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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by billy0 View Post
    - once a day is ok for me
    - payments frequency is more important to me.
    Excellent question too. What payment frequency do you look for? It seems most programs pay once per month.
    What does everyone think of that.

    Again, thanks to everyone for the comments. Keep 'em coming

  2. #22
    -Shay- is offline Public Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Professor Axiom View Post
    Excellent question too. What payment frequency do you look for? It seems most programs pay once per month.
    What does everyone think of that.

    Again, thanks to everyone for the comments. Keep 'em coming
    My favourite topic - payments...

    Monthly payments are perfectly fine by me - provided a pay by date is set in stone in the terms and conditions. Additionally, a new program, in my opinion, should strive to set said payment date early in the month --- otherwise, it could create the perception (to me) that you're not as financially sound as you might be. Payment between 1st & 5th of the month would be absolutely fantastic... payment before the 10th of the month would be near the head of the line as well.

  3. #23
    JackTenSuited is offline Private Member
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    Daily is fine, stops me refreshing my stats like a nutter

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  5. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by lufc View Post
    it would b great to get 'live stats' for when doing PPC stuff but once a day is ok although I wish it was early morning rather than around midday when bet365 seem to update
    This is the real reason why I moved to South America. I have them served with breakfast

    Seriously... I think once a day is enough and I have 2 reasons for it.

    #1 Real time stats cost something and it is really not easy to do. Question should be: how much would you pay for realtime stats instead of update 1 or 2x a day. I would not pay a penny. But as always someone has to pay for it and in the end it is either our commission or the profit of the bookie. I can see 100 ways how to spend the money better.

    #2 Procrastination. The Bet365 stats are sometimes delayed. My breakfast is finished, so I keep clicking on it and losing time. No, I do not want to be adicted to this. I am already Google Analytics Realtime addict, that is enough.
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  6. #25
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    Once a month payments are fine providing:

    You offer FAIR and HONEST stats

    You pay quickly and on time every month according to your state terms of service.

    Rick
    Universal4

    As a side note: I sure miss the days when all the programs were in competition to see who could pay the fastest at the beginning of each month.

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  8. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by -Shay- View Post
    1. As it is the 21st century, I prefer real time updates.
    I do and I don't. I have issues with stats, I need to check them all the time. If one of my bigger programme updated every second of the day, I would be glued to my tablet, phone, laptop, PC more than I am now.

  9. #27
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    Exactly. Some bookies offer to gamblers voluntary restrictions. I would like to ask affiliates to NOT allow to see stats more than once a day.

    So far only Ladbrokes understand the concept. Their stats work about 30 mins a day. The problem is that no one knows which 30 mins of the 24 hours it is.
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    I would say real time would be the absolute best. Yes you will have ups and downs but it is what it is. Real time would be awesome and some affiliate programs seem to update pretty frequently already. I would say every 15 mins or so it seems if they are not in fact real time already.
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  11. #29
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    It is really ridiculous. Real time stats are good for nothing. Besides that there are now two kinds of affiliate programmes:

    Group one has problems always.

    Group the best affiliates has problems during peaks. I really lowed the biggest UFC event this year and Bettingpartners offline all the time. I really love Unibet and Bwin banners slowing down my site during Saturday soccer...

    Real time stats is not just adding some graph. Realtime means you have to hire really powerful hardware and really skilled and very expensive team of people if you really want to have realtime stats and not some joke. Unless the affiliates can provide stable solution for updates once a day, I beg for no change.

    Please check US bookies at the hour when NFL starts and check euro bookies and their creatives during El Classico. Then you will see there is no point in this thread. If something has to be found it is a decent cdn/cloud solution.
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  12. #30
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    Given the technically complex nature of gathering data from various sources, and generating a statistical report, how easy or difficult would it be for a sponsor to "manually edit" some of the figures? I'm not pointing my finger at anyone. I'm just curious.

  13. #31
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    I think that option should be something that is taken into account from the beginning. If not, then it is impossible.

    Simply the data is stored at place A (with some backups). The most important part is that there are no disruptions if a player signs-up and the cookie and credit goes from the betting site to the database at place A. This process must be always smooth.

    And then once a day or few times a day I think the place A makes a copy of the data and finally the affiliate software grabs the data and counts it in.

    And here is the problem. The real time solution means that the databaseat place A is a place where are data written and read at the same moment and on the top of that there is a crazy demand that no credit for player is lost. This seems like no problem, but actually it is a problem.

    I am not an expert, so I will tell it in my words for IT idiots, but we are having the same problem now with our database server and it is horrible. One server is not enough, there is a need for master server and now backup slave server to which you have to switch traffic between updates. I was told: "MySQL is ****. Buy Oracle." It will cost only roughly 100K usd + expensive expert, because nobody can work with it.

    So it does not matter so much if the stats would be realtime or on demand. The database then would need to be made very differently, because in both cases you should be able to read from it (not directly to affiliate but to a proxy server, which will serve it to affiliate and that process called replication is critical), while it is written to it. And bugs occur all the time, we know that, so the real time stats would never be more accurate than delayed stats, with much higher risk that you can lose your players due the error or even a hack or attack (imagine that someone rogue will ask the database over and over and there will be overload).

