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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexpratt View Post
    So in conclusion you may not like what bwin have done but they are not rogue, they have not broken their T&C's and are very transparent in terms of what they offer so if you don't like it, don't promote them. Secondly I don't think we should police who exhibits to a degree, i.e. we wouldn't let the real rogues in that are genuinely and very obviously stealing players or aren't paying affiliates, but we will work with programs that some people don't like and others do which is in fact very common, just look at amount of hate and love threads across this forum for various programs.

    I hope that represents our position and I understand some will support this and others won't but it is what it is. If you believe I am wrong then please email me on alex@igamingbusiness.com

    Oh and lastly if you are keen to pursue this line why are you not addressing the mags?? These go to thousands of affiliates regularly (far more than an event) and actually just about all mags I have seen are carrying bwin advertisements including some surprising ones!

    Firstly, it is well-documented that they did breach their own contract. Get your facts straight.

    Secondly, the magazines (GPWA Magazine:March 2011:Page 15, iGBAffiliate:May2011:Page35) that have BeWinners as an advertiser are JUST AS GUILTY as iGB eventing. Equally. Both are shameful to allow companies [who will change their terms and retroactively apply that to their seasoned affiliates] advertising opportunities. Advertising brings new affiliates... affiliates get screwed by the NEXT contract change. The Advertising media is just as culpable because they are sending affiliates to get screwed over.


    Lastly.... IF an event organizer is going to allow operations like BeWinners into events, then they should give out a free *combined* booth to AGD and GAu, complete with free media prints (i.e., billboard/large displays) with the list of all organizations we consider crap.
    Last edited by kwblue; 6 May 2011 at 1:08 pm.

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  3. #22
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    So in conclusion you may not like what bwin have done but they are not rogue, they have not broken their T&C's and are very transparent in terms of what they offer so if you don't like it, don't promote them
    Didn't the problem escalate when bwin were asked to hand over the old T&C's and they refused? Even my png/gif logo is more transparent than that

    K, enough with the geek jokes. I think everyone has a different view on the situation here, and because of it, it got complicated. And actually is pretty simple. Did they retroactively change their T&C's? And did they refuse to give up the old T&C's so changes can be compared? If the answer to both is Yes, then they should be considered bad for business.

    Here's a good proverb that's proven over the years to be true: If a forest catches fire, both the dry and the wet will burn up. Affiliates turning on each other because of a program doesn't sound good. After all you are on the same side.

    I believe in the voting system. Let's face it you can't make everyone happy. Even when president elections are up, one third of the nation is probably unhappy about the new president, but that's life. The vote was made and they have to respect it. I think things like these should also be decided with a vote. No matter what the outcome is everyone has to respect it.
    Gambipedia.com - casino, poker, sports betting guides, reviews & bonuses.

  4. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwblue View Post
    Firstly, it is well-documented that they did breach their own contract. Get your facts straight.

    Secondly, the magazines (GPWA Magazine:March 2011:Page 15, iGBAffiliate:May2011:Page35) that have BeWinners as an advertiser are JUST AS GUILTY as iGB eventing. Equally. Both are shameful to allow companies [who will change their terms and retroactively apply that to their seasoned affiliates] advertising opportunities. Advertising brings new affiliates... affiliates get screwed by the NEXT contract change. The Advertising media is just as culpable because they are sending affiliates to get screwed over.


    Lastly.... IF an event organizer is going to allow operations like BeWinners into events, then they should give out a free *combined* booth to AGD and GAu, complete with free media prints (i.e., billboard/large displays) with the list of all organizations we consider crap.
    I am not going to address your point re the facts as I have checked these.

    With regards to your point re the stand, we have spoken to you and Christine about this several times and have always offered AGD a stand as part of the contra apart from London as it was sold out.....half the problem was that no one replied till it was too late or you didn't want a stand as no one could man it. I actually think you can have one in dublin but need to check just email me......as for GAU.....I have never really seen that as an organisation with more than 20-40 members, great idea but never really had anyone focused on it, but if you want to share your stand theyou are welcome.

