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  1. #1
    bonusbetting is offline Private Member
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    Default Anyone have an AM contact for Boylesports?

    I've got some outstanding payments and they aren't responding to messaging or email.
    Interested in quality, relevant link exchanges and deals, especially with UK sites.

  2. #2
    thebookiesoffers is offline Former Member
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    take it you are using raymond's email address?

  3. #3
    bonusbetting is offline Private Member
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    Yep, heard back now, thanks anyway.
    Interested in quality, relevant link exchanges and deals, especially with UK sites.

  4. #4
    systemlays is offline Private Member
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    We discovered we had not been paid for a year or so by this program a month ago. Finally got a response through messaging, was told would be paid a week or so ago, then, today, I discover that someone has been in and marked a heap of monthly amounts as "paid" on dates throughout 2011.

    The latest message claims we are owed only 150 or so, which will be paid next week.

    I have bank statements which show we received none of the payments.

    We had a similar experience with WH a few years ago, which eventually was paid to us after a long dispute - where we proved everything with screenshots, and evidence. Its the same here, but I'm surprised, as Boyles have been pretty good payers in the past.

    This forum post suggests they have stopped paying regularly - is this the case for all GPWA members?

    Please note that we sold Systemlays.co.uk last March, but are still active sportsbook affiliates on other domains - would like to update our GPWA account username but can't!

  5. #5
    justbookies is offline Private Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by systemlays View Post
    This forum post suggests they have stopped paying regularly - is this the case for all GPWA members?
    We have always been paid but sometimes the invoices can get ignored and then I just email them in again and state that they haven't been paid. Other times invoices are paid within a few days. It is a bit hit and miss but so long as you keep reminding them you will not have a problem. The big problem is a different issue - this program is 'separate channel' by default which makes it very unattractive.

  6. #6
    systemlays is offline Private Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by justbookies View Post
    It is a bit hit and miss but so long as you keep reminding them you will not have a problem.
    This is a problem in our view - payment should be automatic, not optional. They are contractually obliged to payout on 15th of the month, every month. You shouldn't have to "invoice" for any amount.

    I'm not sure what you mean by "channel"?

  7. #7
    justbookies is offline Private Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by systemlays View Post
    This is a problem in our view - payment should be automatic, not optional. They are contractually obliged to payout on 15th of the month, every month. You shouldn't have to "invoice" for any amount.

    I'm not sure what you mean by "channel"?
    Quite a few firms require an invoice (bet365, betfair, cashcade etc) - I do not see a problem with that as it is normal business practice.

    By 'separate channel' i mean that if you introduce a client to the sports betting and he plays in the casino (or poker) then you will not get any reward for his casino (or poker) play. They keep the channels separate and only reward the single channel that you referred the client to at first. This is a nasty little clause. Obviously the normal method of reward is 'multi-channel' where you get paid on your referred player's activity across all channels.

  8. #8
    systemlays is offline Private Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by justbookies View Post
    Quite a few firms require an invoice (bet365, betfair, cashcade etc) - I do not see a problem with that as it is normal business practice.
    I accept that a few firms require an invoice. That is their policy, and their choice. Boylesports traditionally have paid out automatically on the 15th of each month for the month which preceded. In fact, that's the system with NetRefer. It's what it is designed to do. Betfair also use this system, or, they did, and I'm not aware that this has changed. So it is not normal business practice, normal practice is to use NetRefer to issue automatic payments each month.

    Bet365 operate a different system. They do negative carry over, too, and track all the activity (cross channel). They are certainly not the "norm"!

    Betfair and Boylesports both use NetRefer. With Betfair, we used to receive games, poker, sportsbook activity from all players. I also believe this was the case with Boylesports. This might have changed in the past year or so. If so, its pretty unfair of the bookmaker to be taking so much cream from player accounts induced by the affiliate. If we were not so sportsbook focussed, I would find this obnoxious.

    I have found, over the years since 2004 (when we first started as gambling affiliates) most programs have gone through periods of getting worse/better followed, often, by the opposite. Many have blotted their copy books over this time.

    I like the new Ladbrokes system. I also like Bet365 in general (the invoicing is a bit of a pain, and we've been hit with the negative carry over from some big accounts, but generally they pay quickly, and are transparent).

    A lot has to be taken on trust in this industry, and when figures in reports from a year ago start changing, that's when you have a big problem. This has happened to us now three times. It is often the end of a good relationship!

    It should be standard to pay affiliates automatically. I understand that bookies don't want to pay no longer active affiliates, but if they think about it on the other side, an affiliate who receives a "surprise" payment 6-12 months down the track may be inspired to promote that bookmaker a little harder from that point forth. Its a win win to treat affiliates with respect. Turning the relationship sour can only hurt the merchant in the long run.

    But maybe I'm naive.