    It is a doable solution, but Jesus Christ, most affiliate programs can not properly tag baners, sort them by GEO and keep them alive and that is something very easy to do compared to real time stats.

    The fastest updates with leads I have seen has Adcash (big big company), it is almost realtime, but still, the data are very inaccurate, they change with time and are adjusted all the time retroactively. There is a reason for it and the reason is costs.
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  15. #32
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    Some of that reply made me laugh out Loud Sherlock and took me back 15-20 years to when I was in the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherlock View Post
    But we are having the same problem now with our database server and it is horrible. One server is not enough, there is a need for master server and now backup slave server to which you have to switch traffic between updates. I was told: "MySQL is ****. Buy Oracle." It will cost only roughly 100K usd + expensive expert, because nobody can work with it.
    A bad craftman blames his tools. MySQL databases with PHP queries should be fine on any reasonable server with good memory for any affiliate site unless they are serving more than 500+ concurrent users at a time.

    You might have to optimise the application a bit and consider whether you need EVERY bit of data, you might need to streamline the code a bit, and ensure that you have the correct indexes on your databases to make complex queries easy to manage ... but that's all part of a good solution.

    However, for gambling sites that ARE serving 500, 700, 900+ users - and/or that need to offer 24/7 coverage even when doing upgrades (so a backup system in sync) then yes - they will want premium server hardware and software to handle the loads.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherlock View Post
    But ... most affiliate programs can not properly tag baners, sort them by GEO and keep them alive and that is something very easy to do compared to real time stats.
    LOL - this was funny - I can hear you saying that! Agreed that given the current state of affiliate offerings they are a lot of OTHER THINGS that I'd want to see sorted out BEFORE real time stats was a #1 priority.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherlock View Post
    There is a reason for it and the reason is costs.
    Indeed. When you scale to handle large volumes the cost of the solutions rises sharply and getting the expertise to do it well is expensive and often runs into significant delays.

    When you build a house the work is physical and the outputs are obvious. But even then many people have problems with project management and timeframes and understanding all the "invisible" work that goes into foundations and providing plumbing and electrical services. They see the framing, they see the roof and think the house should be nearly finished.

    With IT solutions, the issue is magnified, as much of it the real work is done "under the covers" and most people do not see or understand that the screens, reports, and other outputs are just the final window dressing - and only a small part of the puzzle.

    As you said - Real Time reporting IS possible - but only if the gaming platform was designed that way from the start. And once a program starts operating multiple platforms for different products ( games, casino, sports, bingo, poker, scratchies, betting exchange ) then each of them tends to be a little island of information. This makes delayed reporting the only viable solution for most multi-product multi-platform operators.

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  17. #33
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    Thx for the comments. The problem is that I do not have affiliate sites (except few small ones from stone ages), I have websites that I partly monetise through affiliate.

    Only small part of the database server is dedicated to ads and that is not the part that needs the replication etc., but there are other applications that need the database. There are tens of thousands users at peak times connected, so indeed guys who are doing databases for banks for example worked on it. MySQL database has limits, I believe them. If not, Larry Ellison would not be in top 10 richest people

    Why I am telling this is that I do have experience with large traffic. The affiliate software should be made for peak times and the peak times are for affiliate programs maybe 100x bigger (probably even more) than offpeak. But even during those peak times and especially during the peak times, the software and tracking must work for 100%. And that is a big problem. For eample Bet365 as we know update stats around noon. Why? It is offpeak times. Even the small peak in Australia is gone at the moment.

    To show some realtime data, if one counts all this together, is - as you say - much bigger problem than normal people imagine. It is not that simple that everything is done and stored somewhere and just some frontend can look there into the data. What is stored are just the metadata that are processed once a day (or few times a day). To process and count the data in every second or so is something up to 60x60x24 times more problematic.
    Last edited by Sherlock; 9 August 2014 at 7:04 am.
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  19. #34
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    We've now put in real time tracking on our websites so at least we see the clicks and interest in campaigns we're running at the time. It also gives us a chance to then reconcile these figures with what the affiliate systems are showing.

    We also collect a lot more business intelligence that helps us work out who is betting with who, on what, and how frequently etc etc to track suspected fraud/mistakes/discrepancies by advertisers and affiliate system stats. Having worked in business intelligence for some big corporates for a number of years before becoming an affiliate we realise that data feeds and links between disparate systems don't always work like they should do, so anything you can do on your side to gather information is key to being a successful affiliate.

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  21. #35
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    Why is it though that a bookie can pay you out within seconds of the final whistle on a game, because they want your money back in your account ready to play with on the next match, yet they sometimes can't even update your affiliate stats for a week?

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  23. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by webanalysissolutions View Post
    We've now put in real time tracking on our websites so at least we see the clicks and interest in campaigns we're running at the time. It also gives us a chance to then reconcile these figures with what the affiliate systems are showing.

