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  1. #1
    Amateur's Avatar
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    Default The Affiliate's Side of Business

    We have never been partners, it appears, but we are independent contractors, and experienced business people. We are also adults, and don't appreciate being treated in a business relationship, as you would a child in your home.

    That is, making changes in Terms, without any consultation whatsoever.

    It appears to me:

    1 - Affiliate Programs want us to attend various conferences to meet with them and get acquainted to futher our businesses.

    while:

    2 - Assuming that if we can afford to attend these conferences at our own expense, to meet with said Affiliate Programs, we must be making a ton of money, and doing little to earn it. If we have the time to take off when we want, and the money to do so, we're getting too big a piece of the pie!!


    Or am I misinterpreting something here? It just looks like there is some backlash on the part of the affiliate programs at paying affiliates to "sit on our butts all day", playing on the computer, while someone else sweats and labors in an office all day!

    That's the impression I get. Correct me if I am wrong.

    The fact is (as has been stated over and over again!), it takes a lot of nerve to step out and make a living at this.

    Is that the problem? Are we not supposed to earn enough money doing this, to work at it fulltime??

    We spend more time and energy than you can even imagine doing what we do. I'm up at 2am to communicate with South Africa, and there are the time differences with Australia, Isle of Mann, etc. And often I go to bed at midnight, only to get back up at 2 am, and may not get back to bed until midnight (or later) again!!

    You have no idea how much time it takes, just to get new banners, give someone more space, decide on advertising, actually setting up a campaign, and spending the money to do it. Never mind, SEO, linking and all the other minute details of updating constantly. And there is no guarantee that any of it will be profitable!!

    We can only get an interested player to the site. It is then out of our hands. The casino must convert that player through an interesting homepage, tempting bonus, help in purchasing, good customer service, and the other "intangibles" that sell themselves to a player.

    And, if you are successful at recuiting profitable players, there is a constant bombardment from all the programs wanting more space, the best space. Well, everyone can't have the "best space", and it's a juggling act to decide who goes where. And the casino that is great this month, may not do so well the next month.

    So what to do? Give them another month in that slot, or move up another program? It's about maximizing your inventory, isn't it? What businesses have to do all the time. That's what we do. Giving players the best value we can, while making a profit.

    Yes, the casinos and affiliate programs must maintain a level of profitability, but so do we. Programs that change their Terms without notice, or make drastic changes, without getting any feedback, are setting themselves up for problems.

    Being the "independent" types that we have to be, it's insulting at the very least.

    If an affiliate signed up to a Program when the Terms stated "for the life of the player", or "no negative carryonvers", he probably thought he was dealing with people of integrity who meant what they said. NOT that they meant: "until it suits us to renege on the deal.."


    So, yes affiliates want to be paid when successful. We should be!! We've earned it!!

    If this post, either the content or the "tone" of voice offends anyone, feel free to say so. I won't take it personally, nor is this post meant as a personal affront. I'm saying what I think. My perceptions of current events.

    After all, Business is business.
    Amateur
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  2. #2
    OnlineCasino-Guide.com is offline Private Member
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    Well Said Amateur!

  3. #3
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  4. #4
    Ziggy is offline Private Member
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    Thanks.

    Ziggy
    www.Gamble4U.com

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    Ziggy is offline Private Member
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    As a new member, your words ring loud and clear. Thanks for putting into words how I feel.



    Ziggy
    www.Gamble4U.com

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    daweller is offline Private Member
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    Default

    Well put.
    ( wtf, I tried to sumbit that and got an error saying my message is too short )

  7. #7
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    Thumbs up

    Thanks Amateur,

    We needed to have someone state our case and you have done it beautifully

    ntaus

  8. #8
    Oneguy2nv is offline Private Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amateur
    Or am I misinterpreting something here? It just looks like there is some backlash on the part of the affiliate programs at paying affiliates to "sit on our butts all day", playing on the computer, while someone else sweats and labors in an office all day!
    Wtf makes them think I don't have an office? Ummm.... or work 70 hours per week? Or spent the time learning 7,000,000 hours of knowledge?

    Quote Originally Posted by Amateur
    You have no idea how much time it takes, just to get new banners, give someone more space, decide on advertising, actually setting up a campaign, and spending the money to do it. Never mind, SEO, linking and all the other minute details of updating constantly. And there is no guarantee that any of it will be profitable!!
    If they could do it, they would be.

    Anyone keeping a centralised list of these lame programs?

  9. #9
    Catherine is offline Public Member
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    Crikey! I've just read your posts and am shocked!! I work for an affiliate network promoting gaming clients and am horrified if that's really the impression we're giving you! Surely not all the programmes you work with can be guilty of having such a lack of understanding of exactly how much hard work is required to be an affiliate, let alone a successful one?? And why would a programme want to punish you for being successful? When you are successful as an affiliate it means success for the programme as a whole - it's a business structure based on partnership and a cohesive working relationship.

    I can totally understand why changing their T&Cs (especially if no notice is given!) is extremely frustrating, but are all programmes you deal with really this bad? I'm not asking for a blacklist of bad programmes and free promotion for the decent ones, but just interested to hear why the current situation seems to be as bad as you describe?

    Catherine
    brandconversions.com
    catherine@brandconversions.com

  10. #10
    universal4's Avatar
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    Default

    It's pretty simple really.


    If you "contract" with someone for a "lifetime" and then later change that, it's no longer a "lifetime".

    The contract has been broken.

    Rick
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  11. #11
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    Hi Amateur,

    Your post was very well put.
    CCJ
    www.casinocashjourney.com

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  12. #12
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    I would give you a round of applause for that post but am no where near you.

