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  1. #61
    RacingJim is offline Public Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by RacingJim View Post
    One bookie I've just looked at, I looked at one customer this month who has done just 1 bet:

    Deposits: 10,000
    Stake: 9,000
    Bets: 1
    Gross Revenue: 6,519.33
    Net Revenue: 6,519.33
    % Commission: 2,281.77

    Now that interests me. Because he stakes 9,000 on one bet, but gross revenue was 6,519.33.

    Does he lose the whole amount and the missing amount of 2,480.67 is deductions at 27.56% of gross revenue? Or does he lose an each way bet, therefore winning some of his stake back? I guess I'll never know, I'm more inclined to think it's deductions as I have other examples of other customers where it looks similar.
    I'm going to look at this more fully, as I think the 27.56% figure is coming up each time, therefore suggesting it IS a deduction percentage at this bookie.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by RacingJim View Post
    I'm going to look at this more fully, as I think the 27.56% figure is coming up each time, therefore suggesting it IS a deduction percentage at this bookie.
    Could be point of consumption tax which couldn't be classed as gross revenue.. actually 2,281 comms from 9k sounds about right considering how many fingers are in the pie with certain other programs. there are quite a few programs that would of given you 600 euros and tell you that your on 40% comms "5% if you dont give top spots" lol

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by RacingJim View Post
    I'm going to look at this more fully, as I think the 27.56% figure is coming up each time, therefore suggesting it IS a deduction percentage at this bookie.
    You could also perform the same exercise on a group of customers pre December 2014 and see what percentage deduction that infers. From what I’ve seen the difference is 15% more due to POCT (I assume) and then some additional random number in a few cases.

  4. #64
    bettingspin is offline Private Member
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    I agree we should take a coordinated approach or maybe ask collectively GPWA to take forward the matter for us. In my view programmes are free to deduct even 99% as long as they are TRANSPARENT. Every fee has to be transparent not reason why not.

    We don't work with Pinnacle but we do work with Bet365 and below is the player value we see over 3 years of all the bookmakers we work with. Not with all we work from 3 years but the majority is. The below excludes all CPA and any fixed fee it is based on Commission from RevShare alone.


    Players Profitability Av Player Value
    Winner 9.14
    Betfred 22.87
    William Hill 27.19
    Bet365 82.51
    Paddy Power 4.30
    SkyBet 15.05
    Betfair 9.41
    Coral 4.86
    BetVictor 35.24
    Boyle 11.02
    Ladbrokes 19.55
    10Bet 9.08
    Betway 34.17
    BetBright 6.86
    888Sport 6.50
    Matchbook 6.44
    Bwin 13.41
    Come On 1.43

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  6. #65
    bfb2016 is offline Private Member
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    Interesting stats, any ideas what Paddy Power are deducting? I get the feeling they are making huge deductions

  7. #66
    Sportster_Alex is offline Former AM
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    May I put my voice here? The thread seems to be extremely interesting for affiliates and almost no operator has given his voice.

    Recently I decided to give a good promotion for GPWA members, met some negative feedback from wonderpunter right away I may assume that this question has become critical and sometimes painful. Well, I was an affiliate before, time has come and I launched my own casino product. And believe it or not, I came up with an idea of making it both friendly to customers and transparent to affiliates. So what do you, affiliates, need for transparency? Deposit sum and #? Dates? Deductions and fees which have to be paid by an operator before calculating your revenue? What if an operator decides to play fair, become transparent and calculate affiliates earnings without extra costs, admin fees, royalties, and even transaction fees? Would you believe it or not? How bad are the things, in other words?

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  9. #67
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    How bad are the things, in other words?
    Bad.

    Just my 2 cents.

    The quality of affiliate program is correlated with quality of the product. It is far from 100% correlation, but it is very strong.

    I can trust to certain operator, but it is mostly trust to the owners/management. If there is no clear signal that they want to continue with the business, the trust is from me much smaller. This is my major concern by otherwise good euro bookies and programs like Unibet and Tipico. I was ****** up by Nordicbet badly, also by 10bets, I expect the same by Pinnacle. So if you have some exit plans, it is a huge minus. On the other side if you transparently say that you will not sell for any amount (and you are honest in all other ways), that is a huge plus for me. For example 25% rev share here easily beats 60%.
    We are all bloodsucking ticks, hungry, devious
    each one latched on to the ass of the previous
    when the last and the first latch on it can be shown
    ass-blood sucked by the first from the last is his own

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  11. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sportster_Alex View Post
    How bad are the things, in other words?
    Bad.

    However, if you would start being honest and telling affiliates you're deducting the bonus once, sheep would still promote the popular brand that deducts the bonus twice but is hiding it. You'd be the bad guy.

    It's a popularity contest, and if you'd start doing things the honest way, very very few affiliates would appreciate it, and you'd be surprised why you have so few affiliates while so many promote a brand that's evil as hell but has a huge stand on LAC. You'd be out of business within a year.