    We also collect a lot more business intelligence that helps us work out who is betting with who, on what, and how frequently etc etc to track suspected fraud/mistakes/discrepancies by advertisers and affiliate system stats. Having worked in business intelligence for some big corporates for a number of years before becoming an affiliate we realise that data feeds and links between disparate systems don't always work like they should do, so anything you can do on your side to gather information is key to being a successful affiliate.
    This reminds me that I would rather see something like automatical geo tracking/city of registrations, which still is not automatic and to make separate trackers is something near impossible. I would also like stats like when (and maybe where) the bettor got his first, second etc cookie = how long it made until he is converted if he is regular visitor etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by webanalysissolutions View Post
    Why is it though that a bookie can pay you out within seconds of the final whistle on a game, because they want your money back in your account ready to play with on the next match, yet they sometimes can't even update your affiliate stats for a week?
    The database where results are matched with collected bets is much simpler and has way less data. Plus the higher costs there are justified for example by the reason you say: They want the money of the winners backand gamblers are not patient people (as their affiliates ).
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  25. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sherlock View Post
    This reminds me that I would rather see something like automatical geo tracking/city of registrations, which still is not automatic and to make separate trackers is something near impossible. I would also like stats like when (and maybe where) the bettor got his first, second etc cookie = how long it made until he is converted if he is regular visitor etc.
    We just try do the most we can to track every piece of data we can about our visitors and their activity. Advertisers (bookies) do this, so why not do this as an affiliate - it's gold dust in terms of information about your business. The problem is, is the disconnect between who you refer and what happens on the advertiser side, albeit you can determine your referral preferences and activity on your side if you're clever about it. Forget tracking on the advertiser side - do it yourself, on your side, before the referral is made.

    Ultimately if an advertiser is being honest and reporting true revenue to you, then all you need to worry about is the metrics you trust on your side - clicks, geos, ad positions, ad types etc, and if an advertiser doesn't convert as well as another advertiser for a particular metric in the reported revenue stats then you drop them automatically from you ad space.

    This is the way we run our business - advertisers get dropped automatically, based on performance stats if they don't perform. Some of them then do come crying back to us asking for premium space and giving us the big sales pitch that they do, but our ad solution is finely tuned to make the most of our visitors. If any advertiser is skimming/defrauding or any other dubious practices, or simply isn't performing in the market because they're offering unsustainable odds and bonuses that hit our revenue, they will be quickly weeded out from our systems.

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  27. #38
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    Back to the original question though - real time reporting is probably quite easy for some advertisers who operate their own in house affiliate systems - e.g. bet365. However, even in this scenario you're still trying to connect real-time betting systems with offline affiliate systems, so there's still a feed between the two I suspect.

    With most other advertisers they're using a 3rd party affiliate system based somewhere else in the world and based on some sort of loose service level agreement that no where near promises real time data e.g. Netrefer, Income Access. Clicks are real time, as they're handled through the affiliate system, but revenue has to be transferred from the advertiser to the 3rd party, usually daily.

    IMHO, if a couple of BIG advertisers started to do real time data then this would give them a massive advantage ahead of Netrefer and IncomeAccess based advertisers. Agreed that real time stats may not be much use to an affiliate, but if an affiliate starts to see real time stats they might then trust this sort of advertiser more, and advertise them more, therefore favouring the non-real-time advertisers less.

    Put it this way, if I were developing a new affiliate system from scratch, with no knowledge of history, I'd be looking at doing real time for sure. Some times people accept what has happened historically as the norm, instead of starting with a clean slate and analysing what requirements are needed.

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  29. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by webanalysissolutions View Post
    Forget tracking on the advertiser side - do it yourself, on your side, before the referral is made.
    I will not do it. I would, indeed, like to see the data, but I will not do it. It is beyond my possibilities and the revenue from this is not that big that it would justify the costs. The possibility that I will **** something up (e.g. lost traffic) is too high.

    The most important part - which traffic will convert - will be unknown even if I install some trackers between the click and the merchant.

    I indeed track my visitors. But for example I have 100+ domains and I have centralised ad system, because it is impossible to change ads on all websites with every campaign... so I would really like affiliates to tell me from which site the conversions come. I know there are more and more "do not tracks", but still I would like to see the big data, because then I can compare it with overall traffic and see which websites are relatively better and which are worse. Those are much simpler things that affiliate programs can do and it would bring much more value than some more frequent updates of stats.
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  30. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by webanalysissolutions View Post
    but if an affiliate starts to see real time stats they might then trust this sort of advertiser more, and advertise them more, therefore favouring the non-real-time advertisers less.
    I do not see a reason why I would trust them more. If we talk just about clicks, I know how much traffic I am sending them and I can see the numbers every time in 24 hour and it is fine (actually much better to compare 2 24 hour metrics than realtime metrics).

    Btw. Myaffiliates software (at least at Affiliate lounge and Commission lounge) do have realtime clicks with referrers. And, accidentally, I do not trust those 2 programmes very much.
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    when the last and the first latch on it can be shown
    ass-blood sucked by the first from the last is his own

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