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  1. #21
    RacingJim is offline Public Member
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    As per the above post, I generally assume that big depositers are wealthy people getting their kicks how they choose.
    I am very normalised to gambling, I grew up with it and worked in bookies etc, I always enjoyed it. Therefore I don't really feel that much guilt as such, as I just see it as a leisure activity. I know there are people with gambling problems, but there are also millions of people just putting on accumulators and having fun.

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  3. #22
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    If it is not your close friend-family member, your only responsibility should be to make sure that your website has links to gambling-related help.
    Nowadays quite a few sites are proactive at closing problematic gamblers' accounts, check income sources etc. It's their job to do that, not yours. If a person spends a lot of money during a long period of time then it most likely means that a person has a stable income and can afford it.

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  5. #23
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    Food for thought Sherlock.

    I've always thought that the deposit methods limited the rate at which a player can lose. After all, Credit Cards have limits on how much can be spent. It would be hard to mortgage your home immediately and process through an online casino. Maybe I am naive, and need to think that. Overall, I think it's simply entertainment, and can be more engaging than other forms of entertainment, although probably healthier.

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  7. #24
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    Following the business for many years and I can assure you that deposit limits and monthly account limits have prevented many Gambling Addiction tragedies. Online players can't punt 1million dollars per game even if they wanted to. We also know people have a habit of; "if they don't get what they want, they will search elsewhere till they find it".

    The online market for the most part is entertainment stakes not get rich stakes.


    The only time I hear about outlier stories of people losing millions is when they play in or with licensed and regulated Brick and Mortar Casinos.
    Even these places post limits that can be easily surpassed upon request by the customer. "excuse me sir I'd like a marker for $1 million please"

    Some Outlier examples:

    Kakavas lost more than $30 million at Crown Casino in Melbourne – betting $300,000 a hand.

    https://www.themonthly.com.au/issue/.../biggest-loser

    Terrance Watanabe said he bet more than $825 million and lost nearly $127 million of it in Caesars Palace and the Rio casinos in 2007, believed to be the biggest losing streak in Vegas history.

    https://abcnews.go.com/GMA/gambler-d...ory?id=9272730

    Houston's 'Mattress Mack' lost $13 million in bets on the Astros World Series loss but says he'd do it again

    https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/31/us/ma...rnd/index.html

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  9. #25
    Sherlock's Avatar
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    Sorry, but this is a nonsense. I do not think I have provably a player who lost 1M (but I am sure there are a few), but I have many 6 figures losers. I personally lost over 1M at Pinnacle (and won more elsewhere from hedge bets). People do not have to deposit it all at once. Those big losers lose it during many months or even years.

    But one does not have to lose 6 figures. Even 5 or 4 are for most people something big and honestly even if normal people lose 3 figures they are retards.

    But everyone thinks this is about money, money, money. But it is about the habit, about obsession, about throwing ones life away. I lost 4 years of my life when I was teenager with gambling. I was losing just 2 figures/month, I definitely could afford it financially, but I could do simply some other things instead of hoping for some miracle. I was very close to self-destruction, because my thinking was flawed and the brain started to work quite bad. That is the issue for low stake players. In Macedonia I met a gambler who was ruining his life with stakes 1-5 EUR. He was annoying to himself and to people around him. Good for nothing loser. This low stake betting also ruins lives and since there are much more poor bettors, it is even a bigger problem. There is no safe amount that can prevent the gambling habit. The habit itself is a big problem. The fact that we have relatively small money from small gamblers, does not mean that those gamblers do not have problems. There is no equation that their harm is exactly proportional to our benefit.

    And for the whales and that they can afford to lose the big money. I met some wealthy people and really no one acted like a fool. On the contrary, the most rich people drove normal cars, had normal clothes and definitely cared about prices. Some of them even obsessively (guy who flipped company for maybe 100M wrote a blogpost how he is cutting his expenses by 40USD because he cancelled tivo).

    I really believe that people who are losing the big money are not those who can afford it financially. People who can afford it are those who have more. And those who have more are by majority those who made the money and those people are not stupid or those who inherited it or golddiggers or such. So the second group is gambling. And they gamble down to the felt. And since it is this thread, it is obvious why. Those people feel guilt for the money they have out of blue. They need to get rid of it. The desperation of those poor guys and bitches is big. So if I have to be a cynic, we are helping them. But ofc that is just another excuse.
    We are all bloodsucking ticks, hungry, devious
    each one latched on to the ass of the previous
    when the last and the first latch on it can be shown
    ass-blood sucked by the first from the last is his own

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  11. #26
    bpmee is offline Public Member
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    Good thread and I'm pleased to find it on GPWA. I've struggled with similar feelings in the past, especially when someone starts losing substantial sums of money. It doesn't happen often, but it still gives me pause.

