Enough

At the risk of pissing off a few, I'm going to go ahead and say what I believe the majority of us are thinking...ENOUGH ALREADY!

I'm posting this at both CAP and GPWA, as there is no bias in my thoughts. I have respect and admiration for all involved, each contributing something unique and incredibly valuable to this industry.

I don't know where, when, why or how things fell apart. I don't believe any one party is more responsible for this mess over the other. What I'm witnessing, however, is what IMO, is reminiscent of the early days of the ez-boards with a bunch of he-said/she-said, I'll sue you/you'll sue me, blah, blah, blah.

Everytime I read/hear that "I'm taking the high road," or "I'm not stooping to their level," it still seems to happen.

We're all adults here. One of the great things with this business is that while we may not always agree on things, we've always managed to somehow get along. This is especially true with important industry events.

We're coming up on two important industry events and I have this notion that it's going to be very uncomfortable--not just for those who are scrapping in the mud, but for everyone. We don't need this right now. With the economy in the toilet and changes in the US administration, we have important issues to deal with in London. We don't need to have to worry about who is in the room with whom or dealing with awkward discomfort that this sort of situation creates.

For those who are not attending the London events, but look to CAP and/or GPWA as places for knowledge, news and cameraderie, they don't deserve these distractions. It's wholly unprofessional.

I encourage and urge all sides to come to a cease-fire. I believe we'd all be thrilled to see some sort of meeting between the principals involved to hopefully peacefully resolve their issues.

At the end of the day, this is a very small industry. There is plenty of room for everyone and there's no reason that success should not be attainable for everyone putting in the hard yards.

I truly hope I've made myself clear in that I have no side in this and I'm not pointing fingers at any one particular person or interest. I just really want to see what is best for the industry happen, in what is a very difficult and stressful time for everyone.

I've personally had it with all the fighting, etc.

Thanks for saying it so clearly DJ

I know i don't want to come out to events if i have to choose sides.

I don't want to post on boards if the next day people are going to be play Mike Wallace and treat me like Saddam Hussein.

Thank you for putting into words that I could not find DJ! :clap:

I was on the phone with another affiliate just today and mentioned that I'm almost afraid to attend a place where we are ALL in the same building or room because I would not be surprised to see a fist fight break out over this type of stuff. :(

I cut way back on my posting FOR ALOT OF THESE reasons.

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Originally Posted by DJ Silver

ENOUGH ALREADY!

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Yes Please!!!

I don't know if I fully agree with this thread.

I'm not a CAP member - so I am a bit biased. But there has been a whole host of things that really get me upset coming from over there. The reported treatment of Affiliate Guarddog and APCW, Things i've heard about their thoughts on CAC, Mixed information about their interests in CardSpike and Affiliate SpeedPay... There is so much out there some of it has to be true. They seem to be out for blood - and others should quietly accept it? Multiple times we've seen people request threads be closed here - because it isn't flattering to their image. And how many people have they banned simply for expressing their opinions?

If there is no need for discussion - then there would be no discussion. These threads aren't coming solely from the ownership here. They are coming from webmasters who are concerned about the anti-competitive tactics and standoffish relationships CAP has forged.

GG.

You know when there's a sniff of a rogue, folk get searching and start digging.

CM digs and collects numbers at conferences and so on. You worked there. You know rogues are outed in the most public way.

Just because it's MC digging around LF, does'nt mean it should'nt happen. You are not really saying you'd cover up for a rogue, or keep quiet, surely.

Actually, it's about time the GPWA got a bit more forward when it comes to outing rogues in this industry, rather than working with them.

You know i'm right.

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Originally Posted by matted

I don't know if I fully agree with this thread.

I'm not a CAP member - so I am a bit biased. But there has been a whole host of things that really get me upset coming from over there. The reported treatment of Affiliate Guarddog and APCW, Things i've heard about their thoughts on CAC, Mixed information about their interests in CardSpike and Affiliate SpeedPay... There is so much out there some of it has to be true. They seem to be out for blood - and others should quietly accept it? Multiple times we've seen people request threads be closed here - because it isn't flattering to their image. And how many people have they banned simply for expressing their opinions?