    So don't bother. Shave them and scam them. Introduce quotas. Change T&C retroactively. Hire hot girls who scan your badge. Send spam. Cold call on Skype. Rent a Ferrari and drive affiliate around before you steal his players.

    Apparently that's what the affliates enjoy, despite the occasional rant.

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  13. #69
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    Who is driving affiliates around in a Ferrari?

  14. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by casaffiliate View Post
    Who is driving affiliates around in a Ferrari?
    There was one at the entrace to LAC if I recemember. No idea who's it was as it seemed abandonded.

  15. #71
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    Driving affiliates around in a Ferrari


  16. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by casaffiliate View Post
    Who is driving affiliates around in a Ferrari?
    One of the binary options brands, didn't remember the name.

    It's a rented Ferrari and a rented Lambo. Not theirs. Rented for the day.

  17. #73
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    Heard this years ago, from seperate sources. Been told it a few times since.
    Final commission can be 2x to 3x less, because of bogus deductions.

    Maybe why affiliates at Videoslots aren't making anything
    Last edited by AussieDave; 18 February 2017 at 5:25 pm. Reason: spelling mistake

  18. #74
    freebetking is offline Private Member
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    is there anybody who makes decent money out of thrills affiliates and associated brands, we make buttons, had a couple of good players who mysteriously stopped playing on the last day of the month, they have such good products, but yet you can't see deposits in the affiliate backend and the player longevity seems restricted to the month they sign up, at least if they are a half decent player!

    Anybody? i'm not holding my breathe!

  19. #75
    LukeC is offline Non-sponsor Affiliate Program
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    I don't know why it is not more common for affiliate programmes to publicise more of their deductions. I am currently working on the launch of Sun Bets' affiliate programme - a UK bookmaker & casino. Their strategy is to make accurate deductions based on their true costs. There's actually nothing related to deductions that they consider particularly commercially sensitive - which is what operators usually hide behind. Unfortunately, the sharing of product fees are generally prohibited by NDAs with suppliers. So I am able to give an idea of deductions that operators actually face - in the UK market.

    The deductions that they are making are:
    * General Betting Duty / Remote Gaming Duty (15% of Gross Profit)
    * Horse Racing Levy (10.8% of Horse Racing Gross Profit)
    * Product Fees (e.g variable progressive jackpot contributions, gaming and software fees)
    * Bonus Bet Costs (Variable - the redeemed bonus costs i.e. if a user gets a 10 free bet and loses, no deduction, if they win 20, 20 deduction)
    * Electronic Payment Fees (Between 0.04 and 1.30 per deposit/withdrawal)
    * ID verification fee on new registrations (0.10)
    Head of Affiliates at Digital Fuel

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  21. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by LukeC View Post
    There's actually nothing related to deductions that they consider particularly commercially sensitive - which is what operators usually hide behind.
    There's no legit reason why a program can't disclose most of the player data to partners. Any AM who tells you otherwise, it's just feeding you more of the same Bull$hit. Apart from Remote taxes, we (seasoned affiliates) never had all these deduction years ago. There's a lot of shady deductions these days. And, by not displaying this data, some programs have become crooks, and are stealing the rightful commissions of affiliates.

    But they get away with being crooked, because not too many hold them accountable. And, those that do, are usually lined-up-and-shot.
    Last edited by AussieDave; 19 February 2017 at 2:24 am.

  22. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by LukeC View Post
    The deductions that they are making are:
    * General Betting Duty / Remote Gaming Duty (15% of Gross Profit)
    * Horse Racing Levy (10.8% of Horse Racing Gross Profit)
    * Product Fees (e.g variable progressive jackpot contributions, gaming and software fees)
    * Bonus Bet Costs (Variable - the redeemed bonus costs i.e. if a user gets a 10 free bet and loses, no deduction, if they win 20, 20 deduction)
    * Electronic Payment Fees (Between 0.04 and 1.30 per deposit/withdrawal)
    * ID verification fee on new registrations (0.10)
    Out of interest Luke, does every affiliate get the same blended % deduction based on the average cost to Sun Bets of these deductions listed? So if I send no horse racing customers for instance, am I effectively subsidising those affiliates who have a higher % of horse racing transactions?

  23. #78
    RacingJim is offline Public Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by LukeC View Post
    * Bonus Bet Costs (Variable - the redeemed bonus costs i.e. if a user gets a 10 free bet and loses, no deduction, if they win 20, 20 deduction)
    But then don't they have to bet through the bonus 8 million times before it becomes 'real' withdrawable money? How is this reflected in terms of the affiliate side of things?

    The operator is getting the 10 real money up front off the customer and then magicking 10 out of thin air for the bonus a la the banking system. But this is put onto the affiliate in the system as a real money 20 deduction?

    Players often lose these bonuses after 'x' amount of time if they haven't met certain requirements. If this happens does the affiliate see a 10 refund onto their account? I'm very much interested in how these bonuses affect the affiliate end of things and whether they are ultimately being done fairly or not as per the thread title.

