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  1. #81
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    In many firms the affiliate managers don't have access to that data elsewhere. Where they do, he reason they don't discuss it is because AM's end up getting huge amounts of unnecessary questions by affiliates (generally smaller affiliates) who are interested in the player data for no reason other than they want to cheer against the other side of the customers' bets (I know someone worked on a programme that did share that kind of data for a while). But in casino, for example, there is no reason not to provide affiliates with a split of turnover per game or per game category (as long as the operator sets up their data transfer in a way that supports it). If I've missed the point as to what player data, it'd be good to know.
    If the only reason for not sharing bets is only to avoid stupid questions from small affiliates, then it is a weak argument.
    To share the bets and positions - even upfront - is the best what the affiliate program can do. Few months ago I started with BetDSI. Many regs, much less depositors. Some starting to bet big. But no revenue. However because they do share actual betting data I can see everything is ok and I am not dropping them, which is something I would do a long time ago otherwise. The players are simply winning, I can see it and that is it.
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  2. #82
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    White labels do pay something like 15% for the eldest MG-slots up to 23% for NetEnt games. Maybe some have better deals, maybe some have worse deals.

    Most operators do not deduct the complete bonus, but do deduct the costs. In my opinion, it's not wrong to deduct real costs. The thing is sharing the profit, not the gross turnover. But... things should be completely transparent. Many operators are lacking transparency.

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  4. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sherlock View Post
    If the only reason for not sharing bets is only to avoid stupid questions from small affiliates, then it is a weak argument.
    To share the bets and positions - even upfront - is the best what the affiliate program can do. Few months ago I started with BetDSI. Many regs, much less depositors. Some starting to bet big. But no revenue. However because they do share actual betting data I can see everything is ok and I am not dropping them, which is something I would do a long time ago otherwise. The players are simply winning, I can see it and that is it.
    That's not anywhere near the only or main reason. You missed a paragraph of my response where I said the data isn't passed into affiliate systems. I'm not sure if it is even possible to pass individual bet data into most major affiliate softwares - and where it is, it is a huge amount of work to do it.
    Number 2 reason is that then the AMs don't have access to betting data, so if you ask them, they can't respond.
    Number 3, is that some AMs won't want to get into a never ending cycle of question about customer activity. All of a sudden affiliates want to know every bet a customer is making, then they aren't happy they are winning and want to become the risk team.

    I don't actually see any benefit to affiliates, in terms of being able to do their jobs (acquiring new customers more efficiently), in showing them each individual bet made by customers. I do see benefit in telling them their customers total stake + total revenues on Horse Racing vs Soccer vs Tennis vs Golf etc., Blackjack vs Roulette vs Slots. Which is something in this case, I am working towards.
    Head of Affiliates at Digital Fuel

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  6. #84
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    I don't actually see any benefit to affiliates
    Well, you are not an affiliate, so you do not see a benefit. I trust you that you really do not see it, even when I just wrote the reason. The reson is trust, because trust is everything. Again: you are probably a honest, so it is just a lot of hassles if you imagine it. But from the other side it is very different. Where I can see the bets, I am asking less actually, because I have no doubts. I am not a small affiliate and for me it is exactly as I am writing it: Far the best solution is to show bets upfront.
    Btw. Always when I asked about some huge minus I got answer from AM and they told me what bet it was... on different platforms that. Talking about the biggest companies like Bet365, Unibet or Bovada, where - theoretically - the affiliate department has to be farthest from bookmaking. But even there they have the data.

    The data can be relatively easily accessed outside of nonelastic affiliate systems. Just a bit of anonymization, export and that is it. It is doable. Nobody needs here perfect UX.

