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  1. #21
    fadetoblack is offline Private Member
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    You are even using my images, how dare you claim this is original content?
    I have asked you to let me know which images were from your site. My designer is yet to reply to my message so I don't know which ones you are claiming are copied.

  2. #22
    bonusbetting is offline Private Member
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    You asking so that you can avoid the DMCA. I can prove it's my work. Last chance before I file the DMCA.
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  3. #23
    fadetoblack is offline Private Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by bonusbetting View Post
    You asking so that you can avoid the DMCA. I can prove it's my work. Last chance before I file the DMCA.
    I am asking because I don't know Ben. I am asking nicely for you to tell me. You want this sorted out so why can't you do that?

    I have taken down the table for now until we can work out exactly which parts are causing the issue.

  4. #24
    bonusbetting is offline Private Member
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    Thank you. If it goes up again, I'll file straight away. Work it out yourself.

    I am happy to provide evidence to GPWA staff.
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  5. #25
    fadetoblack is offline Private Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by bonusbetting View Post
    Thank you. If it goes up again, I'll file straight away. Work it out yourself.

    I am happy to provide evidence to GPWA staff.
    Ben, if I make another table, to avoid problems it would be advantageous for you to give me the details rather than be difficult about it.

    Any table I do is going to have a bookmaker image, rating, and all the same headings.

    Were the ticks, crosses and stars created by you?

  6. #26
    bonusbetting is offline Private Member
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    You are extremely lucky I didn't just file the DMCA earlier and I am not going to talk to you any further, because I am liable to say something I regret.
    You clearly have no regard for the GPWA code of conduct and I will be asking the staff to review your membership.
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  7. #27
    fadetoblack is offline Private Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by bonusbetting View Post
    You are extremely lucky I didn't just file the DMCA earlier and I am not going to talk to you any further, because I am liable to say something I regret.
    You clearly have no regard for the GPWA code of conduct and I will be asking the staff to review your membership.
    As I told you before this was not at all intentional, but you aren't really helping yourself with the problem though. Unless you can tell me which parts are yours similar problems could arise in the future. Not answering questions points to the fact the maybe the images aren't yours. I don't know this, but you don't seem to want to answer the question.

  8. #28
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    Bonusbeting has been in contact with us and Fadetoblack has agreed to make changes to the table.

    Lets focus on the positive and not get caught up in a back and forth argument at this stage.
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  10. #29
    fadetoblack is offline Private Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
    Bonusbeting has been in contact with us and Fadetoblack has agreed to make changes to the table.

    Lets focus on the positive and not get caught up in a back and forth argument at this stage.
    Of course. I am willing to make the changes as I have already said. I need Ben's cooperation though to make sure there aren't any problems with the revised table.

  11. #30
    bonusbetting is offline Private Member
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    You have pushed things way past the stage of co-operation. Clearly, you don't know which parts are my copyright, and I am not going to tell you so that you can publish a table which is just a tiny bit different to avoid a DMCA.

    I am happy to give evidence to GPWA staff.

    If you publish a table with any of my identifiable work in it, you will get a DMCA. I have been building websites for 12 years and I am quite clever about making sure I can identify my work.

    Even if you rebuild it from scratch with just enough differences to escape the legal definitions, you are clearly violating the GPWA code of conduct and your ethics are highly questionable.

    What I suggest is that you come up with your own content

    I'm off to have a beer and watch the game, do whatever you like. You will anyway.
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  12. #31
    fadetoblack is offline Private Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by bonusbetting View Post
    You have pushed things way past the stage of co-operation. Clearly, you don't know which parts are my copyright, and I am not going to tell you so that you can publish a table which is just a tiny bit different to avoid a DMCA.

    I am happy to give evidence to GPWA staff.

    If you publish a table with any of my identifiable work in it, you will get a DMCA. I have been building websites for 12 years and I am quite clever about making sure I can identify my work.

    Even if you rebuild it from scratch with just enough differences to escape the legal definitions, you are clearly violating the GPWA code of conduct and your ethics are highly questionable.

    What I suggest is that you come up with your own content

    I'm off to have a beer and watch the game, do whatever you like. You will anyway.
    I have done my best to cooperate at every stage of this conversation. I am trying to work this out with you, but you aren't letting me.

  13. #32
    fadetoblack is offline Private Member
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    I haven't yet been able to contact my designer due to it being the weekend, but I have found where he got the code from.