    Look forward to your email
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  5. #24
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    Prove me wrong. Show me how they did NOT retroactively change their terms. And then prove to those affiliates affected by it that they did NOT retroactively apply it. Then I will happily believe you

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  7. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwblue View Post
    Secondly, the magazines (GPWA Magazine:March 2011:Page 15, iGBAffiliate:May2011:Page35) that have BeWinners as an advertiser are JUST AS GUILTY as iGB eventing. Equally. Both are shameful to allow companies [who will change their terms and retroactively apply that to their seasoned affiliates] advertising opportunities. Advertising brings new affiliates... affiliates get screwed by the NEXT contract change. The Advertising media is just as culpable because they are sending affiliates to get screwed over.
    The GPWA made a decision to enter into no new business with Bewinners concurrently with their suspension from the GPWA unless the situation was resolved, and, as we all know, that has not happened.

    In the case of GPWA sponsorships, we had specific provisions in our sponsorship contracts that allowed us to terminate sponsor benefits for violations of the GPWA code of conduct. Consequently, we were able to sever our relationship with them on that front right away. On the magazine front, we did not, at the time, have the same contractual protections. So, we had to continue to provide services as contracted on that front. However, we have refused to renew our magazine contract with them, and the existing contract expires this month.

    Michael
    GPWA Executive Director, Casino City CEO, Friend to the Village Idiot

    Resources for Affiliates: iGamingDirectory.com, iGamingAffiliatePrograms.com, GamingMeets.com

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  9. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelCorfman View Post
    The GPWA made a decision to enter into no new business with Bewinners concurrently with their suspension from the GPWA unless the situation was resolved, and, as we all know, that has not happened.

    In the case of GPWA sponsorships, we had specific provisions in our sponsorship contracts that allowed us to terminate sponsor benefits for violations of the GPWA code of conduct. Consequently, we were able to sever our relationship with them on that front right away. On the magazine front, we did not, at the time, have the same contractual protections. So, we had to continue to provide services as contracted on that front. However, we have refused to renew our magazine contract with them, and the existing contract expires this month.

    Michael
    Thanks for putting this out here for all to see Michael! It's EXACTLY what you said you would do in the private forum where we all had this debate whereas IGB gave the "impression" they would take a similar route, (and support our effort in the BWinners situation) but didn't.

    It inforces my trust in GPWA as the only time I have questioned your loyalty to affiliates was during the GP scandal as it relates to what Microgaming should do and I may have had unrealistic expectations due to my bias on the situation.

    However, what IGB is trying to pull is not going to go unnoticed. You can't pimp affiliates and then expect our support. I'm sorry if that offends some, but I'm offended by all the BS that us affiliates have to put up with day after day. It's time to fight back!

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  11. #27
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    Alex is correct the old terms allowed for retroactive changes on quotas, there was never any lifetime guarantee and there was never any set revenue share.

    This is clearly shown in rule 13 of the old terms and conditions

    13. Changing the contract
    bwin reserves the right to modify the rules and provisions of this Agreement at any time to change. The partner via e-mail about the changes. If the agreement within one week after the forward of the amendment is withdrawn, the modification as adopted. bwin reserves the right to all rights and obligations to transfer to another until the bwin Interactive Entertainment AG-group member.

    That first line is what allowed Bwin to change their terms and by agreeing to those terms, as all affiliates did, you in effect allowed Bwin to do exactly what they have done, which is that they reserve the right to modify the rules and provisions of this agreement at any time to change.

    Also the quota is one active sign up in three months and not 10 or 1000 and Bwin are not the first and will not be the last that have quotas, they are just convenient targets.

    With regards to the old terms and conditions, two have been produced, one Mexican based on CPA and one Dutch, you can view the Dutch translated old terms here

    An argument can be made that the terms are predatory and that is then up to the affiliate to work with them, but comparing old terms and conditions with the new ones they are not rogue.

