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  1. #1
    ebruduck is offline New Member
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    Default Clubworld won't pay

    I won there more than 2000 GBP. They cancelled my cashin claiming I was not allowed to open the accounts in GBP.


    I played when they used Cahrtwell software and U could register at the website.

    At the website they had a link called cashier at the home page, it stated there "play at your desired currency", I remember the word desire, it was there and had been removed after I intervene the casinomeister then they changed it to your supported currencies.


    At the terms of use they had a term that you may not open the account at GBP if you are not from England but it was a complete discrepancy with the sentence at the cashier, open your desired currency.

    Moreover at the promotion terms they did not write it.

    I told them that I saw at the cashier that sentence and this is why I opened it in GBP, the manager replied that I saw that at the cashier only after I registered, this is not true because they had the cashier link at the home page, he never replied to that comment.


    In addition, I asked why to confiscate winnings, the game log is still the same, I won at your blackjack table pay me in Euro or USD why not to pay at all ?

    The answer was no, we don't pay anything.

    I found what they did deceptive and dishonest at all, the mistake was not only mine but also because of their misleading sentences


    Here is the last email I got from the manager there:

    Dear XXXXX,



    Firstly I am very sorry this mistake occurred at all. We do try and be as clear as we can and we cannot take responsibility for players not reading our main terms of use page before playing. This is the same in everyday life; with most offers there come terms and even though the terms may not be “in your face” they are still relevant and have to be adhered to prevent recourse.



    The Cashier as you state does have the text that you can purchase in any of our supported currencies, however our sign up where you choose the currency you wish to play in was completed before you entered the Cashier. So I can surmise that you intended to play in GBP from the offset.



    The management has decided not to process your winnings in Euro or any other currency, however as a goodwill gesture we would be happy to have you open a Euro account with us and you will receive the first deposit bonus again.



    If you have any more questions please feel free to contact me.



    Regards,



    Steve Morgan

  2. #2
    kidd75219's Avatar
    kidd75219 is offline Public Member
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    Well, why did you use GBP if you're not from Great Britain? The only reason I can see is to scam the casino out of a higher bonus because of the exchange rate.
    Randall Ashby (Randy)

    Easy Money Casinos

  3. #3
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    Unfortunately the casinos can't afford to entertain everyone who does not read and understand the terms and conditions/bonus rules. It may seem like they should just let it slide just this once, but they have a business to run.

    I'm about 99% sure that you won't be getting your winnings this time, it's probably best to just suck it up and move on.

    It does suck bad that the terms are so vague when your in the sign up phase, but it's like this at all casinos. It's irritating, casinos should by default not let you register in the wrong currency, it would benefit both player and casino.

    The thing is is that most all casinos have this rule as well as game restrictions and wager requirements.

    Here is a good rule of thumb.
    - Read the terms before you register,
    - Read them again before you make a deposit
    - Read them again before you make a withdrawl.

    It's also a good idea to ask the customer support if you have met the bonus wager requirements before you try to withdrawl any winnings from the bonus.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by kidd75219
    Well, why did you use GBP if you're not from Great Britain? The only reason I can see is to scam the casino out of a higher bonus because of the exchange rate.

    A scam or just a better deal?

  5. #5
    ebruduck is offline New Member
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    There was a discrepancy between the cashier that stated open your account in your DESIRED CURRENCY and the terms

    Second, the reason I opened the account in GBP is not relevant.

    They can not deny the game log that showed winnings at blackjack

    I don't agree at all with you guys the casino MUST PAY IN USD.

    There is no reason here to confiscate winnings, they should pay the winnings, there was a mistake in the currency that derived from discrepancy of the term.

    I am not talking even about good will here, they should pay that, end of story.

    I will fight for it until you understand why they have to pay and until the [profanity removed] pay
    Last edited by CityGuard; 18 August 2006 at 1:12 pm.

  6. #6
    kidd75219's Avatar
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    Somebody please edit his last post. WE DO NOT USE FOUL LANGUAGE HERE.
    Randall Ashby (Randy)

    Easy Money Casinos

  7. #7
    Caruso is offline Public Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by kidd75219
    Somebody please edit his last post. WE DO NOT USE FOUL LANGUAGE HERE.
    But we do allow ourselves to call players "scammers", eh, Kidd75219? That's OK, but calling a casino for what it is, isn't? Care to justify this?