    All the code is open source -the javascript, html and css (links below). It was designed and made by a guy called Christian Bach who freely allows anyone to use it.

    http://tablesorter.com/docs/
    http://tablesorter.com/docs/example-pager.html

    Now, the issue that seems to be remaining is that my table has a similar look. Yes, my designer did see the bonusbetting table before he designed mine, so that is why the colours/images are similar. Bonus betting doesn't have any copyright over colours though, but I understand why he is upset about it so I am changing all colours so that won't be an issue anymore.

    I have yet to confirm with my designer if the star/tick/cross images came from bonusbetting. However to due this being an issue as well, I have created all new images for my table and have the photoshop .psd files to prove ownership.

    Hopefully we can sort this out now. I will confirm with you Ben before I put the table back up.

  14. #33
    bonusbetting is offline Private Member
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    That is indeed the origin of most of code, but it isn't where your designer got it. I know this because he has also copied my modifications to it, and parts of another open source script I used. If you want to re-build it from scratch without my modifications, then there is nothing I can do to stop you. If you keep anything that is identifiable as my work, I will go straight to DMCA.

    That may seem harsh to some people, but the reason I feel this way is down to your lack of ethics.

    The particular shade of red used was a very strange choice - except of course, that it wasn't. It came from my code.

    The images came from 'open source' logo sets (i.e. freely available for use or modification etc) which I then modified - and I can show what I did. They came from my site. You are not free to use the modified images.

    All the table headings but one were the same. The exact size of the logos was copied. The format, my design, was copied. There is no way you can defend this as legitimate.

    There are also other points which lead me to be 100% sure that my code was copied and then you modified it.

    What I really have an issue with, and what you don't seem to view as a problem, is that you hired someone to copy my table in the first place. It is unethical, and against the GPWA code of conduct. Whether or not you end up with a non-infringing table, this fact remains.

    To be quite honest, I'm skeptical that a legitimate designer would actually do this, I wouldn't mind having a word with him/her if you are able to provide contact details. If this is true, how is it that you are so sure the designer just copied everything about my table without directly lifting it, and why are you defending him/her?

    It also seems very strange that you didn't spot the similarities when the work was delivered.

    As has been said before, taking inspiration is acceptable, copying is not. It's my belief that you have acted without ethics, thought you would get away with it, and are now taking the minimum steps to avoid legal comeback. I will also point to the fact that you tried repeatedly to argue that it was legitimate and only finally took it down when I was about to file the DMCA. Yes, I lost my cool, but I think people will understand why.

    I have learned my lesson - next time it will be one warning and then straight to DMCA notice.
    Last edited by bonusbetting; 3 September 2011 at 11:02 am.
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  16. #34
    fadetoblack is offline Private Member
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    Hi Ben, thanks for the reply. I understand why you are upset and I didn't set out to copy your work or anything like that.

    I have checked the code and I can't see any modifications that come from your site except for some colours. There is quite a lot of code that comes from the open source files that is included on mine, but isn't seen on your site as you modified your's from the original code, but my designer didn't modify mine.

    Yes, I agree, there were several colours used that were the same. Obviously my designer had seen your site and used the exact same colours in my table. I apologise for that.

    Regarding the headings, as I said before, we are advertising the same thing. The headings weren't identical. You will find many many sites on the Internet with the headings like that as it is the information that the customer wants to know from bookmakers.
    I made all the logos myself using logos from the bookmakers sites so I know they are 100% original. They weren't taken from your site. However as you said, they were a same size as that is the size that my designer left in each cell for them.

    I didn't hire somebody to copy your table. I hired somebody to make a table to compare the free bets and yours was used as an example. From what I can see he created it from scratch, but used the 3 colours and star, tick and cross from your site.

    Sure, of course you can talk with him. I checked all the code myself today and I can see it has come from the open source files that I mentioned before. I did in fact spot the similarities and I admit to that, but I didn't think having the same colours would be an issue considering the rest of the work was original.

    I took the table down when I arrived back. Like I said, I was not at work when you messaged me in the morning. I took it down because I am trying to cooperate with you to sort this out. I'm not trying to hurt you, steal your code or anything else even though you may think so.

    - I have now changed all the colours of the table.
    - I have made all new images for the table.

    I now believe that the code is 100% original, the colours are 100% original and the images are 100% original.