  9. #9
    justbookies is offline Private Member
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    Boylesports have always been single channel by default. It is just not something they shout about! Ladbrokes were the same until the recent move to Income Access software. Betfair cross-sell but their tariff was for just 12 months and now tapers off to three years only at reduced commissions for sports - not good at all.

    As for invoices, it may be we have to invoice Boylesports and Betfair purely because we are VAT registered. However I do wonder what affiliate programs think when affiliates complain about having to raise an invoice. We are supposed to be running businesses and any business should be able to create an invoice. Personally I think it is pretty feeble not to be able to do this. I am not aiming that last comment at you though - I now realise you should have been paid automatically by Boylesports, I just confused the issue because we must invoice Boylesports because we are VAT registered.

  10. #10
    systemlays is offline Private Member
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    We are VAT registered, and have never been asked to raise an invoice by Betfair or Boylesports, both of whom have traditionally paid us by bank wire transfer monthly. In fact, Boylesports say this in the FAQ section I just read through at their site.

    I haven't complained about having to raise an invoice - I am complaining about not being paid, nor receiving any response until literally months after first asking for payment (not with an invoice, with a number of emails asking why we hadn't been paid!).

    If the system is to be paid by invoice - that's fine. If the system is to be paid automatically - that's even better (from an administrative point of view, our end).

    It is simple to the point of arbitrariness for the merchant - bookmaker - to pay automatically and issue a self-bill invoice at this time. This is what affiliate networks do, this is what Amazon does, this is what all good affiliate programs do. I'm not arguing about whether or not we as a "business" should or should not be able to raise an invoice. My point is this: given that it is simple to pay on time, automatically, and issue a self-bill invoice, why, then, do many bookmakers insist on not doing this? The inference many will take is that they do not wish to pay unless requested (more than once) to do so.

    The biggest affiliate programs in the world are those with the most transparent tracking, and the most frequent and trustworthy payment systems.

    The terms and conditions flip-flopping on bookmaking affiliate programs does very little for them or their industry.

    As I say, I'm not up to speed with every little change, as we've effectively canned a lot of the worse performing programs (I did wonder why Betfair had dropped so low - probably our older accounts have matured into non-existence!).

    There's too much small print kicking around for my liking, which is why I'm happy we're down to only a handful of bookmakers:

    We like

    Bet365
    Ladbrokes

    Of the rest, Boylesports has been generally good, in the past (they used to just send us a cheque every month before moving to NetRefer). Have experienced issues of PP not wanting to know when we had seasonal lulls (horse racing really spiks in March/April and the rest of the year can go a little quiet). WH's aff software is damn near unusable.

    I like most of the Income Access bookmakers, but they are a little obscure (generally) for the mass market - i.e. Laddies will outperform them on our sites, so we keep it simple and stick to that one now they are on a proper software at last!

  11. #11
    justbookies is offline Private Member
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    I agree with everything you say - we too have heavily reduced the number of operators we promote and got rid of any that really take the mickey or do not have a big enough brand name. Boylesports cling on because of the brand but the single channel thing is a joke.

    I am surprised you like Ladbrokes though. We promote them but the first draft of their new tariff was such a mickey-take and they only changed it because of pressure from the members of this forum (in my view). I am not sure Ladbrokes are really affiliate friendly at heart and i fear what they will do in future. They were happy to try to impose retrospective changes. Like you say, for me bet365 is best by far (just hate that negative rollover).

    As for betfair and boylesports, you may have a different arrangement (but that would be strange), but we must invoice both of these firms because we are VAT registered or we will not get paid (even though betfair is 'outside scope' for VAT nowadays!)

  12. #12
    systemlays is offline Private Member
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    Ladbrokes were on the naughty list for some time, as their old system was nearly indecipherable, but they managed to transfer all of our accounts, and we now get paid for them, so we like them once more.

    When it comes down to terms and conditions like cross-tracking casino and negative carry over, this has always to be weighed against the likelihood of referring signups and active players. And, more importantly, of GETTING PAID. It really doesn't matter what you earn if it gets "shaved" (a word I learned from this industry) before being paid.

    Bet365 are showing the way - just by being honest. Its really not that hard to do. Negative carry over is overcome by having a large number of players, in our experience, but we do have one or two players who occasionally smack our monthly figures - which is par for the course.

    I agree that Ladbrokes might not be the best out there, but I'm weighing the brand recognition into the deal, too. People click their offers when they don't touch other bookies.

    With regards invoicing for VAT, we've never heard of this from either Betfair and Boylesports, two of the programs we've been with the longest. We've basically never changed, though, so it could just be this has been imposed post our signup and we're on a payment plan from 2006!

  13. #13
    justbookies is offline Private Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by systemlays View Post
    With regards invoicing for VAT, we've never heard of this from either Betfair and Boylesports, two of the programs we've been with the longest. We've basically never changed, though, so it could just be this has been imposed post our signup and we're on a payment plan from 2006!
    My guess is they don't know you are vat registered.

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