    Btw. if I see the bets I do not care about showing the admin fees, taxes or metodology of those.
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  7. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sherlock View Post
    Well, you are not an affiliate, so you do not see a benefit. I trust you that you really do not see it, even when I just wrote the reason. The reson is trust, because trust is everything. Again: you are probably a honest, so it is just a lot of hassles if you imagine it. But from the other side it is very different. Where I can see the bets, I am asking less actually, because I have no doubts. I am not a small affiliate and for me it is exactly as I am writing it: Far the best solution is to show bets upfront.
    Btw. Always when I asked about some huge minus I got answer from AM and they told me what bet it was... on different platforms that. Talking about the biggest companies like Bet365, Unibet or Bovada, where - theoretically - the affiliate department has to be farthest from bookmaking. But even there they have the data.

    The data can be relatively easily accessed outside of nonelastic affiliate systems. Just a bit of anonymization, export and that is it. It is doable. Nobody needs here perfect UX.

    Btw. if I see the bets I do not care about showing the admin fees, taxes or metodology of those.
    I can see that, but what I'm missing is how showing you the bets does helps explain that the programme isn't shaving you with fees?

    As far as I'm aware, there isn't much distrust from affiliates for certain bets to randomly go missing. Even if you are shown the bets, you can be screwed on deductions.

    If you asked me as an AM for bet data - and there was an appropriate reason, like a customer has put you into a reasonable negative, I would find out for you. It sounded like you want the data in the affiliate platform, which is the part that is problematic. Like at least bet365 from that list, in this role as the AM I don't have access to instantly see every bet placed by every customer. But yes, it can be found out by asking someone else within the business. Personally, I wouldn't even have a problem (pending how possible it is from a tech standpoint) to automate a .csv report of all bets from the previous day, for an affiliate's customers, being sent to the affiliate. That's a very different question to displaying the data to everyone in an affiliate platform.
    Head of Affiliates at Digital Fuel

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  9. #86
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    When I see all the bets, then the only way to screw me is - as you say - randomly missing (big&losing) bets. I believe that crowdwatching would easily prevent that.

    So if we expect not to have missing bets, then the only way are the deductions as you said. But then the deductions are transparent, unlike at Paddypower or Betsson group. For me the problem are not deductions, but because I really do not understand the base from which the deductions are being made and how. If I have the raw data, then it is easy. Also is easy to do cross platform comparison.

    Yes, the csv export or something close (like graded bets and open bets generated on request, if it is about sportsbook) to that as you say would be very nice compromise. I am afraid it will not happen.
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  11. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by LukeC View Post
    I would think the main reason that legitimate programmes do not, is that they do not bring individual bet data into their affiliate platform
    I never said anything about expecting "individual bet data". That would be overkill (imo). What I believe is nothing short of reasonable, and would be acceptably transparent, is to display the following:


    • Deposits
    • Bonuses (and VIP incentives)
    • Jackpot Fees
    • Other deductions (admin fees etc)
    • Withdrawals


    There's a thing called trust, which, affiliates have to place 100% trust, into any program they partner with.

    What does partner actually mean?
    A person who takes part in an undertaking with another or others, especially in a business or firm with shared risks and profits.

    With most aff programs, important key metrics are missing. Because of this missing data, we're quasi-partners at best. But worse, without this data, affiliates are running blind. I would think, common sense would prevail. Meaning, if any program didn't want their AM's tied up with affiliate questions about Rev-Share, etc., then showing this data would be a no brainer.

    Not showing it, begs the question, what are they hiding???!!!
    Last edited by AussieDave; 19 February 2017 at 7:14 pm. Reason: spelling mistakes

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  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by happyfeet View Post
    I never said anything about expecting "individual bet data". That would be overkill (imo). What I believe is nothing short of reasonable, and would be acceptably transparent, is to display the following:
    Sorry, these are things I would expect as standard - I thought you meant going further than that with your comment re player data. I've no idea why legitimate programmes don't display these things.
    Head of Affiliates at Digital Fuel

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    Quote Originally Posted by LukeC View Post
    Sorry, these are things I would expect as standard - I thought you meant going further than that with your comment re player data. I've no idea why legitimate programmes don't display these things.
    No need for apologies. Misunderstandings are a given casualty of this medium

    Most programs provide basic data. But it's the data that's left-out. EG, metrics validating why I've had $20K in deposits, and only earned $300 in commission. Reiterating, affiliates wear 100% trust, in partnerships, with aff programs.