    If anyone can show me where it promises lifetime commission or a set rev share or that they were not allowed to retroactively make changes then I will gladly stand up and say I was wrong, but despite all the comments, no one has of yet done this, I believe that the old terms and conditions show that this is unlikely to happen.

    It is also not really consistent to attack Bwin for not producing their old terms and conditions, it was never the terms and conditions provided by Bwin themselves that were used to start the campaign against them, cached copies were used to rogue them and cached copies are being used to show that their behaviour is not rogue.

    I also read a reply in another thread by Judy (casinobonusbuy), an excellent post that said that any affiliates voting against a program should then remove all their banners text links etc, Judy made the point that it was unfair to vote against a program and not remove their links etc.

    The same applies to Bwin, if anyone campaigns against them, they should remove all traces of them from their websites, if not it undermines your campaign straight away.

    I know I am in a minority in this particular debate in this thread, but I really am confused why Bwin is such a target when they never broke any gauarantees and gave themselves the freedom to make changes when they wanted.

    It is obvious that I am seeing this very differently to others and I cannot understand that, when terms are so important to affiliates and when terms are used by affiliates to rogue a program, then surely it should be those terms that are analysed and nothing else, and as thing stand IMO I simply cannot see what Bwin have done that is rogue, predatory, maybe, rogue, no.
    Arthritis Care

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  12. #28
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    Thanks kwblue for saying it as it is!! Well done and articulated! - Its unfortunate IGB has taken this route but certainly not surprising considering the shape the industry is in, but at least were making some progress. We just have to realize the conferences are in no way meant to help or protect affiliate interests but ways to promote business transactions. Oh well!

    Thanks Michael for pointing out some facts and am glad you will not be renewing the ROGUE and Predatory BWIN for future GPWA sponsorship. This is a good decision you have made - ( I am almost complete now in removing BWIN from all our sites in totality - just a couple more to go).

    As always thanks to everyone who have contributed to sharing their thoughts on the Predatory Rogue Bewinners program. Its only when we do not back down will things ever change. I can certainly say I will never stop and every chance I get will educate the industry on how Rogue and Predatory Bwin really is.

    Even though IGB has choosing to get into bed with Bwin - think of all the positives that were done along the way with most places doing the right thing.

    PAL
    AGD
    GAU
    GPWA
    CAP
    CM

    IBG is the only single one who continues to support BWIN. So its still a good day!

  13. #29
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    Just got this in the mail hahahahaha

    The iGaming Super Show is taking place from 24 to 26 May in Dublin, Ireland. The Grand Privé Affiliates Team will be in attendance and we would like to meet with you. This is your chance to sit down with us,
    ask questions, give us your thoughts/feedback and discuss any future business opportunities. If you are attending the show and are interested in meeting with us, please drop us a mail and we will be more
    than happy to set it up.


    Joe

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    I TOLD YOU GUYS!!! - Looks like my source was correct - Grand Prive is sneaking in backdoor!!! How wonderful!!!

    Just "WOW" - id Grande Prive is setting up meetings with affiliates how are they able to do this?????

    I have to ask - Is Grande Prive a Sponsor? - Do they have booth?

    And if not how can they attend the event? Are they posing as Affiliates?

    I guess we will see a new batch of affiliates getting burned and scammed and we will hear about it in months to come.

    Sigh

    NOTE: I Would like to point out 2 scenarios.

    1. They are allowed to come to event and promote and seek affiliate business with approval (sponsor or other)
    2. They are sneaking in as Affiliates for Free and doing it backdoor style. (Other programs are footing the costs)

    If its number 2 - this means other SPONSORS are essentially footing the bill for these guys to have access to affiliates. How do you suppose IGB
    can allow this to happen? Allowing your other sponsors to foot the bill for GP to do their thing? Interesting indeed

    Unless of course they have been given permission from IGB directly (indirectly) and allowed to appear (for a fee) but not listed as a sponsor.