If there is no need for discussion - then there would be no discussion. These threads aren't coming solely from the ownership here. They are coming from webmasters who are concerned about the anti-competitive tactics and standoffish relationships CAP has forged.

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'

I agree with you here, I think you need to look at WHO is bullying who here and WHO is the one threatening lawsuits daily. Hint: It is not PAL, GPWA, or AFD.. It is CAP/PAP.

I think CAP's motivation is pretty obvious and like the APCW video yesterday, they did not bother to respond to any of the facts or questions in the video, they just wanted to act like a victim when it is the webmasters and poker rooms that pay for advertising with them that are the ones being harmed.

I agree that all this drama is silly, but we have the choice of allowing ourselves to be bullied ot to stand up and say enough is enough and expose the blatant lies and deception of Lou and warren.

Anyone that honestly thinks that CAP is a victim here does not have all the facts are is ignoring the obvious. Why do you think they have banned everyone who tried to bring this issue to resolution? What are they hiding?

I was banned after making this post at PAP, and after I was banned some of my post was deleted and my custom title was edited by Warren. (classy)

http://www.pokeraffiliateprograms.co...e-payment.html

What is their motivation? I am just trying to get my money, thankfully Cake is finally working on getting me paid.

I fyou want a good idea of the events in order, check out this article here and the articles linked within the story.. Or simply do a search for cardspike..

http://www.pokeraffiliatebible.com/c...ing-scam-site/

Thanks Matt for your post and I agree with some points made in this thread as well. Were these issues avoidable...in most cases yes and they are still fixable but until people realize that lawyers aren't the answer it wont happen.

How can this be resolved. Well for starters I think the C&D's and threats made to other members of our community need to stop. People need to own their actions and take responsibility for them and not foot the bill on someone else and play the blame game. This industry is sooo huge that there is no reason for anyone to think that they need to monopolize a certain market and I feel alot of this stems from that.

I think with the way things are going people are definatly making it alot harder on themselves then it needs to be. The majority of whats transpired over the last few months was completely avoidable... work smarter not harder

What we are discussing on these forums over the last couple of weeks stems alot from CardSpike. Had affiliates been paid when they were supposed to, and the ability to discuss the issues as well as management taking control like they should have none of this would have happened. Affiliates stood up and were tired of being bullied. I do understand that people's livlihoods could be at stake however I think some people have forgotten whats at stake for some affiliates.

Not everyone is a super baller affiliate and for many, and for those who offer rakeback this was a huge deal. I am just learning the casino side of things and seeing the swings but as a poker affiliate on mgr when your stats say you have earned xxxx you can pretty much guarantee your rev was that. Which of course means you count on that income. Secondly, trust is by far the most important aspect of this industry. For a rakeback affiliate this is no different and their business relies heavly on that trust. Their targetted audience are savvy players and in order for a rakeback affiliate to do some solid numbers they need to earn that trust. What happens when a player doesnt get paid? Do they speak with the room? No they go right to the affiliate who sold them on a rakeback plan. When that player continues to have payment issues, they will warn other players that the "affiliate" is in the wrong. This puts the affiliate who sent those players income in jeopardy. These people definatly have a right to be upset, to ask questions and demand an answer without threats of litigation.

Its because of the problems of CS that affiliates are now questioning people and rightly so. People who are supposed to be involved screwed over affiliates. Its affiliates who make these forums, who send traffic to the majority of these low key poker rooms and without them some people would not be making money.

Its still very much fixable just people are choosing to take the hard way in resoloving these issues.

Let's Play "Spin" the CAP

Dear friends,

I don't post too much anymore. There are far too many things that keep me occupied, and I cannot allow myself to be pulled into pointless debates that have no end. That said, I feel this is one occasion that a post from myself is warranted because this is a particularly important time in our industry.

Earlier this evening, Warren Jolly made a post at CAP which was an weakly disguised attempt to divert your attentions from what's going on in regard to the Cardspike situation. There were a lot of accusations in his post which --- to the best of my knowledge --- are all completely false.

