View Poll Results: How does renewal of the Bella Vegas eCogra seal influence your opinion of eCogra?

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  • Influences my opinion very positively.

    0 0%
  • Influences my opinion somewhat positively.

    0 0%
  • Does not noticeably influence my opinion.

    1 3.13%
  • Influences my opinion somewhat negatively.

    2 6.25%
  • Influences my opinion very negatively

    29 90.63%
  • I'm not sure yet.

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  1. #1
    MichaelCorfman's Avatar
    MichaelCorfman is offline GPWA Executive Director
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    Question How does renewal of the Bella Vegas eCogra seal influence your opinion of eCogra?

    In my opinion, the eCogra initiative to audit online gaming sites over the last several years has been a very positive step in terms of self-regulation within the online gaming industry. Personally, I've very much respected Andrew Beveridge, the Executive Director of eCogra, and have worked with and supported eCogra in a variety of ways over the years.

    I also very much believe applying the same principles to the affiliate program side of the industry is a very positive development, and one that has my strong personal support. I commend the efforts of eCogra and their work involved in the eCogra certification of the Fortune Affiliates and Roxy Affiliates programs, and I believe that effort complements the type of work that can be done by organizations like the GPWA and other affiliate forum alliance members.

    But I've also warned eCogra that the politics of managing affiliate program and gaming site operations as unrelated matters is very complex from a webmaster perspective because webmasters feel these factors are intertwined, and that a seal relating to trust that ignores trust issues in one area when evaluating the other may tarnish the eCogra brand in the eye of some number of webmasters.

    Perhaps the best example in the area is the recent renewal of the eCogra certification for Bella Vegas, a casino whose affiliate program is linked with Grand Prive, as disclosed on Gambling 911 in the article http://www.gambling911.com/gambling-...up-060209.html discussed in the GPWA forum thread https://www.gpwa.org/forum/ecogra-pr...se-181379.html.

    How serious of an issue do you view this situation? Does it impact your view of eCogra and the value of the eCogra seal for operators and affiliate programs? Besides answering this week's poll question, I encourage you to post your more detailed thoughts on the matter in this thread.

    Michael
    GPWA Executive Director, Casino City CEO, Friend to the Village Idiot

    Resources for Affiliates: iGamingDirectory.com, iGamingAffiliatePrograms.com, GamingMeets.com

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  3. #2
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    Whew.....for a few minutes there I though that Mojo musta made this post for you Michael....since when I first read the post there wasn't a poll attached....LOL (I musta read it immediately after you posted it before you did the poll)

    It has most certainly affected my view of them in a negative way...

    I had lost much faith in them for a long time, but this move really solidifies that feeling....

    I honestly think that a number of players will now say things like..."See we tried to tell you they were full of it" and things similar to that.

    Rick
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  5. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelCorfman View Post
    But I've also warned eCogra that the politics of managing affiliate program and gaming site operations as unrelated matters is very complex from a webmaster perspective because webmasters feel these factors are intertwined, and that a seal relating to trust that ignores trust issues in one area when evaluating the other may tarnish the eCogra brand in the eye of some number of webmasters.
    I definitely agree with your warnings.

    I always thought that eCogra was better than nothing, and did do good for our industry. I've always had my reservations about who's scratchng who's back between them and Microgaming Casinos though. But ever since the Grand Prive Affiliates incident, I lost a lot of faith in eCogra. Granted, the affiliate program did not have the Trust Seal, but still.

    I don't think eCogra should allow casinos to have a seal, unless their affiliate program also has the Trust Seal from eCogra. Doing so, is almost like the old CAP certified program list. Makes you think everything about this place is good, when it actually means certain parts of an operation is good, but other parts might be very bad, and rogue-like. Not good.

    The eCogra seal means nothing to me if they continue to allow casinos to have a seal and not require their affiliate programs associated to also have the Trust Seal. When a seal is given out, it should imply this is a good operation all the way around. Not just for players.

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  7. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by universal4 View Post
    Whew.....for a few minutes there I though that Mojo musta made this post for you Michael....since when I first read the post there wasn't a poll attached....LOL (I musta read it immediately after you posted it before you did the poll)

    Rick
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    Wait til you see my next poll... should Rick lapdance?

    I voted very negitive. The only way to really have a true audit is to include all areas, players-affiliates-software. If I ran a casino I would make sure my aff program reflected positively on my business.

    eCOGRA couldn't possibly care about the affiliate when awarding the seal to Bella. Affiliates need help with Grand Prive but instead eCOGRA is counterproductive for us.

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  9. #5
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    Whether Mr Beverisge is a nice bloke or not is hardly relevant.

    All the problems with Ecogra, funding source, possible conflict of interest and so on, are overcome by the presence of the 4 independents, Hirst, Catania etc, or so i'm told.

    None of those 4 represent the player, nor do I believe they are affiliates. All I believe, are on a fee, otherwise they'd not be there.

    It's about time affs saw what players have been talking about. Now you know.

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  11. #6
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    I have since long doubts about the independence of eCOGRA, although Andrew Beveridge was very definitive on this point. The fact that their affiliate program certification has been started by certifying two programs managing Microgaming casinos raises doubt whether eCOGRA is really independent or rather a promotion channel for one of their founder members.

    There is also a fundamenta problem about how they ought to react in case a cerified program falters after the certification. In such a case, will they withdraw the seal, and when? Let us take the example of Roxy and their introduction of the High Roller clause. If they apply it to existing affiliate members, it will be predatory. If that happens, how would eCOGRA react?