    Which one is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by pdjoe View Post
    Just got this in the mail hahahahaha

    The iGaming Super Show is taking place from 24 to 26 May in Dublin, Ireland. The Grand Privé Affiliates Team will be in attendance and we would like to meet with you. This is your chance to sit down with us,
    ask questions, give us your thoughts/feedback and discuss any future business opportunities. If you are attending the show and are interested in meeting with us, please drop us a mail and we will be more
    than happy to set it up.

    Last edited by GFPC; 7 May 2011 at 2:37 am.

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  16. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelCorfman View Post
    The GPWA made a decision to enter into no new business with Bewinners concurrently with their suspension from the GPWA unless the situation was resolved, and, as we all know, that has not happened.

    In the case of GPWA sponsorships, we had specific provisions in our sponsorship contracts that allowed us to terminate sponsor benefits for violations of the GPWA code of conduct. Consequently, we were able to sever our relationship with them on that front right away. On the magazine front, we did not, at the time, have the same contractual protections. So, we had to continue to provide services as contracted on that front. However, we have refused to renew our magazine contract with them, and the existing contract expires this month.

    Michael
    Nice to see somebody standing up to these big bullies and also to have the decency to honor existing contracts. Remember when CAP thought they were above the law and their members and partners? It all came crashing down pretty quickly. iGB Affiliate should learn from history and remember who their real clients are.

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  18. #32
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    Class act Michael,

    Way to go on showing them how its done the right way!
    Joe

  19. #33
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    Lots of comments again and yet still no one has shown at all in any form that Bwin are rogue

    No wonder affiliates can never be united, it may not be the case on here, but there are untold affiliates out there that will never rogue a program without proof and just for the sake of it, show the proof please.

    There is no proof, in fact it is the other way round and it is a sad state of affairs when a program is rogued, any program, when there is an absolute absence of evidence to support those allegations.

    This is nothing more than a black mark against affiliates, it is showing how unreasonable we can be when we rogue a program that has broken no terms and conditions.

    It has obviously gone too far now for any of the anti Bwin campaigners to backtrack and yet without any evidence what is the other option.

    As the great polemicist Christopher Hitchens once said

    "That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence."

    Never has a truer comment has been made and very apt for this debate.

    Now my fellow affiliates, I hate standing against you, I really do and so I beg you to correct me and bring me onside, please show me where I am mistaken and show me the evidence and I will support this campaign.

    It is bloody cold on the outside, especially with the silent majority refusing to stand up, but in fairness I have not been subjected to any insults or attacks for my views on Bwin and that is appreciated.

    Finally Grand Prive, I will withhold judgment on them until I have heard Alex response on them, there is no question that with regards to Grand Prive, I stand full square behind my fellow affiliates, I cannot at this stage support Grand Prive attending any conference or being welcomed back in the gambling affiliate family until every single last affiliate has been paid what is owed in its entirety, not until compensation has been paid and until cast iron guarantees in terms of money deposited in escrow or some other manner that will ensure affiliates will always be paid in the future, anything less will never get my support.
    Arthritis Care

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  20. #34
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    We have never worked with Grand Privee.....as for attending, it's free so people can register as whoever they like almost thus making it almost impossible to police......I was also approached pre LAC to see if we would work with them and I said no and said it's extremely unlikely I could ever see this changing.....as I previeously said GP is very obviously rogue, bwin is not rogue just has some predatory t&c's
    iGB Affiliate - The biggest magazine and events for affiliates in igaming

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  22. #35
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    Thanks for clearing the Grand Prive issue up Alex, hopefully that can now be put to rest and this thread not distracted from its original premise and not become an out and out attack on IGB.
    Arthritis Care

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  23. #36
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    IMO it's not clearned up and it won't be put to rest, but I don't blame you guys for trying to make it seem that way.

    No one is under attack! If that was the case then we would be at the confence in force to do that.

