@CrazyRewards - how are these games not fixed? (they are not - see below)

[Former Member 14]

This seems like a pretty standard sort of multiple-payline slot game to me. If you play lots of paylines it will be pretty common for one or more of them to win on each spin.

You think so? Name me one online slot which pays a win on every spin?



Cheers



Dave

[Fergie]

Using your theory of more pay-lines = more wins.
Please explain why MGS Dolphin Coast a 3125 pay-way slot doesn't produce a win every time - FYI that's 3,125 possible ways to win.

For someone who promotes casinos and recommends games to players, you really are clueless!

Edit: If your that bored go watch the grass grow - don't come here trying to push my buttons with your hidden agendas.


Regards

Dave

I'm sorry if you thought I was pushing your buttons, Dave. I just wanted to account for the why the results appear fixed to you, and how the outcome actually was within slot norms.

Have you tried the game with real money yet to compare the results? I am interested to see how that turns out. No agenda here, I swear!

[Former Member 14]

Hi All,

Had an interesting phone call with iTech Labs in Melbourne (Aust) today. Learned something new which completely busted a myth for me.

Until that phone call, I was under the misapprehension when a casino state's its RNG has been audited, it doesn't automatically mean their games have also been audited to use with the certified RNG.

Such is the case here with NeoGames - those used at slotsandgames.com
http://www.itechlabs.com.au/certific...ate_080108.pdf

Whilst the above RNG is operating within expected boundaries and is certified, how the RNG is used is entirely up to the gaming software developers.

Meaning, unless iTech Labs actually audited each game (which they did not), the gaming software provider can use this RNG anyway they like. For instance a slot machine can look like a slot but pay-like a scratch card.

The same goes for Video Poker and exactly what took place at Slotland.com. Their Video Poker looked like Jacks or Better but they (slotland) failed to disclose to players it functioned like a slot machine. You can read how that story unfolded over at CM forum.

I believe that was reason CM stopped promoting Slotland.

Well by this point I wanted more information...So I called another Australian RNG testing lab and spent the best part of 30 minutes soaking up more information about this topic.

What I've brought away from that discussion is pretty straight forward.

If an RNG meets lab testing protocols and it passes these tests, it will be be given certification as a certified RNG.

In relationship to online gaming software using a certified RNG.
Unless each game has been individually audited to using the RNG for each given game style and outcome, no one should assume any online casino game meets industry standards or compliance.

Hence in these cases, just because a slot, VP machine or any other casino games looks like a slot, VP et al...It doesn't automatically mean it's programmed to play like that game.

In relationship to slotsandgames.com.

Even though they state "There is a 1 in 3 overall chance of winning a Prize on each game", they should also spell out in BLACK and WHITE if any games they offer for real wagering do not operate as one would expect any given game to operate as.

Meaning if a slot only looks like a slot but is using a simulation of another game to determine its win/lose outcomes, state this in BLACK and WHITE to players.

Just Like Slotland now does (unfortunately carefully hidden):
xxxhttp://www.slotland.com/jacksorbetter/preview.html (view footer).

"Please note that all Slotland games share the same mechanism which determines the jackpot win. Therefore, the probability of hitting the jackpot combination on JacksOrBetter is not natural but controlled by this shared random mechanism in the same way as slot machines' wins."

After researching the above today, I've come to the conclusion even though the games offered at slotsandgames.com are likely not to be fixed, rigged or tweaked per-say they are in my opinion misleading and therefore are likely to have players wagering real money on games that are not what they appear to be.

I would suggest if this is the case with regard to slotsandgames.com and any other online gaming venues using this software, they should amend and state these facts (clearly in black and white) to anyone who visits their online gaming site. In my opinion by not giving clear and full disclosure it's misleading.


Regards

Dave

[Former Member 14]

For completeness and if anyone's interested, here's the Jacks or Better VP machine preview before Slotland.com disclosed it was a slot machine.

http://replay.waybackmachine.org/200...r/preview.html

http://www.slotland.com/jacksorbetter/preview.html (present day with full disclosure)

[Caruso]

If you play lots of paylines it will be pretty common for one or more of them to win on each spin.

I agree with Dave on this.

Although I pride myself in having toss all experience with slots in comparison to your average junkie, I have played a certain amount. I have never seen a slot that returns something on EVERY single bet. I'll also lay a pound to a penny there are no others that behave like this.

Again, whether good or bad in the overall context of slots...you choose.

[Caruso]

Whilst the above RNG is operating within expected boundaries and is certified, how the RNG is used is entirely up to the gaming software developers.

Of course. Frankly, the word "RNG" is in itself little more than marketing nonsense in context.

All softwares use a a random RNG - you need something to generate the numbers. But how those numbers are applied to the graphic representations of the reels, cards etc is totally up to whoever's responsible for the software.

Blackjack and video poker are "random" when each card is mapped to equally-weighted numbers. If, for example, in a blackjack game the aces and tens were all mapped to fewer numbers, then the game would no longer be "random" in the sense that we understand the word, and it would have a lower theoretical return to the player, but it WOULD be random insofar as the RNG used to generate said numbers was functioning correctly.

The word "random" really is no more than yet another online gambling con.

Read all about slots here:

http://wizardofodds.com/slots

[Former Member 14]

Of course. Frankly, the word "RNG" is in itself little more than marketing nonsense in context.

The word "random" really is no more than yet another online gambling con.

That pretty much defines the information I was given by the two people I spoke with yesterday.

If that's not enough to sink ya boat, weighted reels can be added to the mix. Removing individual game icons & or swapping their positions on the reel(s). I may also surmise a slot could also be programmed in a Similar manner to the principle you've explained below:

If, for example, in a blackjack game the aces and tens were all mapped to fewer numbers, then the game would no longer be "random" in the sense that we understand the word, and it would have a lower theoretical return to the player, but it WOULD be random insofar as the RNG used to generate said numbers was functioning correctly.

You know, the more technical info I get on this stuff the more I start thinking WTF - am I part of the con too

Guess what I'll be doing for the next week - checking each and every casino I promote to make sure they've had their games audited - not just their RNG certified.


Cheers



Dave

[Former Member 14]

This seems like a pretty standard sort of multiple-payline slot game to me. If you play lots of paylines it will be pretty common for one or more of them to win on each spin.

You think so? Name me one online slot which pays a win on every spin?

Is no response an indicator you have no answer...or...

Have you not replied because your too busy playing every online slot in hope of finding an answer...


Cheers



Dave

[MichaelCorfman]

Is no response an indicator you have no answer...or...

Have you not replied because your too busy playing every online slot in hope of finding an answer...

The lack of response before now was that I had not been back to look at the thread since I originally posted until a few minutes ago.

What I was trying to say before is that it is quite common to win on multiple-payline slot games. There are definitely games where it happens more often than not. Vin tells me that is true of the Wizard of Oz land-based slot game as one very popular example.

I was responding in a context where the allegation implied some sort of cheating was going on, that is not true. It is easy to design a slot game with multiple paylines that pays back quite often, or even all the time, and have it be a completely fair game.

Now, it does seem that this particular game has set the probabilities so that the chance of not winning back something is vanishingly small. Maybe they have even set a record for how low that probability happens to be for this game. In that case, they have taken a well established concept in slot game design and taken it to a new limit. I would call that innovation and not fraud.

On the other hand, the question about a game looking like video poker but not playing that way is a different issue, and one that I could see being a real source of more legitimate confusion.

Michael

[oc+]

Aussie Dave you have far too much time on your hands