    If we're to walk around scratching our collective affiliate heads wondering how things got to be this way, then we too must wear a portion of accountability. Because we've allowed this sh*t to happen. Can we as a collective group force positive change? Yes.

    All too often I read statements like, without the super-affiliates on our side, we can't change jack. My argument to that is, 10,000 smaller affiliates delievering a combined total of 100K (probably a lot more) in NDP's per month, is nothing to sneeze at. Seems the major road block here to encourage that change in affiliate programs, isn't about the size of each individual affiliate, but the willingness of each individual affiliate to stand shoulder to shoulder next to his/her peers, and say in a collective voice, enough is enough.

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  16. #90
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    Sorry, but this is unreal and naive. Dream like democracy or communism. The power is on the side of affiliate operators and with bigger and bigger amount of future revenue share with which we are literally held hostage there is nothing that can be done.

    Millions of people can always in theory to overrun few corrupted politicians; but in fact they always need some act of god to really grasp the power. It is the same here. The key issue here is that we never had control of affiliate platforms and operators will never allow it. Small affiliates will never join. And even big affiliates, where some generate more than operators, still have not enough power to force them into change of platform.

    Whole world is about power. We do not have it. Let's face it rather than living in dreams. The battle with fully liensed operators that hide under the umbrella of state regulation is lost. On the other hand the stats and payouts of "illegal" bookies (both the old US offshore and new bitcoin) are much more promising. The worst thing one can do is to waste energy on battles that are lost long time ago.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sherlock View Post
    Whole world is about power. We do not have it. Let's face it rather than living in dreams. The battle with fully liensed operators that hide under the umbrella of state regulation is lost. On the other hand the stats and payouts of "illegal" bookies (both the old US offshore and new bitcoin) are much more promising. The worst thing one can do is to waste energy on battles that are lost long time ago.
    End of the day, with any affiliate marketing or network marketing or any other type of setup like this, WE have not a lot of power other than our own brand power and our own website traffic. Outside of that we control nothing, we don't control the important things like, customer details, customer funds etc etc.

    Our business is built fully on trust, we are basically in the hands of the operators waiting for payday each month, we have a boss in reality. But the benefits we gain from that are that we don't have to worry about the day-in day-out customer problems and enquiries and keeping a gambling operation going in very competitive times. But yeh, power-wise, we don't have much if any. If we want power we need to set up our own stellar brands where we control the purse strings and we have our own affiliates working for us, not the other way around.

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  19. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sherlock View Post
    this is unreal and naive.
    So why are you bother to post in this thread, if all hope is lost!
    Call me naive, but if your not part of the solution, then your part of the problem.

  20. #93
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    That is a good question! Indeed it would not make sense just to vomit negativity here.

    I am just saying the battle with most recent operators about tranparency is lost. No need to waste energy on that. The energy has to be used in different way:

    1. Trial, error, sharing info over and over again. 99% of all softwares might lack transparency, but it does not mean that 99% of operators are thieves or that they are close to thieves like most UK bookies. There are still operators (lead by bet365; bovada in the US; unibet on continental EU; cloudbet on pure btc; [for casinos I have no experience with but I guess for example Rewards affiliates/Renee must try to follow that path too]) that simply pay decent money even without proper stats and we should take opportunity on that. They can steal, but obviously they do not. Rather than circle jerking about something that will never happen, we should simply support them based on past results and high value of players/conversions. Both from inside with most of the traffic and outside with helping them to keep their reputation. It is obvious that those honest businesses try to play the game where they hope that their minority non-scam model will pay off, but sadly they do not understand how great would be to bring more transparency in (e.g. I still do not know why 20% of bettingpartners loses vanish and why there is nothing written about that etc.: still they are great). It is up to everyone if we go to useless conferences or skype talks with completely fake hope that somehow something will change. The energy has to be used elsewhere. Most problems of the world are unsolvable. But they must be abandoned.

