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  1. #1
    TheBoy is offline Private Member
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    Default Be aware - Pinnacle Sports charges unreal banking fees

    Pinnacle is one of the best sportsbooks but one of the worst affiliate programs IMO.
    They claim that there are $50 banking fees when someone deposit via bank wire and the affiliates have to pay 30% ($15) furthermore they claim that there are 3%-4% banking fees on the other payment methods and the affiliates also have to pay 30% i.e. 0.9%-1.2% on every customer's deposit or withdrawal.
    Currently I'm on Hot-Cold commission plan and my earnings are always near zero.
    I have calculated that if I earn $300 and Pinnacle earn $700, according to Pinnacle there will be $680 banking fees and I will have to pay $204 and Pinnacle will have to pay $476 for banking fees! It's 68%!
    Either their Hot-Cold commission plan isn't real and is in their favor or their banking fees are not real.
    I have contacted many affiliate managers and most of them told me that customer transaction fees don't affect the commission.

  2. #2
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    Are you certain it isn't $50 banking fee just on the transaction and not $680

  3. #3
    TheBoy is offline Private Member
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    $50 is a flat fee on every deposit or withdrawal. $680 are accumulated banking fees.

  4. #4
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    <!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <wontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--> Hi all,

    I wanted to step in here and publicly clarify the numbers that are listed in TheBoy’s post above and our approach to banking fees.

    Yes, affiliates are charged 30% of the banking fees that we incur for processing player deposits and withdrawals.

    These banking fees are not new and they are not hidden - we are very clear in our terms and conditions that banking fees will be deducted and at what percentage. We also provide detailed reporting on these fees in the affiliate system. I am more than happy to walk any affiliates that may be concerned about these fees through these detailed reports, should they like me to.

    It is worth highlighting that we also charge players for making more than one withdrawal in a calendar month. 30% of any such charge made to an affiliated player is credited to that affiliate. So the calculations do work both ways and it is entirely possible for affiliate banking fees to be positive.

    Banking fees are directly linked to deposit/withdrawal methods and amounts. While fees do play a part in arriving at a net affiliate revenue figure for any given period, they are not linked to this figure. This I think is the main cause of confusion and alarm in TheBoy’s post.

    Depending on the affiliate’s commission type, affiliate revenue is either linked to player wins and losses, or betting volume.

    As affiliate revenue (or indeed our revenue) is not linked to banking fees, it is difficult to apply any correct calculations to the example provided by TheBoy above.

    Using a relevant, real-life example instead:

    In the past 6 months, affiliate player net deposits = $3,993.02

    Total accumulated banking fees on that amount = $237.27

    Affiliate’s share at 30% = $71.18 (1.78%)
    Our share at 70% = $166.09 (4.16%)

    Nowhere close to the amounts or percentages quoted in TheBoy’s post above.

    I appreciate that we may be unique in passing on banking fees to affiliates, but then most affiliate programs are unique in their affiliate offering.

    No program is perfect and inevitably, despite our openness on this issue, some individuals will remain unhappy with any such fees applied to their account. They will feel the need to threaten to ‘go public’ with information, even when the information is already public. I don’t appreciate threats and that approach is no way to build a long-lasting, professional, business relationship.

    While I would like to please every single affiliate partner all of the time, this is, unfortunately, an unrealistic goal. Although it is one that myself and the team will continue to try and achieve.

    On a positive note, as we do not offer player bonuses, there are no fees deducted for these. We also have no minimum activity requirement for commission withdrawals and pay commission every week, for the lifetime of any referred players.

    Thank you,

    Ryan Henderson
    Head of Affiliates
    Pinnacle Sports

  5. #5
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    it is difficult to apply any correct calculations to the example provided by TheBoy above.
    The problem is....

    TheBoy and his affiliate account IS a REAL LIFE EXAMPLE and if an affiliate has a question about stats....why would you come up with some NON-RELEVANT real life example that contains figures from what could happen with an affiliate and instead focus on answering the affiliate's question about THEIR REAL LIFE stats?

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    If an affiliate program is not small affiliate friendly (especially small US Affiliate), then they are NOT Affiliate Friendly!