I will not elaborate any further because Michael likes to handle these things himself and I respect that. Besides, the truth will all soon be out. I just wanted to make certain you all remember not to believe the spin that CAP is pulling by trying to make themselves into the victims.

Please do not allow these feable attempts by CAP to take your attention away from the Cardspike situation. That's what they are trying to do.
You are all far too intelligent to fall for this simple ploy, and I hope you see this as a desperate act by desperate people... because that's all it is.

.

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Originally Posted by Integrity

Let's Play "Spin" the CAP

I will not elaborate any further because Michael likes to handle these things himself and I respect that. Besides, the truth will all soon be out.

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IF there is definite proof, why all this drama? Just post it up, be done with it!!!

It may not be possible to publically post material from private sources.

These are fairly damning accusations being made here, IMO, combined with a hell of a lot of uncertainty and confusion.

In a situation like this, if you can't, or don't want to post the indisputable proof, you shouldn't publicly post at all. JMO.

I realize that CAP and The GPWA have quite a few foes, and there is Bad Blood on both sides.
I doubt that will ever change unfortunately.

I wouldn't support an accusation against the GPWA, or anyone else for that matter without 100% proof, and I'm not going to support one against CAP without 100% proof either.

That's what is fair.

Cap has publicly stated they have no ownership in CardSpike whatsoever.
I tend to believe that.

The only question that seems to remain unanswered is if they had a hand in the Affiliate Management Arm of CardSpike.

I would like to see a clear statement made on that specific question, or one of you folks that claim to have the Proof Positive, POST IT right here.

Witholding critical information and Turning this thing into a "U-Tube" Video series is misguided, and wrong.:thumbsdown:

The attached screen shot is from one of the several conversations I've had with Warren Jolly, which is in direct conflict with several statements CAP has made including the one here: http://www.onlinecasinoreports.com/n...ap-comment.php

OK, good.

Now let's focus! :-)

The accusation that CAP owned CardSpike was incorrect.
Do we all agree on that point?

We are solid on the fact that Effective Media is owned by CAP.
Do we all agree on that?

So,..... thru the CAP owners, via Effective Media, they ran the Affiliate program for CardSpike, and Greg was just an employee.

I would like to respectfully ask that Warren or Lou acknowledge this or Deny it.

If they did run it, then I would like to know why this wasn't disclosed up front, and who was responsible for distributing the Money to the Affiliates?
IE: Did Effective Media receive the funds to pay affiliates with, or was this the responsibility of the CardSpike owners?

Conversely, if CAP's only involvement was to market the Aff. Program, and paying affiliates was not under their control, then how damning should this be to CAP?

This thread started off as a CAP owns CardSpike thread which is a far cry different from running their Affiliate Program,... more or less as a Master Affiliate.

I can remember before Brightshare was formed. At that time Jackpot Factory also had a Master affiliate set up with PayMaster Casinos that essentially took over from Spiral Solutions.

Nobody was overly bothered by that, and there were no problems that I'm aware of.
So, if this turns out to be the extent of CAP's involvement, then how damning is this really?

Other than they chose a ****** Program to work with, and were not up front with Affiliates about their involvement in the Affiliate Program,..... OR, was their involvment as the Affiliate Arm in fact public info?
I honestly don't know since I don't do much on the Poker front.

I have another couple questions. When did Effective Media go into Business and do they have any other clients?I say this because i own several businesses myself and sometimes we have created another company and the only client is another business I own .Sometimes you do this when you take on a new partner on specific projects etc.
I am not suggesting this happened here but if that business was created just for cardspike account and they hired greg to be the affiliate manager to me that is a serious conflict of interest even if the ties go no futher than this.

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sometimes we have created another company and the only client is another business I own

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It's not unusal for people to have several Corporations.

I have had several over the years, and there's nothing whatsoever wrong with that.

If you have a nice Corp that is making money, you don't want anyone to be able to pierce your corporate shell for a failed venture.

The only thing in question,{just my thoughts at this point BTW}, is did CAP own the Company that ran the Affiliate Arm for CardSpike?
No big deal if they did, but they should have told everyone this upfront.