    That was so well put. It's beyond words.

    Hopefully someone will learn.

    Me - "Hi, my name is John and I am an affiliate"

    Group - "Hi John"

    Me - "I haven't slept in 48 hours"

    *sigh*

    We need Affiliates Anonymous.
    Regards,
    J

  13. #13
    universal4's Avatar
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    Default

    I suspected this morning you were getting a bit punchy....LOL

    Go lay down for a bit....

    Rick
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  14. #14
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    Default

    Yea, it had been one of those days
    Regards,
    J

  15. #15
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    Default

    Two of our affiliate managers are nicknamed the [X city] Mafia (they're different organisations in the same city) because they keep making us offers we can't refuse.

    Great post btw.

  16. #16
    Craig P.C.U is offline New Member
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    Default Nicely put.

    Thanks Amateur,

    That makes interesting reading and food for thought......

    As a new affiliate manager I was under the impression that the point of having a manager was to balance the need to drive our sites forward AND the needs of those doing the driving!

    Obviously this is not the way others see this, judging from the replys at any rate!

    I could be a bit niave, being new an' all , but surely this could be brought to the attention of the companies in question to try to get at better conclusion to these issues? I could be wrong so please dont all shout at me at once!

    Anyway, you lot continue to act as my education so thanks to all and to Amateur.


    Craig Adams

    Affiliate Manager

    Poker.co.uk

  17. #17
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    Hi Craig and welcome

    I am a casino affiliate and supporter of a great many affiliate managers and programs. I will more often than not stand up in their defense.

    But (Isn't there always a but?

    If you have an affiliate manager who is not towing the line and ignoring your mails, then you mail support, manager, and so forth. Somehow, they don't get to management. They get back to the affiliate manager who in no way is going to give those mails to management LOL It's a closed shop so to speak. This is a well known concept I learned in Sociology 101. It says that the line managers will usually NOT tell the senior managers what is going on and leave them believing all is well

    That said, you will find that I for one feel that I can pick up the phone and talk to the affiliate managers. I usually do get what I want and I am no way a big affiliate. However, there are one or two programs where ignoring a person is standard fare and not facing problems is the order of the day. I am just lucky I guess to be doing best of all with programs where I totally admire the affiliate managers and what they do for me.
    Have a wonderful day

    Brian
    Online Casinos (Big B Casinos)
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  18. #18
    Craig P.C.U is offline New Member
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    Thanks for the welcome Brian,

    You guys really are a fountain of knowledge.

    eg.

    If you have an affiliate manager who is not towing the line and ignoring your mails, then you mail support, manager, and so forth. Somehow, they don't get to management. They get back to the affiliate manager who in no way is going to give those mails to management LOL It's a closed shop so to speak. This is a well known concept I learned in Sociology 101. It says that the line managers will usually NOT tell the senior managers what is going on and leave them believing all is well
    How NOT to do it!

    And
    I usually do get what I want and I am no way a big affiliate.
    Not to give you my number!



    Only kidding! There is however one problem with this forum!

    It makes me realise just how little I know and how much I have to learn, although it is a nice place to do both!

  19. #19
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    Default

    Nope

    You won't find affiliates who assume they know it all. Your admitting that you don't know it all just puts you in the ranks of those who recognize the diversity within this industry.

    Hmmm

    I think I need to start pushing some poker into the UK.....

    I am pretty sure you are going to make one heck of an affiliate manager (and partner to the affiliates)
    Have a wonderful day

    Brian
    Online Casinos (Big B Casinos)
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  20. #20
    Amateur's Avatar
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    Default

    It appears to me to be a matter of greed. And no, not all are like this, but some have gone to extremes to circumvent the "spirit" of the agreements they made - namely, providing accurate stats, and honest dealings with affiliates.

    If I send a player who never shows in the stats, or I have a player who disappears from my stats, am told that player has been banned, only for that player to suddenly reappear, why wouldn't I be suspicious?

    At the time I originally made this post, one program made mention that their shareholders were not happy with the profits they were generating. Well, they set about to correct that situation - by changing terms, using deceptive stats that can be manipulated, removing players from affiliates' accounts, cross-promoting players referred by affiliates using their "so-called" marketing department, and who knows what else I have no idea about. I know these things because I can see it happening.

    If I'm told that cross-promoted players are supposed to be mine, but they are not being linked to me, why would I trust what is being said on any level.

    These things are happening, and provable, at that.

    Having said all that, I am also pleased with how well so many programs are run. Honesty and integrity are still at the foundation of the relationship between programs and affiliates.

    Hopefully, the future is bright for all of us.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catherine
    Crikey! I've just read your posts and am shocked!! I work for an affiliate network promoting gaming clients and am horrified if that's really the impression we're giving you! Surely not all the programmes you work with can be guilty of having such a lack of understanding of exactly how much hard work is required to be an affiliate, let alone a successful one?? And why would a programme want to punish you for being successful? When you are successful as an affiliate it means success for the programme as a whole - it's a business structure based on partnership and a cohesive working relationship.

    I can totally understand why changing their T&Cs (especially if no notice is given!) is extremely frustrating, but are all programmes you deal with really this bad? I'm not asking for a blacklist of bad programmes and free promotion for the decent ones, but just interested to hear why the current situation seems to be as bad as you describe?

    Catherine
    brandconversions.com
    catherine@brandconversions.com
    Amateur
    "Lifting as we climb" - NACWC
    "...the universe has no edge and no center..."
    "If you can't be a good example, you'll just have to be a horrible warning" - Jennifer Crusie
    "Common Sense is not so common." - Voltaire
    TheAPage.com

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