    It's safe to say you will never know whether your customer is playing with pocket change or scared money. It's more likely than not that a big depositor has above average means. Getting a 6 figure credit card limit or having the cash to make 6 figure EUR/BTC conversions isn't common. Sure, it could be stolen, a liquidated pension account or proceeds from selling family heirlooms. Or, they could be very wealthy.

    Another member talked about how they promote their website. He/she stated they don't promise instant riches, mislead customers or send them to disreputable operators.

    The "How" is really important. If you are tricking customers into losing their homes, then you're obviously taking advantage of them. That's worthy of substantial guilt. But if you're providing customers with tutorials, odds comparisons, payout percentages and advice about which operators to avoid, then you're representing online gambling fairly.

    Here's another "How" to consider. How do you spend your money, particularly if you have a good month or year?

    There are many aggressive and highly profitable stockbrokers who live for the thrill of their work. Off the job, they are raising a family, are good citizens and support charities. Should they feel guilty about their job?

    What about doctors, professors or non-profit executives? On the job, they're saving lives, helping youth, and changing the world. It's easy to conclude they wouldn't feel bad about making money. But do you know "how" they lead their lives? Does the pediatrician waste money on luxury goods while he neglects his family? Does the non-profit executive cheat on her taxes, make foolish investments or act like a jerk in public?

    It's understandable and commendably empathetic to worry that your enrichment is coming at the expense of another's financial ruin. To be certain, I suspect few of us get into this business to purposely hurt others. If you did, you should feel guilty.

    And you might find the occasional person who thinks you're a scoundrel for promoting gambling. What do they know about you beyond your job? They're making assumptions about you based on your job alone. That's unnecessarily reductive.

    Marketers in other industries grapple with these issues, too. It's not isolated to gambling. People spending thousands on diet pills, investment schemes, "spiritual retreats" and self-help books. Shopaholics blowing thousands on clothing they'll never wear. Patients abusing medication or selling it on the street for profit. Alcoholics propping up the bar at your local pub. Day traders losing thousands on the advice of a TV investment "adviser".

    No one would accuse the shopkeeper, doctor, restaurateur or financial planner of acting immorally. Yet they're in the middle of an intractable situation that inevitably enriches them. Of course, I realize gambling is more problematic than the other things I've mentioned. I only offer them as instances where someone gets rich at the expense of another.

    You can't control what others think, say or do. But you can control yourself. Always be mindful of how you market online gambling and how you live your life. Do the right thing, tell the truth, maintain high standards and live your values.
    Last edited by bpmee; 4 December 2019 at 8:34 pm. Reason: Grammar

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  13. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by bpmee View Post

    Another member talked about how they promote their website. He/she stated they don't promise instant riches, mislead customers or send them to disreputable operators.

    The "How" is really important. If you are tricking customers into losing their homes, then you're obviously taking advantage of them. That's worthy of substantial guilt. But if you're providing customers with tutorials, odds comparisons, payout percentages and advice about which operators to avoid, then you're representing online gambling fairly.
    This is exactly the bullshit that from my experience keeps recent gamblers in the game. The gamblers are not that stupid today that they are just the greedy guys with shining $$ in the eyes. It is possible but that is not the reality of 21st century.

    Most gamblers that I met online were above average smart guys, who could do the math still they ruined their lives and they ruined their lives because they had the math behind it. It was obviously wrong math, but even math and stats can be twisted. And gamblers are very good at twisting the reality. Exactly the sophisticated methods justify the gambling. The math, the percentages, the talks about the odds just make the gambling more legit.

    I was following one Betfair trading forum. It is dead by now. And the people are all broke. They thought they are not gamblers, they thought they are above common gamblers, that it is not their case. They had all those geek toys (literally the name is geekstoy) and it just dug them deeper. They could not recognise the problem, because this is not gambling right. It is trading. If you open random position for greyhounds, you can for 99% always close it with profit, so what is wrong here? 99% is a lot, dude.

    This is shifting further, the sports trading might be dead, but there is forex and the biggest casino ever - cryptotrading. Indeed it is just a game of chance, but trading, trading, TRADING. It is a serious business done by the serious guys in suits from Manhattan, right. There is nothing wrong with trading. It is not gambling at all. No, no, no.