  6. #6
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    Hi Rick, the example I've given is entirely relevant. TheBoy links his earnings to banking fees, I am trying to clarify for him and the forum that this is not the correct way to calculate fees. Hopefully that is clear?

    I have given very specific real life examples to TheBoy privately. I am more than happy for him to post all our emails publicly here. As the numbers in those emails relate to his account performance, the decision to publicly share them is his, not mine.

    Thank you,

    Ryan.

  7. #7
    TheBoy is offline Private Member
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    Ryan, why you share my data in the public??? It's not professional.
    The numbers that I have given are IN PROPORTION to the current situation.
    Currently 64.5% from my earnings goes to banking fees and it's fact!
    When I posed the numbers that percent was 68%. Ryan, please confirm this.
    IMO it's logical to expect similar banking fees in the next 6 months but Ryan told me that it's not logical! And this is funny.
    That percent may be 38% but also it may be 98%.

  8. #8
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    Thanks Ryan for the update I have never had an issue with Pinnacle Sports affiliate program and was aware of the banking fee prior to joining and excepting to promote them.

  9. #9
    RyanH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AK View Post
    Thanks Ryan for the update I have never had an issue with Pinnacle Sports affiliate program and was aware of the banking fee prior to joining and excepting to promote them.
    Thanks AK, re: your IM, please send me an email - ryanh @ pinnaclesports . com
    Ryan Henderson - Head of Affiliates - Kindred Affiliates

  10. #10
    TheBoy is offline Private Member
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    Ryan, you don't have bravery and virtue to acknowledge that currently 64.5% from my earnings goes to banking fees.

    You try to manipulate the affiliates:

    It is worth highlighting that we also charge players for making more than one withdrawal in a calendar month. 30% of any such charge made to an affiliated player is credited to that affiliate. So the calculations do work both ways and it is entirely possible for affiliate banking fees to be positive.
    If you find only one affiliate who have more then 10 active players and whose banking fees are positive I will leave this industry as an affiliate and as a player.

    Also you try to confuse the affiliates and hide some facts:

    Banking Fees That Affiliate Has To Pay / Affiliate Player Net Deposits = 1.78%

    Banking Fees That Affiliate Has To Pay / Affiliate Earnings = 64.5%

    These are two different things!


    P.S. I'm proud that I caused someone from Pinnacel to join this forum.

  11. #11
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    <!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <wontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--> TheBoy,

    “You try to manipulate the affiliates:

    It is worth highlighting that we also charge players for making more than one withdrawal in a calendar month. 30% of any such charge made to an affiliated player is credited to that affiliate. So the calculations do work both ways and it is entirely possible for affiliate banking fees to be positive.

    If you find only one affiliate who have more then 10 active players and whose banking fees are positive I will leave this industry as an affiliate and as a player.”

    RH - Please stop accusing me of things. I am not manipulating anyone. Of course it is possible for fees to be positive. I’m looking at a report that shows me exactly that information now.

    As an example - a single individual from your player group makes 3 withdrawals via bankwire in a month. The first is free to the player but your share of our fee is $15. The 2 further withdrawals by the player are charged to him at $50 each and you are credited 2 x $15 = $30. Your net banking fees in this example are -$15 + $30 = $15.

    “Also you try to confuse the affiliates and hide some facts:

    Banking Fees That Affiliate Has To Pay / Affiliate Player Net Deposits = 1.78%
    Banking Fees That Affiliate Has To Pay / Affiliate Earnings = 64.5%

    These are two different things!”

    RH - Yes they are two different things and this is a very important point. Your original post mixed them up, this is why I felt the need to post my reply and correct your figures.

    From your posts here:

    “Currently 64.5% from my earnings goes to banking fees and it's fact!
    When I posed the numbers that percent was 68%. Ryan, please confirm this.

    That percent may be 38% but also it may be 98%.”

    RH - Thank you for sharing this information. As you can see the number has already changed in the few days we have been discussing this.

    As I have explained to you privately, for over a month banking fees were 0% of your earnings as no deposits or withdrawals where made by your players.

    We can continue to go around in circles on this issue but here are some facts I would like you to confirm:

    Your account with us has been open for just 6 months.
    Your very small base of active players are currently winning.
    Despite this, because of our Hot/Cold commission structure, you are earning positive commission and your current commission balance is positive.

