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  1. #1
    DanHorvat's Avatar
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    Default Bet365 is just like the rest of them

    I had a bet on Houston scoring under 27.5 points in the 4th quarter of an NBA match. They scored 24, but the game happened to go to overtime and Bet365 declared my bet lost.

    I won't even begin to explain why this is against the NBA rules and against common sense, I will just say I had a bet on over 25.5 points in the 3rd quarter, and that bet was lost, but no OT was added to the result of that quarter. Because you don't go around adding OT to any individual quarter.

    My ticket clearly says "4th Quarter - Team Totals", the line of 27.5 implies the time frame of 12 minutes and no more, and I was misled into believing I'm betting on the number of points Houston will or will not score in the 4th quarter. That was not the case.

    I understand why OT is added to team totals when you're betting on an entire game whatever the entire game may be. In that light, my lost live bet on San Antonio-Memphis under 189.5 (they went to OT) is more or less logical. But this 4Q bet is not as it was made on a specific portion of the game.

    Live betting disputes which end up being arbitrarily resolved by the bookmaker in its own favor are common. I was just surprised to see Bet365 fall into the same category.

    By the way, Bet365 know this is wrong and they're willing to pay for you to keep quiet. Before I even started explaining my case to the customer support, they were already offering me a refund of the stake "as a gesture of good will".

    Good will my ass. You don't go around handing out free money to people who complain unless you know they got a case.

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    justbookies is offline Private Member
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    Their rules are clear:
    http://help.bet365.com/en/rules/rules-sports/basketball

    No doubt if overtime was not included then the line they offered would have been lower, so they will have factored the possibility of overtime into the bet they offered.

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    Default

    I have a rule myself, I'm flipping a specific finger when I read comments such as this one.

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    pinkytoe is offline Private Member
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    What's wrong with Justbookies comment?

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    Default

    It's in the rules, pinkytoe. That's how I react to absence of logic, common sense or compassion. Fortunately for me, since it's in my rules, justbookies can't complain.

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    justbookies is offline Private Member
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    You got compassion when you had a losing bet because you did not know the rules of that market and Bet365 kindly offered your stake back. I would have told you to swivel. But that is why they are such a great firm - valuing their customers, even when they make a mistake. Nothing worse than punters talking through their pockets.

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    My point in this case is that I made a bet in good faith, the bet was supposed to be won, and was lost because of arbitrary settlement rules. Sure, it's a rule. Negative carryover is also a rule.

    What I'm saying here is that Bet365 isn't immune to fine print and isn't immune to burning players. Hence the title of the thread. Everyone is gloryfying Bet365 because, simply, being popular makes you even more popular. I'm just saying we should keep our feet on the ground. Bet365 are good, but not that good, not infallible, and definitely not the best out there. Not with these odds they're giving and not with these settlement rules.

    These details matter.

    For one, Pinnacle Sports would settle my bet as won. What do you say now, brown nose?

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    justbookies is offline Private Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanHorvat View Post
    What do you say now, brown nose?
    If other bookies treat this specific instance differently then your mistake was understandable. We all make mistakes, just most of us have the honesty to admit them.

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    Dan - I understand the annoyance. You thought you had a winner - it was settled as a loser - according to the stated rules.

    I can see looking at Bet365 basketball rules that they carefully state that in-play bets, in-play half bets, and in-play quarter bets include OT. I agree that it's different from some other bookmakers - and that's probably what Bet365 took into consideration when offering to refund your stake as good will.

    What did you expect once you read how the rules were stated there? Did you REALLY expect to be settled as a winner?

    I also agree that the best outcome of all would be that Bet365 modify their rules to fall into line with general expectation - so this "gotcha" isn't there. Are you saying that ALL other bookmakers don't include OT in 4Q totals bets? (I don't bet 4Q totals).

    I'll contact my AM to point this out - and add to the general voice of opinion that they need to go better.

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    This sucks, because usually 4th qt bets are without OT for US sports. 2nd halves and fulltimes are with OT. That is Las vegas rules.

    But Bet365 with all the live betting markets had to change it. I am sorry to say it, but it is at least partly because of me. It was very easy to hit them few years ago, when they had the LV rules. It makes sense, as they have it now and I will tell you why.