    Really, the ignorance in this thread is on par with ignorance of gamblers. The only successful education about betting is that it is a waste of energy and money and people who will after all gambling responsibly (e.g. they will be still idiots wasting their time, but maybe they will not be broke from it), will never make even money for servers, software and staff. Nobody wants just the responsible gamblers. Any affiliate can play that game with his mind if he really thinks it is healthy, but it does not change the fact we need the whales. We need the people to ruin themselves. And it is not happening just in gambling. That is our economy and society.
    We are all bloodsucking ticks, hungry, devious
    each one latched on to the ass of the previous
    when the last and the first latch on it can be shown
    ass-blood sucked by the first from the last is his own

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  15. #28
    MichaelBluejay is offline Private Member
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    Malikbhai, I'm glad you posted the question. In my case, I advertise the casino's free-play games almost exclusively. And a full 99.97% of my readers never deposit real money at the advertiser (that's the actual figure, not a guess or exaggeration). And of those readers who do deposit real money, the last time I checked, the median loss was something like $26/mo. However, there are some players who lose a lot. And in any event, no matter how few of my readers play or how little the median loss is, ultimately the income I do make comes from people losing money from gambling, which is not a very rewarding way to make money.

    Further, studying addiction, we learn that many people's impulse control is essentially broken. It's easy to say that everyone should just be able to control themselves, since we can control ourselves, but that ignores that what's easy for us is maddeningly difficult to impossible for others. We accept that there are physical differences between us, such as height and strength, so we should accept that the brain is also a physical thing, made of matter, and the way it's "wired" varies from person to person (strength of connection between hemispheres, amount of dopamine released in response to various stimuli, number of neurons, etc. etc. etc.).

    In other cases, some medicines, like the ones that treat Parkinson's, can cause uncontrollable gambling. I met someone with no history of gambling problems, who started taking drugs for Parkinson's and then wound up gambling everything away, resulting in him losing his fiancé as well. At the time, the drug information sheet contained no warning about provoking gambling impulses.

    Anyway, whether "guilt" is the right word or not, having my income ultimately coming from people's gambling losses isn't a great feeling. Providing good articles that save people money on gambling and Vegas entertainment is rewarding, but the income part is not. It's for exactly that reason that I'm exploring other business ideas that I can feel very good about. Once my other ventures make enough money, I plan to remove the casino advertising.

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  17. #29
    bpmee is offline Public Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sherlock View Post
    I was following one Betfair trading forum. It is dead by now. And the people are all broke. They thought they are not gamblers, they thought they are above common gamblers, that it is not their case.
    These people were treating gambling as an investment. That is indeed foolish. I was trying to draw distinction between leading someone to believe they can beat the math versus seeing - in black and white - that long-term gambling is a losing proposition. For most gambling is just entertainment.

    Casino payout percentages, particularly slots, rarely exceed 98%. That 2% keeps the house in business. People who don't think that applies to them are kidding themselves.

    Similarly, sportsbooks charge juice on bets. Holding 7% on the handle is a good week for them. That edge eats at a player long term.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherlock View Post
    Any affiliate can play that game with his mind if he really thinks it is healthy, but it does not change the fact we need the whales.
    Yes, the large losers are the casinos's best friend. And they can propel an affiliate's business from a hobby into a full time gig. A few thousand extra a month, wisely invested, can bring a website from obscurity to competitive in a short time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherlock View Post
    We need the people to ruin themselves.
    Not so sure about this. If by "ruin", you mean fool themselves, yes. But financial ruin? That's not my hope. As others have stated, you know don't where someone gets their money from. It could be from wealth, theft or borrowed. It's impossible for an affiliate to know.

    As I said above, this comes down to a judgment call. Depending on one's own values and philosophy, gambling affiliate marketing is either a moot point or morally problematic. I think there's more to the equation if you consider the way the world is.

    Good reply, this is a healthy discussion to have on this forum.
    Last edited by bpmee; 4 December 2019 at 8:53 pm. Reason: Fixed quote, Clarity

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  19. #30
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    I do feel bad, that's why in my forum I don't encourage anyone to gamble. So far in my affiliate ventures I haven't had anyone who has lost so much money like what you describe. May be it is for good. I think I had someone who lost 10 000 euro. Big enough but not in house territory.
    There are many gambling sites, but my favorite one is the betting forum

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  21. #31
    Sherlock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bpmee View Post
    Not so sure about this. If by "ruin", you mean fool themselves, yes. But financial ruin? That's not my hope. As others have stated, you know don't where someone gets their money from. It could be from wealth, theft or borrowed. It's impossible for an affiliate to know.