If everyone is paid now as they claim, then the only thing left is for CAP to take ownership of the mistake, and promise to be up front in the future if they are going to run an AFF program on the side! JMO on this.

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Originally Posted by TheCPA

OK, good.

Now let's focus! :-)

The accusation that CAP owned CardSpike was incorrect.
Do we all agree on that point?

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That has not been proven by Randy, he only provided some information to back up his claims. So as far as ownership goes that is still very much in the air, since some people can not post on what they cant back.

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We are solid on the fact that Effective Media is owned by CAP.
Do we all agree on that?

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Owned by people who are running cap...yes

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So,..... thru the CAP owners, via Effective Media, they ran the Affiliate program for CardSpike, and Greg was just an employee.

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I would like to respectfully ask that Warren or Lou acknowledge this or Deny it.

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That would be intersting

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If they did run it, then I would like to know why this wasn't disclosed up front, and who was responsible for distributing the Money to the Affiliates?
IE: Did Effective Media receive the funds to pay affiliates with, or was this the responsibility of the CardSpike owners?

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C Who was in control of those funds I cant say but why was one affiliate provided with partial payment from Warren and asked to keep quiet about his complaints on CS

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Conversely, if CAP's only involvement was to market the Aff. Program, and paying affiliates was not under their control, then how damning should this be to CAP?

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Why would threads at PAP be removed or edited when an affiliate complained? Why was there no one from CAP to speak up in the arbitration forum till things got nasty> Why have people received C&D's who spoke up about CardSpike and why were affiliates banned?

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This thread started off as a CAP owns CardSpike thread which is a far cry different from running their Affiliate Program,... more or less as a Master Affiliate

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.No originally the thread started from me pointing out links to other sources which were showing complaints of a rogue program. Whether they owned it or not there has been alot of dishonesty.

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I can remember before Brightshare was formed. At that time Jackpot Factory also had a Master affiliate set up with PayMaster Casinos that essentially took over from Spiral Solutions.

Nobody was overly bothered by that, and there were no problems that I'm aware of.
So, if this turns out to be the extent of CAP's involvement, then how damning is this really?

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They lied, they banned, they deleted, they made threats...I dont know of any other affiliate program which does that or has done that do you? If this was an honest mistake then stop the threats and own it. Its not that hard, and everyone could move on.

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Other than they chose a ****** Program to work with, and were not up front with Affiliates about their involvement in the Affiliate Program,..... OR, was their involvment as the Affiliate Arm in fact public info?

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No affiliates speciifically asked in this thread if PAP/CAP own CardSpike and the answer was no...after multiple promise to pay and all that crap it eventually got locked as most threads did. http://www.pokeraffiliateprograms.co...-rakeback.html

Not everyone has been paid, one affiliate is going through cake and not sure if there are still otehrs as well or if this is just one person in particular

Anyway I just wanted to answer your questions. I wont be replying to either thread anymore since I have said what I wanted and tried to answer the questions I could answer.

What difference does it make? Cap denied any involvement with CS yet we have seen that they did in fact have an interest as has been shown here with the effective media. Already there is deception with the CAP statement that they were 'no way involved'. Really, how much proof do you need? We need a blood oath? If this were the GIA, the GPWA, the APCW, CM we would be all over that like brown on rice. Because its CAP we have to use kid gloves?

Let's chill and grab some popcorn (GT is going to yell at me again :lol:) and see. If cap didn't do anything wrong then they have nothing to worry about do they.

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Originally Posted by TheCPA

The accusation that CAP owned CardSpike was incorrect.

Do we all agree on that point?

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It's an allegation, not an accusation.

On what basis is this statement made, that it was "incorrect"? You believe 1) Michael was full of it and 2) CAP's word should somehow be taken at face value?

You remember the player database issue, where Fabiano made the absurd suggestion that someone had "hacked" into his accunt to make the post he made? There is a substantial precedent for the most absurd denial by CAP.

Michael clearly was not lying when he said that reliable sources linked Cardspike ownership with CAP, and after that database matter I would not take "good morning" from CAP at face value.