  17. #35
    bonusbetting is offline Private Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by fadetoblack View Post
    I have checked the code and I can't see any modifications that come from your site except for some colours. There is quite a lot of code that comes from the open source files that is included on mine, but isn't seen on your site as you modified your's from the original code, but my designer didn't modify mine.
    Looking at the copy I've saved, I can.

    Quote Originally Posted by fadetoblack View Post
    Yes, I agree, there were several colours used that were the same. Obviously my designer had seen your site and used the exact same colours in my table. I apologise for that.
    Apart from seeming very unlikely, given that that shade of red does not fit with your site at all, I know the code was lifted. Claiming the designer independently produced an exact replica, even down to the logo sizes, just won't wash.

    Quote Originally Posted by fadetoblack View Post
    Regarding the headings, as I said before, we are advertising the same thing. The headings weren't identical. You will find many many sites on the Internet with the headings like that as it is the information that the customer wants to know from bookmakers.
    You only actually changed two of them and you kept the order and layout the same. Changing 'free bets' to 'free bet' and 'bookmaker' to 'bookie' is a joke. This is not acceptable.

    Quote Originally Posted by fadetoblack View Post
    I didn't hire somebody to copy your table. I hired somebody to make a table to compare the free bets and yours was used as an example. From what I can see he created it from scratch, but used the 3 colours and star, tick and cross from your site.
    That is not even vaguely credible, and contradicts what you said earlier.

    Quote Originally Posted by fadetoblack View Post
    I took the table down when I arrived back. Like I said, I was not at work when you messaged me in the morning. I took it down because I am trying to cooperate with you to sort this out. I'm not trying to hurt you, steal your code or anything else even though you may think so.
    You took it down when asked to do so by GPWA staff at the last minute before I filed the DMCA notice. Previous to this you made many attempts to find out what the least possible changes you could make to avoid the DMCA were.

    The right thing to do was to take the table down, apologize and build your own - not to try and work out how you could get away with it legally.

    Again, here is my site: http://bonusbetting.co.uk and here is your copy: http://bonusbetting.co.uk/copy.gif

    Your claims are entirely disingenuous, and you know it.
    Last edited by bonusbetting; 3 September 2011 at 12:13 pm.
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  18. #36
    fadetoblack is offline Private Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by bonusbetting View Post
    Looking at the copy I've saved, I can.



    Apart from seeming very unlikely, given that that shade of red does not fit with your site at all, I know the code was lifted. Claiming the designer independently produced an exact replica, even down to the logo sizes, just won't wash.



    You only actually changed two of them and you kept the order and layout the same. Changing 'free bets' to 'free bet' and 'bookmaker' to 'bookie' is a joke. This is not acceptable.



    That is not even vaguely credible, and contradicts what you said earlier.



    You took it down when asked to do so by GPWA staff at the last minute before I filed the DMCA notice. Previous to this you made many attempts to find out what the least possible changes you could make to avoid the DMCA were.

    The right thing to do was to take the table down, apologize and build your own - not to try and work out how you could get away with it legally.

    Again, here is my site: http://bonusbetting.co.uk and here is your copy: http://bonusbetting.co.uk/copy.gif

    Your claims are entirely disingenuous, and you know it.
    You obviously think I am lying so I can't really say anything here. What am I getting out of making "disingenuous" claims?

    If my designer used the colours from your table, it doesn't mean he actually took the table.

    I can see the table code is from the link I mentioned and isn't like yours. It even uses a different method to import the images.

    I think I'm free to use any headings I want on my site. If I'm advertising bookmakers and free bets, I can use those titles without any problems in my opinion. I'm not sure what is contradicted. If I am listing a bookmaker I have to put bookmaker as the title. If I am showing the free bet they offer, I have to put free bet as the title.

    You only confirmed recently that those are your images, so I couldn't say if my designer used them. I am sorry if he did indeed take them from your site.

    You are taking a very negative attitude towards this. I am trying to work this out with you and you don't want to believe anything I say.

    I have change all the images and colours of the table. The code is already unique. There isn't anything else I can change. I will show it to you before I put it back up to avoid any more problems.

  19. #37
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    bonusbetting

    This thread could go on and on, someone needs to be the adult here and put it to rest. From what i can see you raised a valid argument and outlined a couple of issues relating to the copied content. These issues were taken down by fadetoblack and he has requested some input from you so he does not place anything else back up.

