Breaking News: DOJ indicts founders of Stars, Full Tilt, AP

[EugeneK]

do you think online casinos will be the next ones?

[Dominique]

I believe that statement is incorrect. I believe it is bank fraud/money laundering if you deliberately try to hide where the money is going independently of how the money is being used.

Also, federal law can be violated based on the violation of state laws even for activities that would not otherwise violate federal law. That is how the UIGEA is structured.

In my view, the illegal gambling charges are the weaker set of charges in the indictments. I view the money laundering charges are more serious, and will not be easy to get around. Sort of like back in the mafia days where prosecution for tax evasion was easier than prosecution for illegal activities much of the time.

Michael

Michael

Well, if there was no illegal gambling, there was no bank fraud.

It isn't illegal to start as many companies as one likes, it's not illegal to invest in banks etc. The only thing that makes it illegal is UIGEA, and UIGEA defines the objectionable transactions as based on illegal online gambling.

If there was no illegal online gambling taking place, all the actions were legal because UIGEA does not apply.

[Chips]

Anyone know the future of AP players?

Just read this:

The CEREUS Network remains open to real money action from the United States, but USA players are unable to cash out, deposit, or transfer funds.

Source: http://www.thenuts.com/news/barney-f...esources-1120/

Good article on Barney Frank's take on the DOJ actions.

[alexpratt]

Just a quick reminder that the webinar panel discussion is in two hours - Its free and should be a really interesting discussion around what has happened and what is "likely" to happen next - We have 750 people signed up but space for 250 more http://www.igamingbusiness.com/conte...indictments-qa

[grem]

You can't cashout? This must be a nightmare for players. Maybe that poker network wants and hopes the players who grind away their money via rake? If you can't cashout or transfer then I can't see these players logging in to just play.

[Caruso]

Well, if there was no illegal gambling, there was no bank fraud.

This was my reaction. If it's for an illegal activity, then duplicitous sleight-of-hands are reasonably illegal. But if it's for a LEGAL activity, what does it matter?

If I make a purchase at Aunty Hilda's Knitting Warehouse, but my ewallet lists it as Uncle Henry's Gold Shoes, why is the "cover up" fraudulent? Aunty Hilda's wares are not illegal. If I were mis-coding to cover a crime, that's another matter, but the rooms can argue that they had to mis-code the transactions because their "legal" transactions were being improperly refused. It certainly LOOKS dodgy, but they can make the argument, and if they can demonstrate that gambling isn't actually (federally) illegal - which it isn't - it won't half help them.

Whether or not the DC and NY state laws then come into play over federal...**shrug**

[grem]

the future of online poker

[GPWA Aaron]

Well, if there was no illegal gambling, there was no bank fraud.

The banks were declining transactions from American players, so working with payment processors, the sites (allegedly) hid the true nature of American player deposits, making them look like they were for golf balls or clothes rather than to fund online poker accounts. Whether or not the activity was legal (which is up for debate) doesn't change the fact that they intentionally misled banks to think they were doing something they were not (allegedly). That = bank fraud.

[pokertramp]

grem, that was an awesome video, thanks for sharing!

[APCW]

the future of online poker

Great post! We have to take action to make sure this stops.

APCW just released a video with a call to action. I encourage everyone to act.

[pokertramp]

I need opinions here....the check I got from Poker Stars that was returned unpaid a few weeks ago...they sent me a hard copy of it back to try to redeposit, do I take the chance it's from "Lancore Merchant Services PTE LTD" do you think it may go through or am I dreaming??

[Affcorner]

here is a video that made me laugh, hope it makes you all laugh too!

http://tinyurl.com/425a8e7

(hey, it is better than crying )

[Caruso]

Nelson Rose interview in two videos.

http://forum.sbrforum.com/sportsbook...shutdowns.html

[Imperator]

Dominique you are actually not right. Miscoding transactions is pure money laundering and bank fraud by any law in any country. It has nothing to do with gambling. What drug lords or mafia do to launder money: setup phony companies, make deals with banks, process funds from extortion and drugs as legal sales of cars or sandwiches or whatever. That way they legalize (launder) their money. Its not related to where they have the money from, its related to how they lie the banks that its a business, but the money actually comes from someplace else. What difference does it make if the money is from drugs or from poker when you lied to the government that the money comes from perfumes and expensive watch sales? Thats what they did. Thats what money laundering means by definition.