    As I said above, this comes down to a judgment call. Depending on one's own values and philosophy, gambling affiliate marketing is either a moot point or morally problematic. I think there's more to the equation if you consider the way the world is.

    Good reply, this is a healthy discussion to have on this forum.
    We need whales. Take my top 1% players out and I am nobody. That is pure math. Nothing can change it. I have 6:26 AM, I am still working. I can assure you that I would be swimming in the pool if I had only the 99%... long long time ago. But my pool is dark green. And I still work. I work on the chance to catch the 1% whale, because that is the universal business model in digital world. And surely everyone here is like this - no one works hard for pennies. The 20 USD depositors really do not interest me financially (in fact if I wish something, it is to have just the 1% fuked up whales, because then I would keep the money and 99% of people can love someone or do artwork for example. We would have the thousand of Einsteins and thousand of Mozarts without going to the Mars. [Ok enough fun, the people indeed would be the same bored idiots without higher goals, they would be just going to supermarkets for black Friday or smoke weed or play computer games]).

    There are no sane whales. It is a mystery that just affiliates need for not feeling like excrements. Because everyone needs the story that I am the right guy and the bad people are the others. How can I be the bad guy? The enemy must be always outside! So that is why we need the rational billionaires who are throwing away millions and it is fun, just fun.

    After only 2 years of retirement, 78 percent of NFL players were either broke or struggling financially. Within 5 years of retirement, 60 percent of NBA players are broke
    ^ Here is a good sample of our players for example. So please now let someone comes with a story, how those niggas with big dicks deserve it. Kenny McKinley to name someone.

    I saw them. I saw the biggest whales at unnamed big casino/book that has the brilliant idea to make a joint Caribbean trip for top players and affiliates together. Some of the whales are really weirdos, some are flamboyant, but definitely you can feel from the guys that their trajectory goes to hell.
    We are all bloodsucking ticks, hungry, devious
    each one latched on to the ass of the previous
    when the last and the first latch on it can be shown
    ass-blood sucked by the first from the last is his own

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  23. #32
    goals is offline Public Member
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    I tend to be strict with people as I am with myself.

    In situations with a bad outcome, I will first blame myself and try to figure out what I have done wrong and then see if there is someone else that could be at fault.

    Same here. There are numerous potentially bad influences or habits around us, so it's up to everyone to stay away from those.

    People suffer from alcoholism but you wouldn't blame the distillery. Same with cigarettes, speeding with your car (manufacturers are not made to limit car performance to, say, 70km/h), surfing, eating too much etc etc.

    Anything and everything is potentially hazardous. You just need measure in your life
    Τα πάντα για στοίχημα και livescores

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  25. #33
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    To me it is pointless for me to feel guilty. Because they would spend that money at the bookies/casino anyway, whether I am the affiliate or not. And I am 100% happy with myself and my moral position in respect of that. I am so miniscule in the industry. A leaf on a very large tree, if I die, no-one cares.

    I feel sad if the customer lost a large amount, of course I do, but I didn't create gambling or a gambling company as much as I didn't create the human desire for fun/excitement/novelty. Nor do my methods of advertising cause me any bother, if I removed them tomorrow it wouldn't make one iota of a difference to anybody except me, somebody else would simply take my place for as long as affiliate marketing remains a thing.

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  27. #34
    bpmee is offline Public Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sherlock View Post
    I work on the chance to catch the 1% whale, because that is the universal business model in digital world. And surely everyone here is like this - no one works hard for pennies.
    Yes, that is the reality of this industry for small affiliate shops. No disagreement there. Larger sites, like AskGamblers.com, CasinoCity, OddsShark or SBR can get by on a large volume of small players.

    The financial losses of retired NBA and NFL players is a cautionary tale. Maybe the money comes to easy? Maybe they are surrounded by leaches?

    More likely, it comes down to basic financial literacy, which usually comes when people struggle in their lives. These leagues do offer players advisers and financial planners. Ultimately, they're tempted by business opportunities, bad investments or wanting to help family and friends financially. It's incumbent on the leagues to help these guys and for them to help themselves.

    The same with whales, though their pathology is much different compared to a spendthrift sports star.

    I still don't have a bullet-proof rebuttal to someone who is critical of the gambling industry, particularly on moral grounds. After spending years in this industry, my actions have spoken louder than my words. I don't like the thought of someone's gambling leading to personal catastrophe, but I inevitably profit from what is obviously reckless and potentially self-destructive behavior.