    2. World is liquid. The old operators now are regulated and in the milking phase. They all make huge money, they still grow, but they are losing steam. The internet will develop, they money will develop, therefore gambling will develop as well. The change does not come from big companies, but from small ones. Maybe there is some chance to persuade 1 guy company, than giants, that the affiliate software has to be changed and hopefully the leader in 10-30 years will be the one with decent tracking. There is one big advantage on our side and it is that the new operators (in grey zones) will need our traffic. Therefore we will have more power.

    But pushing AMs of big companies is completely useless. I think many of us went to some hard and honest talks with them and after a while we heard something like: "Sorry mate. You are right. But this is a higher management decision and I can not do anything about that." The corporate culture does not function on such a level of creativity, where the employees are rewarded for bringing big ideas that would change even their own framework. They are paid for doing their job within the framework.
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  22. #94
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    Great forum thread! I guess we all feel frustrated about this issue. The biggest problem is the lack of communication. There are still things in our partnerships that we can not talk about such as the exact formula for the NGR. Those questions are almost impossible to get an answer to. That is not what a good partnership looks like.

    It is also saddening that all the AMs hands are tied. They can't do anything about it.

    Over at AGD there is a heated discussion about Videoslots and their lack of transparency and trust among many affiliates. They have been hiding almost all stats for the affiliate for a long time now with a lot of broken promises: http://www.affiliateguarddog.com/com...hy.9936/page-7

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    looks like mcbookie take 35% in fees and betvictor 25%, both on sports, go figure.

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    From Bet Victor's updated terms and conditions today:


    • Net Revenue: Gross Revenue minus the below deductions:


    • - 10% from Sports Products (+ a further 15% for UK Customers due to POCT)
    • - 35% from all other Products (+ a further 15% for UK Customers due to POCT)


    So that's -50% for other products in the UK!?

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  26. #97
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    It's not the end of the Era, I think. More than that it looks like a natural growth, both on operators and affiliates side. There are more and more brands to come, new platforms are being developed, new markets are being disrupted (and then regulated). New sources of traffic are evolving (who would think of Twitch a couple of years ago, ha?) and of course there are more affiliates to enter this bloody arena... But it doesn't seem to be the end, just some new infrastructure is required to build "healthy" relationships. Or you can call me way too optimistic

    All operators are thinking of growth and scaling, and of course cutting their expenses. The issue we discuss is related to the latter. Unfortunately not all the operators think in long-term, ruining their reputation in the very beginning. But let's look on the other side.

    Operators are dealing with hundreds of webmasters monthly, trying to find the best sources of traffic. There are 7 of 10 affiliates looking for hybrid deals, let's say 1 or 2 may start with CPA test and maybe, maybe, there will be one affiliate ready to work on revenue share basis. Are we considering negative carry over? Forget it, don't even say it out loud Nevertheless, in case you are a young operator, there is no choice left, you have to pay both CPA and revenue share for any housewife spending €10 on your product. More than that, global operators agree on the fact that it's becoming harder and harder to work with affiliates, as their demands are becoming insupportable sometimes.

    And here goes the transparency question. Here what we see from affiliates perspective (not all of them, of course):
    - Affiliates tend to think that €100 spent is equal to €100 revenue,
    - When talking about game providers revenue share, it's solely an operator's issue.
    - When an operator has to pay transaction fees, it's solely his issue.
    - When a player is losing €100 during the first month and wins €500 during the second month and blocks his account, it shouldn't be an issue of an affiliate.
    - When we talk about more strict regulations (have you seen UKGC conditions and gaming tax they collect?) it should be covered by an operator's income solely, affiliates revenue share is untouchable.