Cheers

Well, if there was no illegal gambling, there was no bank fraud.

It isn't illegal to start as many companies as one likes, it's not illegal to invest in banks etc. The only thing that makes it illegal is UIGEA, and UIGEA defines the objectionable transactions as based on illegal online gambling.

If there was no illegal online gambling taking place, all the actions were legal because UIGEA does not apply.

[pokertramp]

Here's the best one yet:

Just in case you have not heard the news....

Poker Stars, Full Tilt Poker and Absolute Poker were all charged with money laundering, illegal gambling and bank fraud as the US government accused them of violations of the 2006 Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act.

Speculation in the financial community include opinions like this from James Hollins at Evolution Securities...

" the US-facing poker operators would
(1) certainly cease to operate in the US,
(2) they may close globally (if their '.com' sites are seized), and
(3) their reputations (even if they stay open outside US) would be seriously damaged (consumers may lose trust in their respective brands). US land-based operators have already cancelled strategic alliances with PokerStars (Wynn) and Full Tilt (Station casinos).

There is much uncertainty in the market whether the US regulators will seek to issue licenses for legal online poker in the future. Their approach may be a 'clearing the decks' one which can stimulate regulation rather than prohibition, with licences (and revenues) going to US land-based operators in the future."

Overall we think this is an unfortunate time for internet poker but it may have a silver lining. These recent actions may lead to a more sensible approach with a regulated/licensed industry model being adopted in the near to medium term.

Please spread the word that Planet Poker continues to service the Play for Fun poker market while we wait on the sidelines for a calm and sensible approach to real money wagering that does not attempt to make criminal an activity that is legal inside licensed casinos but illegal on the internet.

We are conducting daily $50 FreeRolls through the end of April as follows:

Thursday, Sunday, Tuesday at 3:30 PM Eastern
Saturday, Monday, Wednesday Friday at 8:30PM Eastern

(No purchase necessary, see site Terms and Conditions for details)

The action/competition remains fierce at Planet Poker where you can hone your poker skills without risk to bankroll or legal status.

*The statements in this email represent opinion only and are not meant to be taken as legal advice.

See you at the tables!

Planet Poker Management & Staff

[Chips]

I need opinions here....the check I got from Poker Stars that was returned unpaid a few weeks ago...they sent me a hard copy of it back to try to redeposit, do I take the chance it's from "Lancore Merchant Services PTE LTD" do you think it may go through or am I dreaming??

I've got a check in process from the same processor. Holding my breath to see if it goes through, I'll let you know if it does (or doesn't)

[pokertramp]

hey Chips
I just redeposited it...worst case it cost me $15 again.

[Playborne]

I completely agree!!! I feel lucky I do not live in the US !

[Caruso]

I hadn't realised that the UIGEA is very specific about "unlawful gambling" - I thought it was vague and misleading.

(10) UNLAWFUL GAMBLING -

(A) IN GENERAL - The term 'unlawful gambling' means to place...a bet or wager...where such bet or wager is unlawful under any applicable Federal or State law in the State or tribal lands in which the bet or wager is initiated, received, or otherwise made.

So the act only made illegal those online (or whatever) transactions for activities whose physical counterparts violated state law. State law says you can't play poker = UIGEA says you can't deposit for poker.

I thought they'd just pulled the term "unlawful gambling" out of their arses, but it's actually entirely specific.

I think (could be wrong) only DC and NY have anti-gambling laws.

[Chips]

hey Chips
I just redeposited it...worst case it cost me $15 again.

Boucey, bouncey, bounce. My check from Lancore Merchant Services PTE LTD was indeed returned. At least my bank only charges $5 for a returned check.

I'll be asking Stars what the backup plan is. I am more than happy to mail the rubber check back to them and have the funds returned to my account then wait until we can cash out.

I had tried to process a cashout last week and they reversed it until further notice.