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  1. #41
    TheGooner's Avatar
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    Here is what I can contribute to the discussion.

    We maintain monthly figures on all partners and have all sorts of financial numbers and click ratios.

    Of course we can't really tell what fees are involved or being deducted (*) because we don't have all the useful columns like fees, charges or even withdrawals, however, I find that the BEST indicator of a fair partnership is payment per First Time Depositor (FTD) when taken over a period of 12 months or more.

    Not surprisingly, the best sportsbook for returning value per FTD is Pinnacle who offer no bonuses to players and simply compete on being the best odds. We have 5 mainstream UK groups, and two North American facing groups that we promote too.

    Overall these EIGHT sportsbook / casino / poker groups we rank them out of 10 for value this way :
    Pinnacle (10)
    Bet365 ( 8 )
    Ladbrokes (7)
    Bovada (6)
    BetVictor (4)
    BetFred (3)
    BetOnline (3)
    PaddyPower (1)

    Yes, a player at Pinnacle sports is worth 10x what a player is at PaddyPower on average. Now this could be for a lot of reasons such as bonus policy, type of player attracted, and just bad luck, but these are stats over 36 months and over 100 actives at each site ... so I think that they are representative of expected returns.

    -----------------

    And responding to deposit ratios - you need to also allow for ease of access that UK bookmakers provide customers - e-wallets, debit cards, unlimited withdrawals etc, which mean that players frequently deposit play and withdraw in the same session.

    Compare that to (say) Pinnacle that allow one FREE withdrawal and you will understand why the deposit churn is much lower at non-UK sites.

    So at North American sites we tend to see Net-Rev at around 40% of deposits, at United Kingdom sites Net-Rev is about 20% of deposits almost across the board except Paddy Power - where it is about 8% ??! (fees again?)

    ----------------

    (*ahem*) Well we do have one insight into fees

    Once PaddyPower mistakenly opened up their fees column after a system update for 24 hours and we captured information for a six month period that showed the 105K gross revenue was reduced by 90K of various fees to just 15K net revenue.
    Last edited by TheGooner; 1 November 2016 at 5:02 pm. Reason: DEPOSIT RATIO ADDITION

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  3. #42
    RacingJim is offline Public Member
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    Yep the Paddy power case was a disgrace, but sadly something that I think is replicated across a few others as well.

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  5. #43
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    Fee rorting MIGHT be replicated across other sites ...
    But if it was that high at any of the others I mentioned then surely their average value would be down at the same levels as well?

    That was the whole point of my post - given the lack of complete data - it's almost impossible to directly detect fees. But you can detect the ABSENCE of wholesale fees when the player value stays high -especially if you are measuring large numbers of players from the same affiliate source.

    In a way it's a bit like the way Astronomers detect planets around distant stars, they can't see the planets really, but they can detect differences in the star light to determine that a planet orbit must have got in the way to block it. So it is that we can detect likely fees given the absence of value paid out.

    In my data I have Pinnacle as high value/low fees through to Bet365 / Ladbrokes /Bovada with small fees, BetFred / BetOnline with more fees and PaddyPower at highest at fees (and low value).

    If others have collected data over months and years / and have raw payout value and FTD, then they can determine the average payout value per player. If the sites are basically the same, and the source of the players is from the same affiliate website, then you can detect changes in value and potential likelihood of fees.

    SO :
    - Does anyone else have mass data to share?
    - Or is this just an unfounded witch hunt with nothing more than anecdotal data about a handful of players?

    Do you find the same value distribution? Or something different?
    Last edited by TheGooner; 1 November 2016 at 11:28 pm. Reason: Issued a challenge to affiliate - put up some numbers - show how fees affect you.

  6. #44
    Syndicate is offline Public Member
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    Thanks for taking the time to explain what's happening in more depth!

    Luckily for us Pinnacle are our main beneficiary, but that's because they fit into our business module and we have individuals churning millions per month.

    I suppose that leads to a side question. Are Pinnacle affiliates taking the % on turnover or position taking?.

    For us the latter would be difficult, since many of our customers are professionals. However, i'm guessing the opposite is true for the bigger affiliates, because you have a lot more leisure players?

    How would William Hill fit into your list - i know they have bad name and i wouldn't dream of promoting them. It's just that curiosity killed the cat!!

    What do you consider the best strategy going forward? I should imagine that a long standing affiliate will find it hard to cut the umbilical chord, although at some stage pride takes over!