    A table can be created by anyone, The only thing i saw which matched your table was the tick images and "X" images. If you are referring to the casino, poker, sportsbook images you cannot claim them as your own.

    If the color scheme looked like yours it can be easily changed. Reading through all of this it is clear that fadetoblack responded and has tried to rectify this issue.

    It is you that is unwilling to budge. If you want this sorted properly stop demanding and threatening and try to work this out civilly. Fadetoblack has explained it is or was another designer that done this and from my point of view he is doing all he can to fix it. He is allowed to use a table, nearly every website out there does. All he needs to do is change it from looking similar to yours.

    Its not rocket science, and there is no need for this thread to go on and on.
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  20. #38
    bonusbetting is offline Private Member
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    Yes, I have been negative - am I expected to be positive about this? Yes, I have been unwilling to back down. I am protecting my income. BigFreeBet.com is a more established site than mine - what happens when users see his site first and assume I've copied him?

    fadetoblack certainly appears like he is being reasonable, but I need to remind you it is not me who copied my work (again, I know this to be true and can prove it) and caused this issue.

    Saying something calmly and repeatedly does not make it true, although it is a good tactic when you want to appear as the reasonable party in an argument, and it certainly wears people down. The continued suggestion that it is me being unreasonable is unfair. It is considerably more than the ticks and crosses that were copied, the whole design was lifted. There were far less differences than similarities.

    How you would feel if it was your site that had been copied?

    Using 'bookmaker' and 'free bet' as table headings is fine, of course it is. But that isn't the issue. Using all the same headings in the same order to produce the same layout and then changing two of them may be legal, but it is not ethical.

    In my defence, you are the first person out of everyone (I have asked more than 20 people, I was even starting to think I might be wrong myself) who thinks that fadetoblack's position is justifiable.

    However, you're right in that I've wasted far too much time on this already. My position isn't going to change, and I won't say anything more in public after this post.
    Last edited by bonusbetting; 3 September 2011 at 8:38 pm.
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  21. #39
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    Players Luck - Jamie is offline Public Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by bonusbetting View Post
    you are the first person out of everyone (I have asked more than 20 people, I was even starting to think I might be wrong myself) who thinks that fadetoblack's position is justifiable.
    I have never said what he done was justifiable. But he has tried to resolve the situation and there is no point in you keep whining about it. I would understand you being so upset if he done absolutely nothing at all to resolve this, but he/she has.

    You posted someone copied your content - Explained
    He removed the content, and asked for your help in finding what exactly was copied - You Refused

    So it should be left at that, it certainly doesn't need 2 pages of arguing or complaining. I understand totally why you are upset and you had a valid point. But this doesn't make someone totally in the wrong, he tried to explain to you how this happened and you have chosen not to believe him. Clearly by the posts he has been more than willing to correct anything you have brought up. So the issue now should be left at that.

    Fadetoblack will obviously place a table of some sort back up, but he shouldn't be mad to feel like he shouldn't as anyone is allowed to use tables.

    I can see both sides, I posted in favor of you at the beginning because i saw an issue that i agreed on " Copied Content" 90% of the time people ignore these complaints and don't come and address them, so in fadetoblacks favor i think he has done well to try and fix this issue with you. Its your choice if you don't want to accept an apology or believe him.
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  22. #40
    fadetoblack is offline Private Member
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    Thanks Jamie for adding some neutral input to the situation.

    @Ben, when I said you are being negative I referred to your attitude in trying to resolve this problem. If you want it sorted out, then the best route would be to act calmly and positively, and work with me until the problem is resolved.

    I would like to refer you to my first post:

    Hello, this is Harry from bigfreebet. Sorry, I didn't receive any email from you.

    Regarding the table, I saw your table and asked my designer to make a similar sortable table. The moo tools javascript code he used is open source and not stolen at all.

    I made all the images except the stars and ticks/crosses. Did you make those? If he got them from your site, I apologize.

    Other than that I don't know what I can change. As I said, he made a table based on yours. A table can't be copyrighted as they are used all over the web. My designer used moo tools to make it sortable. Please let me know if there is anything you want me to change.


    I have admitted to you that my designer replicated the general layout of the table on your site as well as using three images from it. This was a mistake.

    As I have already stated. The look, colours and images of my table have been changed now. If you would like I am happy to show you the table before I put it back up.

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