    The difference between totals for last qt and totals for game can be anything between 0-2 points. It depends how close the game is. In extreme situation (where bet365 does not post lines of course), the difference can be up to 10 points or so. I am talking about situation where it is 2 point game and Lebron has 4 seconds at home to tie game... But even the 0-2 points are huge difference on totals and for linesmaker it is nearly impossible to set the line right, because he can not only set the line for 4th qt by 2, 1.5, 1, 0.5 or 0 points lower. He has to count the overal sccore and change those numbers, as the game is constantly going in favor of OT or towards blowout. It is many possibilities. Different situation is if you have 10 point game where at the beginning huge favourite is losing [and OT is very probable still] and different situation is 5 mins to go and also 10 points game, where -15 pts favourite is wining.

    I hope you see the point here. They have it in rules. They do not make a shot on you.
    We are all bloodsucking ticks, hungry, devious
    each one latched on to the ass of the previous
    when the last and the first latch on it can be shown
    ass-blood sucked by the first from the last is his own

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  14. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGooner View Post
    What did you expect once you read how the rules were stated there? Did you REALLY expect to be settled as a winner?
    My ticket says what it says. 4Q. Not 4Q and then some.



    I didn't file a complaint about San Antonio-Memphis U189.5 although that one seriously sucks as well. 92-92, man.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheGooner View Post
    Are you saying that ALL other bookmakers don't include OT in 4Q totals bets? (I don't bet 4Q totals).
    Neither did I, I'm a pre-game punter just making a switch to live betting. I would assume most bookmakers are adding OT, hence the title of this thread. For now I found Pinnacle don't do it for 4Q.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheGooner View Post
    I'll contact my AM to point this out - and add to the general voice of opinion that they need to go better.
    Thank you.

    Sherlock, making a bet on both over and under on two different markets on the same game, or finding loopholes in general, is considered professional betting. It isn't difficult to identify such punters and remove their winnings. There's a whole department at Bet36 for that. Don't compare that to a simple 4Q bet. Even if Bet365 were protecting themselves in any way with this settlement rule, I'm saying they need to stop it.

    There are other things I didn't mention. The cash-out feature at Bet365 usually works, but all of a sudden the bet is removed from the cash-out feature sometimes 2, sometimes 6, sometimes 8 minutes before the end of the NBA game. I would assume Bet365 are protecting themselves here as well, based on the number of accepted bets on a certain outcome.

    I don't like that one bit. Live betting is notorious for being an area of betting where most disputes happen, and compared to other bookies such as Unibet (notorious for protecting themselves with arbitrary settlement rules), Bet365 didn't make it much better.

    The live betting experience at Bet365 has been a disappointment. I expected a better product. I will likely use it for NBA TV while betting somewhere else.

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    It isn't difficult to identify such punters and remove their winnings.
    ?
    Not even average bookie can remove winnings. Bet is a deal. There are disputes where line is obviously wrong and how to settle this. But professionals do not bet on obviously wrong lines. They bet of course only on lines with small value,that are not considered bad line. In the good old times I was even reporting bad lines, while hitting value. 0.5-2 points on totals is the case where the value is and not bad line.
    making a bet on both over and under on two different markets on the same game
    Of course nobody would bet on two markets of the same game at the same bookie! The bet of pro looks like a bet of the whale. It is a big single bet as any other.

    I really do not see a problem with Bet365 rules. I remember betting on tennis there once and they had 1st ball served, while I was used for classic 2 sets or 1 set must be played rule. My problem, not theirs.
    We are all bloodsucking ticks, hungry, devious
    each one latched on to the ass of the previous
    when the last and the first latch on it can be shown
    ass-blood sucked by the first from the last is his own

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  17. #13
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    I didn't understand the tennis example. What did you bet on?

    I suppose it has something to do with settlement rules on an unfinished match. That, my friend, has nothing to do with my example as in that case the bookie must set arbitrary settlement rules and they differ from bookmaker to bookmaker.

    My case is more similar to a bookie settling your "Man Utd not to score between 70:00 and 90:00" as lost because the CL final went to overtime and they scored in 119th minute.

    Get it already?
    Last edited by DanHorvat; 19 December 2014 at 3:26 pm.

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    Yes, Dan. I have been betting this for money for years. It is simply your problem that you do not read the rules. There is nothing to add.