    Quote Originally Posted by kidd75219
    Well, why did you use GBP if you're not from Great Britain? The only reason I can see is to scam the casino out of a higher bonus because of the exchange rate.
    Why is signing up to receive a relatively larger bonus a "scam", Kidd75219? Care to explain this one, too?

    I hope I don't stumble along any of your portals any time soon.

    Anyway: the reason casinos encourage dollar-based players to deposit in GBP is because GBP are worth more to the casino, assuming the signup is a sucker. Of course, the casino will inevitably hook bonus hunters along the way. At this point, casino double standards kick in and they don't want to pay the larger amount.

    THIS is the "scam". The player is NOT.

  8. #8
    kidd75219's Avatar
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by kidd75219
    Somebody please edit his last post. WE DO NOT USE FOUL LANGUAGE HERE.


    But we do allow ourselves to call players "scammers", eh, Kidd75219? That's OK, but calling a casino for what it is, isn't? Care to justify this?


    Quote:
    Originally Posted by kidd75219
    Well, why did you use GBP if you're not from Great Britain? The only reason I can see is to scam the casino out of a higher bonus because of the exchange rate.


    Why is signing up to receive a relatively larger bonus a "scam", Kidd75219? Care to explain this one, too?

    I hope I don't stumble along any of your portals any time soon.

    Anyway: the reason casinos encourage dollar-based players to deposit in GBP is because GBP are worth more to the casino, assuming the signup is a sucker. Of course, the casino will inevitably hook bonus hunters along the way. At this point, casino double standards kick in and they don't want to pay the larger amount.

    THIS is the "scam". The player is NOT.

    In the first place, I did not call anybody a scammer. I said it was the only reason I could see. And whether or not I do call somebody else a scammer, it is none of your friggin' business.

    I just stated a fact about the profanity use. If you disagree and want to use profanity, then go somewhere else.
    Randall Ashby (Randy)

    Easy Money Casinos

  9. #9
    Caruso is offline Public Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by kidd75219
    In the first place, I did not call anybody a scammer. I said it was the only reason I could see. And whether or not I do call somebody else a scammer, it is none of your friggin' business.
    Of course it's my "friggin' business" - don't be so childish. You posted your response on a public board. It's the business of anybody who feels inclined to comment.

    You said "The only reason I can see is to scam the casino out of a higher bonus because of the exchange rate." Why is depositing in a legitimate currency a "scam"? You still haven't explained this.


    I just stated a fact about the profanity use. If you disagree and want to use profanity, then go somewhere else.
    I don't disagree, and don't want to use profanity. I want you to stop making baseless allegations against a player. You are the one using "substitute profanity" - we all know what "friggin" means.

    Advantage players have done a lot of good for this industry. Try to hate them less, hard though that is for you.

  10. #10
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    Hey Kidd,

    Cool it

    Caruso didn't use any profanity - two wrongs don't make a right.

    He is respected on the boards, is a long-time poster, and is usually helpful in circumstances like these - quite well known as a players' advocate.

    Many casinos encourage GBP depositing and Doolally is right, sometimes it's a better deal.

    ntaus

  11. #11
    ebruduck is offline New Member
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    Don't you all agree that they have to pay in USD or EURO ?

    I made a honest mistake and open in currency I was not allowed.

    In the cashier it said desired currency and not supported currency.

    ok, I made a mistake and did not check the terms of use, don't you all agree that this is not a reason to confiscate winnings, I did not committed any fraud, they should pay but in the currency I was allowed to play don't they ?

    is there any affiliate that work with clubworld (right now they are RTG) that may help? I feel they really screw me around using lame a lame excuse not to pay.
    Last edited by ebruduck; 26 August 2006 at 4:02 am.

  12. #12
    Topboss is offline Private Member
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    Whilst I agree that they shouldn't pay you in GPB - I do feel that they should pay you the equivalent in US Dollars or Euro - or even half of the winnings as a gesture of goodwill.

    I wonder if they would have returned your deposits to you if you had lost ?? (with a note saying they should not have accepted it in the first place etc etc.)