    We are voicing our view of the situation. It's a problem because the majority feels it's a issue/problem that needs to be addressed? This is not the first time that IGB's decisions has been questioned and it may not be the last so let us do as we please and not be censored or harrassed to shut up.
    Last edited by GamTrak; 7 May 2011 at 8:52 am.

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  25. #37
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    Robin, I for one certainly am not asking anyone to shut up or be censored and by all means voice your opinion, I for one welcome that, I have always respected your point of view, even when I have disagreed with you.

    However, Alex has made a categorical statement that he is not working with Grand Prive and will not be working with them, not sure what else he can do and if his statement is not believed then it no longer matters what Alex has to say about anything anymore.

    This thread is about Bwin sponsoring in Dublin, if it does stray off in to other sponsors or potential sponsors and goes on to discuss how IGB works with other companies then I am sorry to say that is an expansion of this thread and becomes an attack on IGB and Alex.

    If this thread is just about Bwin, that is fair, the title is clear about the intention of this thread, if on the other hand it starts to delve in to other aspects of IGB and how they operate, that is unfair.

    I will also state that if IGB and Alex are to become the subjects of the next campaign or they are targeted via Bwin and that in turn brings in other aspects of IGB and how they operate etc then I honestly feel we will have an even deeper split within the affiliate community.

    I seriously do not see any justification going after IGB and I doubt very much that there will be any abundance of support of such action.

    Any campaign that is seen to be effective has to have at the very least the suport of the majority of affiliates, that IMO will not happen if we start after IGB.

    This thread is about Bwin, Alex has issued the statement on Grand Prive and unless Alex is being called an outright liar then yes, it should be laid to rest, if it is not then at least come out and say that Alex is a bold faced liar.

    Also still waiting on the proof that Bwin is indeed rogue, the terms are displayed for anyone to read and see and in the absence of that proof, then this campaign needs to be closed down as it is unfair and reflects badly on affiliates.

    To date I have never seen a campaign against any affiliate program without evidence, this really is the first time, no idea why, but it is.

    Unless someone has that proof of course, I will always be open to read the proof when presented, but I am sorry to say, I cannot support any campaign without proof and I am surprised that some of my fellow highly respected affiliates have chosen to take this course.
    Arthritis Care

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    In regard to Grand Prive ,maybe if somebody sets up an appointment with them they can point them out to Alex and Security so they can be shown the door.They contacted me via a third party to ask to sponsor our event in Canada .At first I thought the balcony must be ten floors off the ground we should invite them What surprised me more is the third party is somebody I really respect and to know they are dealing with Grand Prive really makes me sick.

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    Thanks Judy for not accepting them - you made a wise choice not to allow those thugs in. Will be interesting to see how this all plays out with the major rogue programs showing up both as sponsors and on the other side sneaking in. Sounds like its going to be nuts.



    Quote Originally Posted by casinobonusguy View Post
    In regard to Grand Prive ,maybe if somebody sets up an appointment with them they can point them out to Alex and Security so they can be shown the door.They contacted me via a third party to ask to sponsor our event in Canada .At first I thought the balcony must be ten floors off the ground we should invite them What surprised me more is the third party is somebody I really respect and to know they are dealing with Grand Prive really makes me sick.

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    I do not care what word is used to describe BWIN but if these terms are used in any affiliate program they are definitely not affiliate friendly.


    1. Any players who deposit - after 3 years they drop the commission for that player to 5% (so 30-40% rev share for 3 years - then drop the rate to 5%)
    2. Players who sign up with your affiliate tag who fail to make a deposit within 90 days are removed from your tag.
    3. If you do not bring in 1 single player (deposit) 3 months - they terminate your agreement - any outstanding amounts and players are all closed - you lose everything.
    4. If you do not create an invoice in 12 months - any money in account is void and they keep it.

    I want to thank Steve for sending me the reader's Digest version I do not work with BWIN and obviously won't after reading these terms.Personally I do not have issue with term 3 ,IMO getting a player every three months is not unreasonable for programs to expect.

    Judy

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