    Looking again at those numbers you put up suggests it's better to concentrate on working with a few. However, if you do that the variety pack for visitors becomes small. That would be the catch 22 or dilemma for most, finding the balancing act!

    I guess more affirmative contracts could be part of the answer, or anything that would give a legal standing to challenge your rights!

    Quote Originally Posted by TheGooner View Post
    Here is what I can contribute to the discussion.

    We maintain monthly figures on all partners and have all sorts of financial numbers and click ratios.

    Of course we can't really tell what fees are involved or being deducted (*) because we don't have all the useful columns like fees, charges or even withdrawals, however, I find that the BEST indicator of a fair partnership is payment per First Time Depositor (FTD) when taken over a period of 12 months or more.

    Not surprisingly, the best sportsbook for returning value per FTD is Pinnacle who offer no bonuses to players and simply compete on being the best odds. We have 5 mainstream UK groups, and two North American facing groups that we promote too.

    Overall these EIGHT sportsbook / casino / poker groups we rank them out of 10 for value this way :
    Pinnacle (10)
    Bet365 ( 8 )
    Ladbrokes (7)
    Bovada (6)
    BetVictor (4)
    BetFred (3)
    BetOnline (3)
    PaddyPower (1)

    Yes, a player at Pinnacle sports is worth 10x what a player is at PaddyPower on average. Now this could be for a lot of reasons such as bonus policy, type of player attracted, and just bad luck, but these are stats over 36 months and over 100 actives at each site ... so I think that they are representative of expected returns.

    -----------------

    And responding to deposit ratios - you need to also allow for ease of access that UK bookmakers provide customers - e-wallets, debit cards, unlimited withdrawals etc, which mean that players frequently deposit play and withdraw in the same session.

    Compare that to (say) Pinnacle that allow one FREE withdrawal and you will understand why the deposit churn is much lower at non-UK sites.

    So at North American sites we tend to see Net-Rev at around 40% of deposits, at United Kingdom sites Net-Rev is about 20% of deposits almost across the board except Paddy Power - where it is about 8% ??! (fees again?)

    ----------------

    (*ahem*) Well we do have one insight into fees

    Once PaddyPower mistakenly opened up their fees column after a system update for 24 hours and we captured information for a six month period that showed the 105K gross revenue was reduced by 90K of various fees to just 15K net revenue.

  7. #45
    stgeorge is offline Private Member
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    Great comments all round.

    The only way to do this is a coordinated, concerted effort. Someone needs to put their hand up to be the project manager or this will go nowhere. As affiliates we are notoriously poor at joint projects.

    Unfortunately I cannot give this the time it would deserve. Right now just is not good timing for me. I really hope that someone will put their hand up.

    Maybe we can ask the GPWA to take the coordination role?

    Here's a loose plan though.

    1. Agree the objectives in an open forum, with a time limit. Majority vote rules. The goals is to audit fees and treatment of the bonus. Nothing else.
    2. Agree the target program list based on an open vote. I would suggest something like everyone can name the top 20 programs they want to see audited. The project then gets limited to the top 30 voted programs (or some agreed number).
    3. Call for interested parties who are willing to participate in the actual audit. Set up a workspace in Google docs or such.
    4. Create a program roster, i.e who will sign up "fresh" affiliate accounts
    5. Create a player roster, i.e. who is going to sign up as players, make a deposit, take the bonus and lose the money.

    The mechanics are simple. Create a shared Google doc which records the login details, tracker URL's, time stamps, player details, bonus process, NGR etc.

    I would also suggest that those who actively participate can then vote on if, how and through what mechanism this information gets released, if at all. If you don't participate you don't have a say.

    Success or failure will depend on:
    1. Limiting the scope and don't allow it to creep
    2. Follow through by everyone who commits to participating.
    3. Sticking to a protocol of how this information is ato be shared (i.e. everyone running off to their favorite AM with the data will create a shitstorm which I for one am not advocating or interested in being part of).

    Thinking aloud here. Thoughts?

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  9. #46
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    SO :
    - Does anyone else have mass data to share?
    - Or is this just an unfounded witch hunt with nothing more than anecdotal data about a handful of players?

    Do you find the same value distribution? Or something different?
    For me highest value have players of 5dimes and Bovada, but conversions are much worse than by Bet365 and Unibet (Unibet is the most underrated sportsbook of this forum, in October they tie for my 2nd highest overall revenue and I started to promote them just short time ago, so it is not just some remark on side).

