince me that this will be a good thing in any shape or form.
    Last edited by stgeorge; 30 October 2016 at 8:14 pm.
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  3. #22
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    Upvoted.
    Even when I do not agree w/
    If affiliates vote with their feet, programs will change.
    Did Willhill change? Ladbrokes? Paddy? 888? No. But I guess they lost a lot of exposure.
    We are all bloodsucking ticks, hungry, devious
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  4. #23
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    St George - Interesting that you took it a step further and did the acid test. However, expecting affiliates to come together is a long shot, because like with Union strikes their will always be those who break the line!

    I have a feeling that the affiliate business is ''i'm alright Jack'', or everyone for themselves!!

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  6. #24
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    So here is another scenario freebetking mentioned a 2,500 bonus there by taking him into a negative of 4k, I have also seen with lots of complaints about videoslots.com that from thousands in deposits affiliates claim to make 0 or worse land in the negative even with huge sums deposited every month, we all pretty much know if you give a player a bonus "odds" are it's never going to hit especially with the high WR, my question is do any affiliates feel like the program is over using these virtual bonuses which never have any actual cash value anyhow "or should not have" as a way to dumb down comms?

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  8. #25
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    Wonderpunter asks: my question is do any affiliates feel like the program is over using these virtual bonuses which never have any actual cash value anyhow "or should not have" as a way to dumb down comms?

    Like you say this is a ''
    virtual bonus''. I tell you what i think and that's a lot of stress and calculation could be saved if the program played a straight bat. By that i mean they should quote affiliate share from stakes minus payout (end of story). Nothing hidden, and it can be any number the calculated.

    Any business arrangement should have full clarity before a deal is struck. And, that must also include the term and any conditions which need satisfying.

    Instead what happens is everyone believes these gaming operators are a bunch of reneging rats - and that part is becoming increasingly obvious!

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  10. #26
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    Great thread. And how about admin fees? What is a fair fee, a fixed percentage or a fixed price? What is the average admin fee?

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  12. #27
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    Why don't we set up our own audit then? What's the use in an audit if the results aren't made known to a wider audience, even if it was released anonymously in a whistle blower style, I think some of the programs need a wake up call and we desperately need info and data to prove that this stuff is happening.

    I do think along the same lines of Wonderpunter, the bonus seems to be one of the causes. If the program are able to fiddle with the bonus amounts at will, then who's to say they're not adding big bonuses each month to make the affiliate's revenue lower. Then that bonus can magically disappear at a later date when the customer doesn't meet the wagering requirements but alas the affiliate won't get that back.

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  14. #28
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    Looking at player value over time (2-3 yrs) it is clear that some brands are doing something 'wrong'...I believe an indipendent body recognised by the affiliate industry were affiliate programmes get audited and get a mark when they pass would be a solution. Affiliate programmes that do not want to be audited they won't have that stamp but than it will be clear to affiliate they have something to hide.

  15. #29
    Triple7 is offline Private Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by bettingspin View Post
    Looking at player value over time (2-3 yrs) it is clear that some brands are doing something 'wrong'...I believe an indipendent body recognised by the affiliate industry were affiliate programmes get audited and get a mark when they pass would be a solution. Affiliate programmes that do not want to be audited they won't have that stamp but than it will be clear to affiliate they have something to hide.
    Many brands are also doing some cross-selling to get rid of the affiliate tag.

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  17. #30
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    I think this is the biggest issue of affiliate industry. We all tend to evaluate the programs by some obvious relatively small things, that are sometimes nothing but nitpicking like noneg rollover. Why? because it is easy to spot, easy to talk about it. I am fine even with quite harsh parts of TOS. I am relatively ok now with bwin for example, because they got the lesson and even when they have unfavouable terms, they at least do not cheat I think.

    So we are focused on small things and omit the huge one that is much more important. AGD charts are nice, but also useless at the same time. I do not care about real time stats, or if they pay once a week or month. And who likes this state? The cheating affiliates. If they come here and see that even on this forum we are unable to identify and address our biggest outflow of money, then they are taking freebets on us. In the Uk it is much worse with all the mergers, so they are not afraid of competition, because Amaya or some other VC-doped-conglomerate will buy it all and they will be free to do whatever they want. It is and will be our nonexistent revenue that will be called their returns of scale.
    We are all bloodsucking ticks, hungry, devious
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  18. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scampi View Post
    Great thread. And how about admin fees? What is a fair fee, a fixed percentage or a fixed price? What is the average admin fee?
    Best ones are the operator admin then the casino admin to look after your account,then minus full whack monopoly money bonuses andyour are left with chump change for big players.why are we getting hit with costs if no loss has been made?and some of these bonus amounts are insane..effectivley casinos are making thousands yet placing affiliates into the negative even though players are coming into losses

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  20. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sherlock View Post
    I think this is the biggest issue of affiliate industry. We all tend to evaluate the programs by some obvious relatively small things, that are sometimes nothing but nitpicking like noneg rollover. Why? because it is easy to spot, easy to talk about it. I am fine even with quite harsh parts of TOS. I am relatively ok now with bwin for example, because they got the lesson and even when they have unfavouable terms, they at least do not cheat I think.