  13. #13
    1CasinoListing's Avatar
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    Hi Topboss.

    Although I do agree with your last statement, I guess the answer will be that it was the players own responsibilty and therefore they forfeited their money.

    Of course there is the problem of "Did the player not adhere to the Terms and Conditions knowingly" or "unknowingly". The player that tried to fool the casinos will most of the time say unknowingly even though he / she was fully aware of the terms, likewise the casino that takes this stance will most of the time opt for the "knowingly" side.

    A very sticky situation.

    Having said that much, whether I play in Dollard, Euros or Pounds, if I have to wager the bonus or bonus and deposit x times before I can cash in I can see no advantage. Whether I have to wager $100 30 times or £100 30 times, the chances of winning etc. don't change. The only difference is that I win more if I do win. But I also lose more...

    I think at the moment I get 1.8 dollars to the GBP. So if I loose a £100 I loose $180. As the casino has the edge I would expect that overall the currency should not really matter. In a singular case like this, yes the casino would have lost out. But they would have the same problem if the player had come from the UK.

  14. #14
    ebruduck is offline New Member
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    I saw at the terms desired amount and did not read the term of use, I did read the ptomorion terms and nothing was mentioned there.

    I played blackjack and won, I am asked them to pay instead of 2050 GBP 2050 USD

    They refused, I think it is a bad sign and bad behavior.

    This is why I am pissed, this is why I am asking someone who works with them to explain them the situation that they should pay the amount in USD or the currency they think they should pay.

    Confiscating the winnings only because the wrong currency was used is not acceptible

    I played when their software was Chartwell technology, now they are RTG.

  15. #15
    1CasinoListing's Avatar
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    Can you tell us why CasinoMeister decided in favour of the casino? Is there maybe more to this story then you are leading us to believe?

  16. #16
    ebruduck is offline New Member
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    The casinomeister did not decide in favor of the casino.

    Casinomeister helped me with a no pay issue with Swiss casino and they paid me.

    The casinomeister contacted the casino and they told him they are not going to pay.

    I got an email from Bryan Bailey that I am not going to publish that the casino seems to be firm on not paying me.

    He never mentioned he is in favor of the casino.

    He probably would not blacklist them because it was written in the terms and also because he does not like to help player that won with a bonus inside their cashous.

    If you take a look at what is going on at the Casinomeister website you can see that the casinoemeister will not help players that won using a bonus and the casinos decided not to pay the, especially if a large amount is involved and then the casino has the "right" to protect themselves.
    Last edited by ebruduck; 30 August 2006 at 5:59 pm.

  17. #17
    Caruso is offline Public Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1CasinoListing
    Can you tell us why CasinoMeister decided in favour of the casino? Is there maybe more to this story then you are leading us to believe?
    Even if this were the case - which, as has already been pointed out, it isn't - the decision of a webmaster with the kind of negative attitude towards players that Bailey has shown himself to have on the basis of recent decisions, would hardly be relevant.

    As to there being "more to this story then you are leading us to believe", the facts are simple enough - why this implication that he might be withholding something?

    1) The cashier stated "choose your desired currency".

    2) The player chose his desired currency.

    3) The casino confiscated his winnings on the basis of a contradictory term buried elsewhere on the site.

    What "more" are you looking for?


    Quote Originally Posted by topboss
    Whilst I agree that they shouldn't pay you in GPB - I do feel that they should pay you the equivalent in US Dollars or Euro - or even half of the winnings as a gesture of goodwill.
    They should pay half, on the basis that the USD is almost exactly half the GBP currently. Not as a goodwill gesture - there is no goodwill whatsoever on display here - but as the right resolution on the basis of the "contradictory" term the responsibility of the placing of which is with the casino. It is not the player's responsibility to interpret "desired currency" as "native currency".

  18. #18
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    Fine... I just sit here and nod.

    "At the website they had a link called cashier at the home page, it stated there "play at your desired currency", I remember the word desire, it was there and had been removed after I intervene the casinomeister then they changed it to your supported currencies."