    I am sorry that you are unhappy with your current earnings. I am unable to change them.

    The only person that can realistically influence them is you. We will, of course, do what we can to help. If you need reviews, banners, email templates etc we are happy to work with you to develop your affiliate account with us.

    If you are still upset about the way we operate, I suggest you remove us from your website and focus your efforts on more productive partnerships. This is a business relationship, you are free to end it at any time.

    I really don’t have much more to add. We have already had this entire conversation via email. I hope that having it in public has further helped to clarify things.

    I sincerely wish you and the GPWA readers a very Happy Christmas/Hanukkah/Holiday season.

    Thank you,

    Ryan.
    Ryan Henderson - Head of Affiliates - Kindred Affiliates

  12. #12
    TheBoy is offline Private Member
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    Ryan,

    Of course it is possible for fees to be positive. I’m looking at a report that shows me exactly that information now.
    Please inform us when you find such a player.

    As an example - a single individual from your player group makes 3 withdrawals via bankwire in a month. The first is free to the player but your share of our fee is $15. The 2 further withdrawals by the player are charged to him at $50 each and you are credited 2 x $15 = $30. Your net banking fees in this example are -$15 + $30 = $15.
    As I have explained to you privately, for over a month banking fees were 0% of your earnings as no deposits or withdrawals where made by your players.
    You try to manipulate again. Don't make your calculations over single month or single player. My overall banking fees are very negative and over some months banking fees were more then 100% of my earnings.

    Your very small base of active players are currently winning.
    Despite this, because of our Hot/Cold commission structure, you are earning positive commission and your current commission balance is positive.
    As I told you I'm a pro gambler and I know but also you know very well that -$x.xxx easy can be +$x.xxx

    I am sorry that you are unhappy with your current earnings. I am unable to change them.
    Yes, You can change them if you cut your unreal banking fees (this is the core of the problem).

    Here is one example that shows how much your banking fees are unreal.
    If someone deposit 1000 EUR via Moneybookers you claim that banking fees are 30 EUR and affiliates have to pay 9 EUR but actually the fees for this transaction are 0.5 EUR. This is 60x more then real fees.

  13. #13
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    “Please inform us when you find such a player.”

    RH – I just have.

    “You try to manipulate again. Don't make your calculations over single month or single player. My overall banking fees are very negative and over some months banking fees were more then 100% of my earnings

    RH – Where is the manipulation? I am highlighting numbers relevant to this conversation.

    “As I told you I'm a pro gambler and I know but also you know very well that -$x.xxx easy can be +$x.xxx”

    RH – I cannot work with you if you want to talk about ‘ifs’, ‘maybes’ and ‘$x,xxx’. All the actual numbers and calculations I have shown in this thread are real.

    “Yes, You can change them if you cut your unreal banking fees (this is the core of the problem).”

    RH – I am unable to change them

    “Here is one example that shows how much your banking fees are unreal.
    If someone deposit 1000 EUR via Moneybookers you claim that banking fees are 30 EUR and affiliates have to pay 9 EUR but actually the fees for this transaction are 0.5 EUR. This is 60x more then real fees.”


    RH – once again you are quoting 2 different figures. The player fees may be 0.5 EUR but what players are charged by payment providers is not what operators are charged. I have already explained this to you.

    I agree they charge us operators too much. At least we finally agree on something..

    I am a very patient man and generally a nice guy, but this conversation has gone on long enough. If you have something new to discuss with me I am happy to help.

    If you continue to simply say the same thing in a slightly different way, I’m afraid I can no longer be involved.

    Thank you,

    Ryan.
    Ryan Henderson - Head of Affiliates - Kindred Affiliates

  14. #14
    TheBoy is offline Private Member
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    Ryan,

    Please inform us when you find such a player.

    RH – I just have.
    Prove this and I will leave this industry.

    You try to manipulate again. Don't make your calculations over single month or single player. My overall banking fees are very negative and over some months banking fees were more then 100% of my earnings

    RH – Where is the manipulation? I am highlighting numbers relevant to this conversation.
    Choosing one single month in which banking fees are 0% and don't talking about months in which banking fees are more then 100% is classic manipulation and hiding the facts. I talk about overall numbers and you talk only about numbers that are on your side.