    So we are focused on small things and omit the huge one that is much more important. AGD charts are nice, but also useless at the same time. I do not care about real time stats, or if they pay once a week or month. And who likes this state? The cheating affiliates. If they come here and see that even on this forum we are unable to identify and address our biggest outflow of money, then they are taking freebets on us. In the Uk it is much worse with all the mergers, so they are not afraid of competition, because Amaya or some other VC-doped-conglomerate will buy it all and they will be free to do whatever they want. It is and will be our nonexistent revenue that will be called their returns of scale.
    I think bet365 prove that most of the words + terms used to promote other affiliate programs and lure in webmasters are a load of bollocks, examples:
    - no neg carryover!
    - 60% for your first 3 months!!!!
    The list goes on.

    What Bet365 prove is that a solid company, playing fair with affiliates doesn't need to do all that nonsense. Look on the surface they offer:
    -ONLY 30% rev share
    - Oh my god negative carryover!!
    Yet they make money from their customers if you send ok numbers and give a fair amount to their affiliates. It's a shame this niche is so dodgy at lots of the other companies.

    Bottom line is, does a program make me good money and do the customers have good customer value. All the rest is just waffle.
    Last edited by RacingJim; 1 November 2016 at 6:35 am.

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  22. #33
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    So here is another scenario freebetking mentioned a 2,500 bonus there by taking him into a negative of 4k
    It's not a 2,500 bonus which can be deducted for the player, that's the thing, it's a 2,500 credit for that player on my account ( in the bonus field ) the same day they signed up and deposited a mere £99, which does not make sense.

    So it's saying i'm earning commission on that 2,500 credit for some strange reason.

    But whenever that happens the actual net rev for the player is always a massive negative for the day which far outweighs the 2,500 credit and obliterates any commissions legitimately earned on other players for the month.

  23. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by freebetking View Post
    It's not a 2,500 bonus which can be deducted for the player, that's the thing, it's a 2,500 credit for that player on my account ( in the bonus field ) the same day they signed up and deposited a mere £99, which does not make sense.

    So it's saying i'm earning commission on that 2,500 credit for some strange reason.

    But whenever that happens the actual net rev for the player is always a massive negative for the day which far outweighs the 2,500 credit and obliterates any commissions legitimately earned on other players for the month.
    it-s as the title suggests, a form of shaving using bonuses and credits to justify it, no real money is lost by the casino, actually they are in full profit the only losers are the player that lost his stake and the affiliate from genuine earned comms

  24. #35
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    This a very important discussion, and a costly practise for us affiliates.

    I just checked last months stats for one of the programs I promote that use Income Access:

    Deposits: €73,256.19
    Bonus: €-18,971.19
    Gross Revenue: €17,907.85
    Net Revenue: €-1,063.35

    So by deducting every signle penny given in bonuses from the gross revenue, I ended up earning nothing, even though the casino itself made a lot of money from the players I have sent them. Gives me a bad taste in my mouth.

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  26. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeternus View Post
    This a very important discussion, and a costly practise for us affiliates.

    I just checked last months stats for one of the programs I promote that use Income Access:

    Deposits: €73,256.19
    Bonus: €-18,971.19
    Gross Revenue: €17,907.85
    Net Revenue: €-1,063.35

    So by deducting every signle penny given in bonuses from the gross revenue, I ended up earning nothing, even though the casino itself made a lot of money from the players I have sent them. Gives me a bad taste in my mouth.
    And i can bet you that even the 17k Gross revenue figures is probably actually even higher without the multitude of extra, admin fees, and other hidden costs

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  28. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeternus View Post
    This a very important discussion, and a costly practise for us affiliates.

    I just checked last months stats for one of the programs I promote that use Income Access:

    Deposits: €73,256.19
    Bonus: €-18,971.19
    Gross Revenue: €17,907.85
    Net Revenue: €-1,063.35

    dSo by deducting every signle penny given in bonuses from the gross revenue, I ended up earning nothing, even though the casino itself made a lot of money from the players I have sent them. Gives me a bad taste in my mouth.
    To deduct bonuscosts, is fair in my opinion. To deduct the whole bonus, is just criminal as it are not real costs. Bonus money is pure fantasy as long as it's not played through. Just the costs are real, as casinos have to pay their share of spins made by bonus money.

    I am also curious what has exactly happened with the money that is the difference between deposits and gross revenue. At some IA-programs I also see transaction fees and admin fees deducted.

    It's always a big irritation if a nice casino pops up and when signing up for their affiliate program, I notice they're working with IA.
    Last edited by Triple7; 1 November 2016 at 2:50 pm.

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  30. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeternus View Post
    This a very important discussion, and a costly practise for us affiliates.

    I just checked last months stats for one of the programs I promote that use Income Access:

    Deposits: €73,256.19
    Bonus: €-18,971.19
    Gross Revenue: €17,907.85
    Net Revenue: €-1,063.35

    So by deducting every signle penny given in bonuses from the gross revenue, I ended up earning nothing, even though the casino itself made a lot of money from the players I have sent them. Gives me a bad taste in my mouth.
    These stats do not compute IMO.
    How would the gross revenue just be 17k when total dep is 73k ?

    Can you share the program with us? My guess would be casinoluck cause I am having a similar case with them.
    Information is the key to success and Ignorance is the mother of most mistakes.
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  32. #39
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    How would the gross revenue just be 17k when total dep is 73k?
    Withdrawn money and winnings?

  33. #40
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    I have worse ratio between deposits and winnings at Bet365. It depends on niche. Sports tend to have worse ratio than casinos, but even in casinos this is possible.
    We are all bloodsucking ticks, hungry, devious
    each one latched on to the ass of the previous
    when the last and the first latch on it can be shown
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