    As an operator, I'm totally positive about transparency. But who's ready to accept the real state of things? Most affiliates are not willing to work with the negative carryover, not taking the rest to the consideration. New operators are trying to feed affiliates with hot chicks, borrowed Ferraris and VIP parties. Aren't you fed up yet?

    I might add some naivety too, but I truly believe the overall infrastructure should be optimized and there are all required conditions for it. The NDA's may be signed, new ways of sharing the profit may be developed and agreed on, if both parties are ready to work on it. It should be a profit sharing, not quarreling the bread and butter.

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    From my perspective:

    Every operator claims to have a great conversion, great retention and an awesome product. Most simply don't have that. Daily new white label casinos are popping up. I get dozens of emails a day with offers to co÷perate. Why I should spend time and lose income just to try one of that 13-in-a-12 casinos of which I almost surely know that it doesn't have a great conversion, neither a great retention because it simply is not an awesome product. A lot of affiliate managers think affiliates are idiots that simply will believe that it is a great product, just because they say so. Sometimes I feel even offended if affiliate managers are asking for top exposure with below-average products.

    Besides that, many affiliates have been shafted, have had operators changing retroactively deals, programs stopping to pay, etc. That's another reason to get some money upfront.

    Perhaps I am na´ve, but if a product is really awesome, affiliates will be more than happy to promote it. Even without insane deals, because a great product with a reasonable deal will always do better that some below-average product with € 300 CPA and 60% revenue share. If there's no conversion and no retention, there's nothing to share.

    I do understand fees have to be deducted, but why not be clear about it? Many operators simply don't do that. Many of them aren't even able to explain how their NGR is calculated. Come on, what do they expect? I ask them how is the NGR calculated, they simply copy-paste their T&C, but can't explain the parameters.

    I agree the real state of things must be accepted, but at 99% of the programs, just a part of the affiliates has to accept that. I mean, if a program tells me difficult this, difficult that and I hear what deals they're making with other people... why should I blood for the losing deals they make with others?

    And last but not least: I tried sometimes to put things simply in a contract. For example calculations of the revenue share, to have it clear for put and have no discussions for example if gambling tax would increase or something (than the deduction would have been increased too). Also, something like KYC. Conclusion: most operators simply do not want to sign decent contracts. A lot of them can't or do not even want to explain who's behind the casino. Many of them are simply hiding after a white label product and we can only be guessing who's behind it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sportster_Alex View Post
    More than that, global operators agree on the fact that it's becoming harder and harder to work with affiliates, as their demands are becoming insupportable sometimes.
    Yes, it is more difficult to work with affiliates compared to 5 or 10 years ago, but not because of the reasons you stated.

    *In my opinion webmasters now have more knowledge and experience regarding how to chose the best programs to work with. Many of us have been scammed by operators back in the years. We know exactly what we want and what are our criteria to choose a program (No negative carry over, no minimum quota, transparency of stats, good conversion rate, average player lifetime value and many more).

    *Competition between iGaming operators is much higher compared to 5 or 10 years ago. Cost per acquisition is also higher on all channels (PPC, media buying, TV ads). The only chance I see for small & average size brands to continue their operations is to depend on affiliates in order to receive traffic. There are many different ways for traffic acquisition if an operator does not want to depend on affiliates - PPC with 50 gbp average per click, media buying in the thousand per month with no guarantee for results, and TV ads in the millions per campaign

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    Sportster Alex - nice to hear from the other side of the fence that 'global operators agree' affiliates are difficult to work with!

    I have never demanded any unfair deals so I don't know what others are demanding but end of the day business is business - everyone's going to fight for the best deal.

    In conclusion - this is a sometimes very corrupt, unscrupulous business, companies can and do screw affiliates every year for thousands and millions of pounds. So don't be surprised when affiliates start on the back foot with a new company with a samey product and a slimy affiliate manager trying to schmooze their way into top positions, it isn't gona work. The only thing that will work is establish a reputation and a brand, this takes investment and time. There's no easy way to make it in a saturated marketplace, but don't bloody blame the affiliates!!

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