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  13. #7
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    Default eCOGRA finally showed its face in full

    eCOGRA finally showed its face in full. Now they cannot pretend to be independent, however I think they would have no other choice and would keep saying that. But for the affiliates they would not be able to restore the reputation once its lost.

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  15. #8
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    Perhaps we need a certification program of certification programs!
    Paul

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  17. #9
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    It immediately makes me think that every affiliate should ask them for $400CPA because it seems they must be easily swayed into spending money with no return. I was hoping when I clicked on the seal it would take me to a Rick Rolled video, but it didnt...
    Greg D Powell
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  19. #10
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    Money talks and bullshit walks! We are considering removing the eCogra seals from our portals. Don't take a genius to figure out who really runs eCogra and all of you non MG operator's that pay the fee to have your affiliate program certified I have a question for you, do you think you will have a fair hearing if your program ever comes under fire? One thing is for sure the future of this industry will be very interesting. Here is a FACT for ya right now there are a few Microgaming brands using predatory terms and I see them listed with eCogra!

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  21. #11
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    Ecogra’s renewal seal of “trust” granted for Bella Vegas sabotages and contradicts the industrial values it wishes to protect. Ecogra just another phoney regulatory body whose only end is their bottom line.

    Since the inception of “Online Gambling” affiliates have been at the forefront of this industry. Very sad the Cardinals of Sin like Ecogra continues to betray our trust. Just shows how our dreams maybe crushed by a few who dream bigger with no regard for human decency.

    Ecogra a bunch of empty heads void of any nobility.

    greek39

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  23. #12
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    I removed them some time ago.

    I remember I was really thrilled to be one of the first casino portals on there www.bondedcasinos.com , though I found it curious that site made it but my others didn't since they all offer the same in terms of commitment and providing responsible choices.

    anyway I remember when I heard 888 was involved that I knew then it wouldn't be aff friendly. When has 888 ever made any serious efforts towards ethical behavior amongst its affs? I'm not talking lip service but the kind of effort that avoids the consistent posts that people like Greek (kudos sir) would bring to our attention.

    That's when it was pretty apparent that when push came to shove it wouldn't be justice that ended up king of the hill.


    I commend bonus streak and others who are stepping up and making known we aren't going to just pretend everything is okay when ecogra as much as pats the back of a place that is nothing more than a common thief.

    But did their approving Bella Vegas change my thinking of them ... not really. But it sure as hell cemented it.

    ................



    I'd like to take this opportunity to once again plead my case to those who are not participating in creating blacklist pages for grand prive to please do so now.

    There is talk amongst the industry that grand prive has gotten away with it. Already Vegas Affiliates are threatening new T&Cs which are very predatory ... do not believe anything less.

    Other programs may seek to follow suit if they do not see us as a unilateral effort seek to burn down grand prive and any other entity that chooses to screw the aff community for services we have already rendered.

    If you have nothing invested in grand prive .... all the more reason to jump on the opportunity to make an example of some place that isn't going to cost you money. DO NOT WAIT UNTIL IT IS GOING TO COST YOU MONEY!

    Act now. Join us in the fight. If you can't find a thread here ... check us out at http://www.gamblingaffiliateplace.co...=2871#post2871
    Last edited by bb1web; 8 June 2009 at 1:34 am.
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  25. #13
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    Well yes, some of Ecogra's decisions are a bit candid camera-like.

    One of the more interesting threads around at the moment, is the possibility of new standards for Casinomeister acreditted casinos.

    The GIA added a new players ethics charter a while ago, which Ecogra could do with readng, because it tallies with much of what Spearmaster is proposing at the Casinomeister..

    The tide is turning now.

    What to do?
    It strikes me that responsible affiliates need to sit down and work through what is acceptable terms-wise, what is not, and how they sit with unnaceptable operator practise towards the player.

    webmaster: "i've had no complaints from my players"
    me: "lucky you".

  26. #14
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    Does anybody else have a bad taste in their mouth about how eCOGRA is supposedly adding an aff side yet they continue to approve places which there is no question should NOT be approved.

    One has to ask the question are they approving these sites to then turn around and un-approve them when the aff side goes live or are they simply doing damage control for having backed GP in the first place.

    ..............

    In answer to the question what are acceptable terms?

    It starts with the obvious. Which is what makes the fact they just approved Bella Vegas look like they are not serious about their aff side.

    What could possibly be more blatantly obvious short of actually holding a gun on us while taking our wallets than what grand prive has done.

    I'm still offended at the way eCOGRA has handled grand prive. Who wouldn't be?

    And now this effort to add an aff side while just having approved Bella Vegas. Am I the only one who thinks the whole thing stinks?

    But giving benefit of doubt which is really hard to do under the circumstances ... I suppose its a good thing they are adding an aff side.

    that said: I can't help but think at this stage of the game that this will just become a tool used to silence the aff community when some of us step up and proclaim the emperor wears no clothes ... the next time a touchy subject comes up and the powers that be are determined to see whatever evil deed they may have conceived ... seen put into use.

    Think about it. What better way to shut us up ... to avoid blacklist situations ... than to have the "last word entity" first "investigate" the situation ... all the while asking we affs abstain from any rash actions ... thus allowing time to dull the sharp edge of outrage.

    Then throw in a few public statements basically saying nothing and ending it with "further investigation is necessary" ... and suddenly all the blacklist stuff goes away.

    Not saying that is the case ... am saying it is something we need to be on our toes watching for and not allow tactics as I have just described to sway us from ways that we know work to accomplish the hard tasks ... such as blacklisting.
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