    Pinnacle is something that sits aside (btw they have UK licence from 2017 now for sure thank god). I have promoted them as the only bookie separately for gambling pros on hot/cold and on rev. share for general public. For the savvy bettors there is no better bookie by far, because they are the only bookie that does not limit players (even the asian bookies [with **** affiliate programs] limited for example me when I was bettor).

    For regular bettors they are not good though. The player value is high. Their stats are accurate that I want to cry from that (I know they retagged a player after he closed an account in one currency and opened in another without affiliate cookie!). But the conversions for normal traffic is so low, that sadly I can not put Pinnacle as high as I wish there.

    Another tip for US traffic and only for guys that have the skilled bettors that were thrown away from bovada or even 5dimes, Bookmaker etc. Try Nitrogensports. I am 99% sure they copy Pinancle lines and substract 1 or 2 cents from lines. They copy also hot/cold affiliate structure. They are simply a bitcoin agent of Pinnacle for USA (probably not owned by Pinnacle).
    We are all bloodsucking ticks, hungry, devious
    each one latched on to the ass of the previous
    when the last and the first latch on it can be shown
    ass-blood sucked by the first from the last is his own

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  11. #47
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    In the end, the advertised revenue share or even measured effective revenue share through an audit don't matter.

    The only thing that matters is the life-time value of a click you send to an affiliate program. The higher, the better. FTDs conversion ratio is not relevant because one program might have a high conversion rate, but have a low rev. share and deduct bonus and costs, so that a single player isn't worth a lot anymore.

    Now it isn't easy to calculate the life-time value of a click of course, especially on affiliate websites where clicks come from casino rankings, banners and more sources with different values per click. You have to find a traffic source where the clicks are comparable. So you might want to email your list the same email and promote four different casinos to 25% of your subscribers each, using a new tracker. Or you could add a popup and rotate 4 different casinos on it.

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  13. #48
    Aeternus is offline Public Member
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    I just talked to a an affiliate manager of a well known brand using Income Access and he told me that the bonus column in IA can be misleading as it also includes "admin fee".

    Sounds a bit strange to me, but it very well could be the case I suppose. Maybe someone else got some info, or could talk a manager they know to shed some more light on this?

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  15. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeternus View Post
    I just talked to a an affiliate manager of a well known brand using Income Access and he told me that the bonus column in IA can be misleading as it also includes "admin fee".

    Sounds a bit strange to me, but it very well could be the case I suppose. Maybe someone else got some info, or could talk a manager they know to shed some more light on this?

    So What's the column that says admin fee for then? and then costs? then bonus etc etc...

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  17. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeternus View Post
    I just talked to a an affiliate manager of a well known brand using Income Access and he told me that the bonus column in IA can be misleading as it also includes "admin fee".
    Not convinced that's right personally, I think the admin fees are deducted before you see the net revenue number. On IA programs where you can see deposits it's fairly easy to do the maths if you have a few players - for instance looking at one program today I can see a lot of 10 deposits and 8.40 net revenue figures; likewise 5 deposits and 4.20 net revenue. On that program I'd deduce that the admin fee is 16% given that this pattern repeats itself day in, day out.

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  19. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeternus View Post
    I just talked to a an affiliate manager of a well known brand using Income Access and he told me that the bonus column in IA can be misleading as it also includes "admin fee".

    Sounds a bit strange to me, but it very well could be the case I suppose. Maybe someone else got some info, or could talk a manager they know to shed some more light on this?
    It's clear that some IA programs include an admin fee in the "Manual Adjustments" column of the detailed earnings report.

    Just do a daily report for a month and almost every negative day has a positive adjustment (ie money back).
    Of course there are other bonuses in there but some programs appear to take an almost automatic 30-40% cut off the top.

    UPDATE :
    After manipulating my data for BetVictor stats source from IA in a spreadsheet - I can confirm that I found 7 days over a 3 month period that had no deposits, which is useful because clearly deposits might confuse adjustments.

    On EACH of those 7 days I found that the manual adjustment was EXACTLY 25% of what the gross revenue figure would be.
    This included 2 days with a negative result - so the manual adjustment was a positive number.

    My conclusion is the BetVictor take an automatic 25% off the top of revenue in undisclosed fees.
    Last edited by TheGooner; 3 November 2016 at 4:30 pm. Reason: UPDATE : Confirmed manual fee

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  21. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGooner View Post
    It's clear that some IA programs include an admin fee in the "Manual Adjustments" column of the detailed earnings report.