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    It is a pleasure to read such balanced insight!

    Zero disagreement. Just about the big affiliate sites or even the bookies and the revenue from small players: As a sum it is still a lot indeed. But the revenue from small fries is not the money that can pay off the hundred of employees at Oddshark or thousands of employees at big bookies.

    If the whales are cut, like they do it in offline UK, the game is over. Affiliate marketers will sell airline tickets.

    Whole economy digital is based on this. Even the long haul airlines live off business/first class tickets. Cut it and bye bye tangetial direct flights in 787 like Warszaw - Tokyo or Asuncion - Madrid.

    What about online games. Do they live from notoric demo players or guys who play on fake servers or kids that can buy diamond sword once a year after Christmas? No, those software companies rely on few rich freaks who want to buy virtual stuff for millions.

    What about banks. Budget banks who do make pennies from cards in Europe for example and nothing from time deposits. They only wait for loan whales. Nothing else make them money. Private banks on the other side also do not pay the Picasso in the waiting room from regular wealthy customers who pay them 1k/yearly on fees (it is nice, but that is it). They also aim at ultrawhales.

    The list goes on and digital economy is extending it. It is the SERP fallacy. The highest rank counts.
    We are all bloodsucking ticks, hungry, devious
    each one latched on to the ass of the previous
    when the last and the first latch on it can be shown
    ass-blood sucked by the first from the last is his own

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  31. #36
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    I have to agree totally with Sherlock and all the answers he gave about the whales. I used to wokr on one sportsbook and 50-100 big bosses/whales/hard stakers were bringing the revenue and paying the salaries.
    Seven times fall, eight times stand.

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    At least for me, removing the top 1% of my players wouldn't have changed the players' total loss dramatically. I realize I may be an exception.

    About this:

    Quote Originally Posted by RacingJim
    To me it is pointless for me to feel guilty. Because they would spend that money at the bookies/casino anyway, whether I am the affiliate or not.
    I see it differently. Say I see two people beating up an innocent person. I'm powerless to intervene and the attackers will leave long before the police arrive. The attackers will beat the victim whether I do anything or not, so does that mean it's okay for me to join the attack and beat the innocent person?

    If you want to try to poke holes in that analogy, there are hundreds of others. The concept is, we might not be able to stop an unpleasant event, but by participating, that makes us complicit. Some Quaker pacifists object to paying taxes that are used for war, knowing that their refusal doesn't change the outcome, simple because they think it's wrong to be a part of it. If you argue that pacifism is wrong or that everyone ought to pay taxes, that's missing the point: the point is, by being a part of something, we're partly responsible for it.



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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBluejay View Post
    At least for me, removing the top 1% of my players wouldn't have changed the players' total loss dramatically. I realize I may be an exception.

    About this:

    I see it differently. Say I see two people beating up an innocent person. I'm powerless to intervene and the attackers will leave long before the police arrive. The attackers will beat the victim whether I do anything or not, so does that mean it's okay for me to join the attack and beat the innocent person?

    If you want to try to poke holes in that analogy, there are hundreds of others. The concept is, we might not be able to stop an unpleasant event, but by participating, that makes us complicit. Some Quaker pacifists object to paying taxes that are used for war, knowing that their refusal doesn't change the outcome, simple because they think it's wrong to be a part of it. If you argue that pacifism is wrong or that everyone ought to pay taxes, that's missing the point: the point is, by being a part of something, we're partly responsible for it.


    The problem I have with your analogy is you are talking about victims and 'unpleasant events'. That is probably the result of living in a snowflake, liberal-lefty guilt-ridden society.
    I do not see 'Rob in Macclesfield on his phone banging £50 on Aubameyang first goalscorer' as a victim. I see him as a bloke conducting a leisure activity in the comfort of his own home, in a free society.

    A lot of people who have issues with addiction, will find an addiction to suit them. Be that alcohol, drugs, gambling etc etc. As I've said earlier in this post, the problem isn't necessarily the addiction itself, the problem is what gap is that person trying to fill with their addiction? What demons do they have underneath that need dealing with? Abstaining and avoidance are one thing, but dealing with the underlying reasons through counselling and/or therapy is the only real way to break the cycle.

    So really it goes back to nanny state, do we stop all gambling/alcohol/drugs because some people can't do it in a controlled manner? Or do we simply try and help the people with problems as much as we can.
    Last edited by RacingJim; 9 December 2019 at 5:46 am.

  36. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to RacingJim For This Useful Post:

    TheGooner (9 December 2019), universal4 (9 December 2019)

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