    As it was AFTER CasinoMeister intervened, I can only assume that CasinoMeister has seen this as well. Do any of you (ebruduck, Caruso, CasinoMeister) have proof that it said play in your desired currency before he intervened?

    Please correct me if I am wrong. The old CWC was a no-download Flash casino? Don't you agree that the Terms of use are then normally on the website and not in an agreement you see when you install the software?

    "At the terms of use they had a term that you may not open the account at GBP if you are not from England but it was a complete discrepancy with the sentence at the cashier, open your desired currency."

    If the non-UK players can not play in GBP applies in general, not just for the bonus, why would they put this info in the bonus terms and conditions? I would put it in the general Terms and Conditions or like they did in the Terms of Use. These are the Terms under which you are allowed to play at their casino regardless of the bonus.

    Although I think under normal circumstances it should not make a difference if a player deposits in GBP, USD or Euros as I already stated above, there can be other circumstances for the casino to not allow play in certain currencies. Have any of you spoken to the casino and asked why this term was in place in the first place? Have any of you asked the casino what they have done when players deposited in GBP whilst according to the terms of use they were not allowed to do so?

    I have checked at CasinoMeister and found this thread: http://xxwww.casinomeister.com/forum...my-2-cent.html.

    I know it is about their new RTG casino, but all I see is positive feedback. Quick payment etc.

    One of the problems I have with this issue is that ebruduck does state himself that it said in the Terms of Use that only players from England were allowed to play in GBP (or at least something in those words as normally they would have used "UK" or "United Kingdom" otherwise where does that leave the Scottish and Welsh players?). In the first post it appears as if he did read the Terms of Use and did see it as he states "but it was a complete discrepancy with the sentence at the cashier". In another post he says he did not read the Terms of Use. A bit confusing when you read it all.

  19. #19
    CityGuard's Avatar
    CityGuard is offline Former GPWA Program Manager
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    There are a lot of issues here, both in terms of questions of fact and questions of what constitutes fairness.

    1) Did the player violate casino policy?

    2) Do/does casino policy proscribe a specific response to the alleged violation(s)? Relatedly, under what conditions do/does casino policy permit confiscation of funds?

    3) Are the Terms of Use applied consistently? If not, what motivated enforcement of Terms of Use in this case?

    4) Do relevant supervisory bodies (software providers, regulatory agencies, etc.) prohibit the types of policies enacted by the casino?

    In a judgement of fairness concerning law and procedure, adherence under these policy questions is sufficient. However, in a judgment of fairness concerning reputability and publicity, it is not sufficient that policy be abided by -- the policy itself must be fair. (Of course, any policy would be more fair than the same actions taken without prior notification through publicly-available policy.)

    This create a fourth question:
    If a specific response to policy violation is outlined or authorized by casino policy, is that response appropriate to the type of violation?

    I would like to look into this case further, and wanted to present these questions as a starting point before getting into the facts of the case. I've got a number of other cases I'm working on behind the scenes, so I am unlikely to get to this right away -- but I wanted to put these questions out there to get a sense of whether people thought these made sense as a basis for judging fairness.

  20. #20
    ebruduck is offline New Member
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    Ok Here are some facts :

    1. I did not read the terms of use before I started playing only the promotion terms for the bonus I got

    2. It said desired currency and then they amended it but I have no proof to that statement. The casinomeister emailed me and mentioned what they told him, they told him supported currency , he should not have any proof himself.

    3. In the terms of use there was a line between many lines that stated that only players from the UK are allowed to play in GBP BUT it did not mentioned anything such as we will confiscate winnings is such a thing happens.

    The account was opened in GBP because it was my desired currency.

    The word desired express one thing to me, we as a casino will be more than happy to take any money and any currency from you and pay you if you are lucky to win.

    This is the word desired to me. I don't have any proof but I remember that and sure 100%.

    I am sure many people are making mistakes in currency like that in many casinos.

    The casino should say, listen player, you violated the terms therefore we closed your account and opened a USD account for you and you will have to suffer losing the difference in currency.

    We therefore pay you 2050 USD and not 2050 GBP, this is acceptible.

    To tell a player, listen you violated the terms, we deny your games winnings, we deny the words desired.

    We are going to erase your winnings and bring your balance to zero, this 5s totally not acceptable

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