    There are rules by the unfinished matches, there are rules for overtimes, there are rules for rain pauses, there are rules for listed pitchers in MLB, there are some dead heat rules in props and some other rules where it differs from bookie to bookie.

    4th qt incl. OT is uncommon yes; but for example for 2nd half OT is counted almost always.

    I was trying to tell you that in live betting it is impossible to set the 4th qt line because of probablity of OT, so the 4th qt line in live betting has to be derived directly from total for game. Otherwise the bookie is vulnerable to giving away value and that is btw where I made big money at Bet365 until they changed the rule.

    The rule is written in TOS, so blame yourself, not the bookie. As I love Bet365 as affiliate and I think they are very good for player, I see they have flaws (e.g. retroactive change of wrong odds), but this is not their flaw. It is a necessity if they accept 1K on qt totals and I think 3K on fulltime and they cover every NBA game.

    It is up to bettor to read the rules. In same way I have seen people who bet some overs in matches, where the over happened early in the game, so the bet "won" quickly. then the game was postponed and bets were voided. What unjustice, the people then shout. But rules are rules. They did not change the rule after your bet, because of your bet. Neither they have some unclear rules which they bend in a way they want. There is no problem.

    Did you really expect, when you saw the same line for totals for 4th qt and for game, that one is with OT and second is not? And if you thought this, then even this anomaly, where OT possibility was maybe ~10%, did not persudaded you to read the TOS?

    I will not comment more in this thread. I have enough gamblers, who blame others for their loses, from my own forum.

    PS. Sorry for the confusion about tennis rule in previous post. I wrote it like idiot in shortcut.
    We are all bloodsucking ticks, hungry, devious
    each one latched on to the ass of the previous
    when the last and the first latch on it can be shown
    ass-blood sucked by the first from the last is his own

  19. #15
    DanHorvat's Avatar
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    What you're lacking in common sense and logic you're making up by incoherent blabbing.

    You yourself tend to cry wolf and come up with conspiracy theories - that's what you're using this forum for. And here you go saying "rules are rules" and saying TOS are sacred. You're a hypocrite.

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    Jokerman99 is offline Private Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sherlock View Post
    Yes, Dan. I have been betting this for money for years. It is simply your problem that you do not read the rules. There is nothing to add.

    There are rules by the unfinished matches, there are rules for overtimes, there are rules for rain pauses, there are rules for listed pitchers in MLB, there are some dead heat rules in props and some other rules where it differs from bookie to bookie.

    4th qt incl. OT is uncommon yes; but for example for 2nd half OT is counted almost always.

    I was trying to tell you that in live betting it is impossible to set the 4th qt line because of probablity of OT, so the 4th qt line in live betting has to be derived directly from total for game. Otherwise the bookie is vulnerable to giving away value and that is btw where I made big money at Bet365 until they changed the rule.

    The rule is written in TOS, so blame yourself, not the bookie. As I love Bet365 as affiliate and I think they are very good for player, I see they have flaws (e.g. retroactive change of wrong odds), but this is not their flaw. It is a necessity if they accept 1K on qt totals and I think 3K on fulltime and they cover every NBA game.

    It is up to bettor to read the rules. In same way I have seen people who bet some overs in matches, where the over happened early in the game, so the bet "won" quickly. then the game was postponed and bets were voided. What unjustice, the people then shout. But rules are rules. They did not change the rule after your bet, because of your bet. Neither they have some unclear rules which they bend in a way they want. There is no problem.

    Did you really expect, when you saw the same line for totals for 4th qt and for game, that one is with OT and second is not? And if you thought this, then even this anomaly, where OT possibility was maybe ~10%, did not persudaded you to read the TOS?

    I will not comment more in this thread. I have enough gamblers, who blame others for their loses, from my own forum.

    PS. Sorry for the confusion about tennis rule in previous post. I wrote it like idiot in shortcut.
    There's no point in arguing, Dan has obviously never been wrong about anything ever, and it's unlikely he ever will be.

  21. #17
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    Thanks for that Jokerman, I'll remember it.

    In the meanwhile, whoever thinks I'm wrong and OT must be added to 4Q, explain to me how come Pinnacle aren't doing it.
    Last edited by DanHorvat; 21 December 2014 at 10:55 am.

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