    Just do a daily report for a month and almost every negative day has a positive adjustment (ie money back).
    Of course there are other bonuses in there but some programs appear to take an almost automatic 30-40% cut off the top.

    UPDATE :
    After manipulating my data for BetVictor stats source from IA in a spreadsheet - I can confirm that I found 7 days over a 3 month period that had no deposits, which is useful because clearly deposits might confuse adjustments.

    On EACH of those 7 days I found that the manual adjustment was EXACTLY 25% of what the gross revenue figure would be.
    This included 2 days with a negative result - so the manual adjustment was a positive number.

    My conclusion is the BetVictor take an automatic 25% off the top of revenue in undisclosed fees.
    Any chance you could tell me how you did your workings out and I'll try and do some on IA programs at my end.

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  23. #53
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    Been reading this thread with interest even though I don't have the figures to contribute at the moment, my numbers are all small so would be purely anecdotal. Having said this, everything in my Bet Victor account points to exactly 25% manual adjustments as you have seen.


    Quote Originally Posted by TheGooner View Post
    It's clear that some IA programs include an admin fee in the "Manual Adjustments" column of the detailed earnings report.

    Just do a daily report for a month and almost every negative day has a positive adjustment (ie money back).
    Of course there are other bonuses in there but some programs appear to take an almost automatic 30-40% cut off the top.

    UPDATE :
    After manipulating my data for BetVictor stats source from IA in a spreadsheet - I can confirm that I found 7 days over a 3 month period that had no deposits, which is useful because clearly deposits might confuse adjustments.

    On EACH of those 7 days I found that the manual adjustment was EXACTLY 25% of what the gross revenue figure would be.
    This included 2 days with a negative result - so the manual adjustment was a positive number.

    My conclusion is the BetVictor take an automatic 25% off the top of revenue in undisclosed fees.

  24. #54
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    one thing that is all mutual and all agreed, we all feel like we are being shafted but in different ways, certain software seems to top out more than others.. I know that there are some serious affiliates amongst us including the silent ones, it's about time scoundrels are cut and honest programs praised, this has gone on way to long and quite a few wont speak up in fear of losing that extra 10k per month which should in fact be 40-50k

  25. #55
    GCG
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    I just hate those player cash incentives, multiple $100-$1000 fake money just another way to shave your commissions.

    I have seen this with Starpartner and Fortune Affiliates.

  26. #56
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    Nektan affiliates - IA software

    Current promotions :

    Chomp Casino : Dep 10 Get 60 Bonus
    Jackpot Strike : Dep 20 Get 80 Bonus

    Every time somebody deposits 10 at Chomp, we're getting done 120 bonus deduction.

    Every time somebody deposits 20 at Jackpot Strike, we're getting done 160 bonus deduction.

    Blatantly double dipping the bonuses, queried it but no response yet.

  27. #57
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    iGame:

    I got a gross revenue of about 350, net revenue after bonus costs, costs and admin fee (IA, ofc) is about 85. Commission is 17, which is not even 5% of the net revenue. I'd better promote WH.

  28. #58
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    That's the thing with regulation, their is another hand in the pie. The gaming affiliate module is very different to other affiliate programs, because governments are over greedy!!


    Quote Originally Posted by Renee View Post
    It's not just affiliates seeing this drop, it seems to be across the board. The new UK software allows better responsible gaming options for the player like setting deposit limits and self exclusion within a click. IMO this is the reason for the drop. As a side note, before DK was regulated it was a highly profitable market. After regulation, not so much.



    For the programs who don't deduct any fees (eg. us) these numbers are legit.

  29. #59
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    One bookie I've just looked at, I looked at one customer this month who has done just 1 bet:

    Deposits: 10,000
    Stake: 9,000
    Bets: 1
    Gross Revenue: 6,519.33
    Net Revenue: 6,519.33
    % Commission: 2,281.77

    Now that interests me. Because he stakes 9,000 on one bet, but gross revenue was 6,519.33.

    Does he lose the whole amount and the missing amount of 2,480.67 is deductions at 27.56% of gross revenue? Or does he lose an each way bet, therefore winning some of his stake back? I guess I'll never know, I'm more inclined to think it's deductions as I have other examples of other customers where it looks similar.

  30. #60
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    Deposits: 6,513.70
    Bonus: -1,446.49 (?)
    Gross Revenue: -4,067.83
    Net Revenue: -5,514.32


    ...enough?

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