    At the end of it all, I see it as a way of the company making a tenner and not giving any to the affiliate, if it's done in a certain way.

  24. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by LukeC View Post
    Unfortunately, the sharing of product fees are generally prohibited by NDAs with suppliers.
    It's very much an open secret that product fees for casino games are anywhere between 12% - 25%. This was discussed on the first pages of this thread.

  25. #80
    LukeC is offline Non-sponsor Affiliate Program
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    Quote Originally Posted by happyfeet View Post
    There's no legit reason why a program can't disclose most of the player data to partners. Any AM who tells you otherwise, it's just feeding you more of the same Bull$hit. Apart from Remote taxes, we (seasoned affiliates) never had all these deduction years ago. There's a lot of shady deductions these days. And, by not displaying this data, some programs have become crooks, and are stealing the rightful commissions of affiliates.

    But they get away with being crooked, because not too many hold them accountable. And, those that do, are usually lined-up-and-shot.
    I agree with you. Programmes should not be sharing any PII, but providing activity data in anonymised form (e.g. linking it to a customer ID not a username) or aggregating it is fine. I would think the main reason that legitimate programmes do not, is that they do not bring individual bet data into their affiliate platform - and they aren't ever going to justify the dev work to do it given they already have a programme that has been running for years. Changing the data transfer methodology would risk errors.

    In many firms the affiliate managers don't have access to that data elsewhere. Where they do, he reason they don't discuss it is because AM's end up getting huge amounts of unnecessary questions by affiliates (generally smaller affiliates) who are interested in the player data for no reason other than they want to cheer against the other side of the customers' bets (I know someone worked on a programme that did share that kind of data for a while). But in casino, for example, there is no reason not to provide affiliates with a split of turnover per game or per game category (as long as the operator sets up their data transfer in a way that supports it). If I've missed the point as to what player data, it'd be good to know.

    Whether you had the deductions or not years ago - or whether you agree with whether they should be passed on to affiliates - ultimately isn't really relevant though - those are an example of actual deductions, which are the actual costs that operators are incurring in the UK market in 2017. I hope it gives you a baseline so you can then work out which operators are charging you unreasonable deductions over and above that - or even if some operators are eating some of the costs and charging you less.

    Quote Originally Posted by golfbettingsystem View Post
    Out of interest Luke, does every affiliate get the same blended % deduction based on the average cost to Sun Bets of these deductions listed? So if I send no horse racing customers for instance, am I effectively subsidising those affiliates who have a higher % of horse racing transactions?
    No, Sun Bets pass through data per sport to the affiliate platform so deduct Horse Racing Levy from the Total Horse Racing Gross Profit.

    I would expect most affiliate programmes do not do this as they don't pass through such granular data to their affiliate platform, so do blend a % deduction in to account for it.



    Quote Originally Posted by RacingJim View Post
    But then don't they have to bet through the bonus 8 million times before it becomes 'real' withdrawable money? How is this reflected in terms of the affiliate side of things?

    The operator is getting the 10 real money up front off the customer and then magicking 10 out of thin air for the bonus a la the banking system. But this is put onto the affiliate in the system as a real money 20 deduction?

    Players often lose these bonuses after 'x' amount of time if they haven't met certain requirements. If this happens does the affiliate see a 10 refund onto their account? I'm very much interested in how these bonuses affect the affiliate end of things and whether they are ultimately being done fairly or not as per the thread title.

    At the end of it all, I see it as a way of the company making a tenner and not giving any to the affiliate, if it's done in a certain way.
    Sun Bets don't deduct 10 when the customer is given the hypothetical 10 free bet. There was no getting 10 real money up front in my example. They just deduct the winnings from the bonus at the point it is turned in to cash.

    Another example, a casino welcome bonus, where the customer deposits 100 and get's a 100 bonus that has to be wagered 35x.
    a) The customer loses both the bonus and initial 100. Gross Revenue is 100. Bonus cost is 0. Net Revenue is 100 (ignoring all other fees)
    b) The customer plays through the bonus and wins 50 that becomes withdrawable cash. Gross Revenue is 0. Bonus cost is 50. Net Revenue is negative 50 (ignoring all other fees).
    c) Case b happens, but then the customer loses his 150 cash that was sat in his account. Gross Revenue is 150. Bonus cost is 50. Net Revenue is 100 (ignoring all other fees)

    Not all operators act in this way, of course, and I expect your scenario does happen with more unscrupulous operators.

    Quote Originally Posted by casaffiliate View Post
    It's very much an open secret that product fees for casino games are anywhere between 12% - 25%. This was discussed on the first pages of this thread.
    I don't think any non-white label operator in the UK market is paying product fees for casino games anywhere near 25% - but ultimately I'm not allowed to tell you actual fees, even though I would like to.
    Head of Affiliates at Digital Fuel

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