    Yes, You can change them if you cut your unreal banking fees (this is the core of the problem).

    RH – I am unable to change them
    You are a Head of Affiliates and you should have a influence.

    Here is one example that shows how much your banking fees are unreal.
    If someone deposit 1000 EUR via Moneybookers you claim that banking fees are 30 EUR and affiliates have to pay 9 EUR but actually the fees for this transaction are 0.5 EUR. This is 60x more then real fees.


    RH – once again you are quoting 2 different figures. The player fees may be 0.5 EUR but what players are charged by payment providers is not what operators are charged. I have already explained this to you.
    I don't believe that operator are charged more then players but even if this is true 3%-4% is really high. Pinnacle operates with very low margins (2%-3%) and with 3%-4% banking fees Pinnacle will go bankrupt.

    If some affiliate managers from the other programs have permission to share data about banking fees, it will be great.

    I very rare argue with someone at forums but in this case I'm feeling deceptive.

    Thank you,
    TheBoy

  15. #15
    TheBoy is offline Private Member
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    “Currently 64.5% from my earnings goes to banking fees and it's fact!
    When I posed the numbers that percent was 68%. Ryan, please confirm this.

    That percent may be 38% but also it may be 98%.”

    RH - Thank you for sharing this information. As you can see the number has already changed in the few days we have been discussing this.
    Currently 78.31% of my earnings goes to banking fees!

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    Thanks for the heads up! Scary charges indeed

  17. #17
    Roulette Zeitung is offline Public Member
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    Hello,

    Quote Originally Posted by TheBoy View Post
    Currently 78.31% of my earnings goes to banking fees!
    not only webmasters are looking like a burning christmas tree...

    Player, come! Have fun at Pinnacle Sports...

    "How much does it cost to receive a payout from my Pinnacle Sports account?"

    Except for clients using our free account to account transfer service, each Pinnacle Sports' client receives one free withdrawal per calendar month. And, there is no minimum amount required for your free withdrawal and you may use any of your authorized withdrawal methods.

    All additional withdrawals during the calendar month, for any amount using any withdrawal method, incur a fee. The fee is based on the withdrawal option selected. Bank Wire Transfers in USD will incur a $25 USD fee. Withdrawals in USD using NETELLER, Moneybookers, ClickandBuy, myCitadel, WebMoney or INSTADEBIT will incur a $15 USD fee. For information on the applicable fees for all other currencies, please select your preferred currency from the list on the Cashier Information pages of this Web site. Please see the FAQ for each withdrawal method for additional information.
    Source: pinnaclesports.com/help/faqs/payments

    "Bank Wire Transfers in USD will incur a $25 USD fee. Withdrawals in USD using NETELLER, Moneybookers, ClickandBuy, myCitadel, WebMoney or INSTADEBIT will incur a $15 USD fee."



    "Withdrawals in USD using NETELLER, Moneybookers [...] will incur a $15 USD fee."


    Not enough! Germany customers are more and more happy after reading this:

    Zusätzlich werden auch die Gebühren erhoben, die PinnacleSports für Ihre Einzahlungen an die jeweiligen Finanzinstitutionen zahlt. Die Gebühr für Moneybookers beträgt 2.8%, Moneybookers Direct Deposit ist 4%, NETELLER ist 2.3%, NETELLER 1-Pay ist 4%, Kredit oder Debitkarten betragen 4% und INSTADEBIT ist 4%.
    Translation:

    "In addition, the charges are made, PinnacleSports have to pay for your deposits to the respective financial institutions. The fee is 2.8% Moneybookers, Moneybookers Direct Deposit is 4%, NETELLER is 2.3%, NETELLER 1-Pay is 4%, credit or debit cards are 4% and Instadebit is 4%."

    In some countries this may be normal. For German customers and the usual practice in the German market a $15 Neteller/Moneybookers fee is indecent.

    Burn, christmas tree, burn!

    Leopold

  18. #18
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    Pinnaclesports said that they have High odds for sportsbook but also they have High fees for withdrawals.
    Pinnaclesports why?WHY?

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