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  1. #1
    frankm69 is offline Public Member
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    Question Investigation of Reported Winner Affiliates Payment Issue

    in december winner offered me to sending them players an a cpa deal and 1000 $ money to run private tournaments.

    i thought a platin sponsor at gpwa must be trustable

    so we setupt a tournament with 1000 $ added to the pricepool on december 22 and promote them at liveevents and on the internetsite
    (i`m working together with some live tournamentmanagers cause they have no time for the affiliatehings and share the comissions with them)

    we got over 80 registrations and 56 depositing players but they refused to pay the 8300 $ comission

    after the tournament the am told me that my players are not playing poker (i can`t imagine that this is really true cause when the players deposit money and play our tournament they have money left in their accounts and the only thing that they can do with this money is to play poker !) but i asked the am to give the players some time to play cause its xmas and they all are in stress with buying gifts...

    and i offered him to run another tournament and start a rakerace where we give away 3 entrys to the one million guaranteed tournament (all prices paid from me !) but never get an answer (normally a programm works together with their affiliates to get the best results of a relationship-but maybe thats only my opinion)

    i have shown the am where and how we promote the tournament at the site from the tournamentmanager

    the next thing that the am did was contacting the tournamentmanager and told him that winner is still interested in working together with him and want him to bring them more players-so he tried to bring me out of bussiness

    i hope you can explain here why you want more from these bad players that are not playing poker !?

    if this is the way you are doing bussiness you won`t go far

    at the end i want to say sorry to everyone who read this story in another affiliateforum but i see it as a performance of duty to warn other affiliates for working with these scammers

  2. #2
    Magenti is offline Private Member
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    Why is it that every Playtech group is fraudulent? I have had requests from winner.com but after reading this it seemes this brand new affiliate stoops as low as Europartners or Cpays has with me.

    If I didnt know better I would believe Winner.com was owned by EuroPartners as a second affiliate program. Most of their employes are ex partners.

    Frank, maybe post your stats so we can see?

  3. #3
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    I am not sure if I am in order or not posting this but I will anyway.

    I spoke to Winner AM and he has just lost a close family member to the world of spirit and has not been in his office the last 7 days.

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  5. #4
    frankm69 is offline Public Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by pompeyrayuk View Post
    I am not sure if I am in order or not posting this but I will anyway.

    I spoke to Winner AM and he has just lost a close family member to the world of spirit and has not been in his office the last 7 days.
    Sure thats a reason to stay away from bussiness that everyone has to accept and understand but we had contact before this happens and when he was back in his office after that and still nothing happens

    @magenti i`m not able to upload a screenshot- maybe i need some more posts here !?

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    no it is good affiliate program, how can we beleve you? who are you?

  7. #6
    pokertester-eu is offline Public Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by webmacho View Post
    no it is good affiliate program, how can we beleve you? who are you?
    why do you think is he posting here-making jokes or what ?

    how would you feel if you were scammed and someone makes such a comment like you ?

    if you take a look at other affiliateforums you will notice that he isn`t the only affiliate who has problems with them

    frank you can ask michael for help and i`m sure he will take a look at this issue and try to mediate

    send him a pm with details and proof(stats,emails etc)

    all sponsors here have agreed https://www.gpwa.org/sponsor/codeofconduct.asp

  8. #7
    Winneraff is offline Sponsor Affiliate Program
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    Default Winner

    Letís clarify some facts regarding your affiliate account at Winner Affiliates:<o></o>
    Someone contacted Winner Affiliates and asked for a CPA deal, and a special poker promotion at Winner.com. He claimed that he is representing a poker site, and that he can generate decent traffic. <o>

    </o>
    Soon after the promotion began we realized that all players are depositing exactly 20EUR. 100% of these players tried to make a deposit. Most players who managed to deposit at Winner.com, never logged back to their account. These are clear signs of a CPA abuser. Why would one deposit money at a poker room, but never play?<o></o>
    We have a fraud team which immediately noticed this subspecies activity, and informed us of the problem.<o></o>
    We sent an email to the owner of the poker site, informing him of the trouble with one of his moderators (apparently you). The owner of the site claimed that you are his friend, but he then created his own affiliate account.<o></o>
    Due to the confusing situation we asked not to send anymore traffic, and we offered the person 50% revenue share for this fraud traffic.<o></o>
    We ask for more time to investigate, but you chose to post disinformation on good affiliate forums. <o>

    </o>
    Our affiliate program is relatively new, yet we already paid thousands of affiliates. We pay full amounts, on time, even if the traffic looks bad, but why should we pay for fraud? <o></o>
    We have a huge budget for player acquisition, a very good product, and an experienced team of dedicated affiliate managers. They are here to manage real affiliates, and establish healthy business relationships<o></o>
    If you want to discuss further then contact me personally ilan @ WinnerAffiliates.com, or call me +44-800-0470-700.

  9. #8
    webmacho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pokertester-eu View Post
    why do you think is he posting here-making jokes or what ?

    how would you feel if you were scammed and someone makes such a comment like you ?

    First you don't talk with me like this. Tell me now, you smartass, what makes you think that I shuld beleve this guy? Why? Because he says so? I ask for a prooff.

    I can tell everyone here that you are a cheater? Are you? Why they shuld beleve me?

  10. #9
    webmacho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winneraff View Post
    Letís clarify some facts regarding your affiliate account at Winner Affiliates:<o></o>
    Someone contacted Winner Affiliates and asked for a CPA deal, and a special poker promotion at Winner.com. He claimed that he is representing a poker site, and that he can generate decent traffic. <o>
    ....</o>
    .
    Is there any minimum winner points number that particular players shuld play to make CPA deal valid? If not, it shuld be.

  11. #10
    frankm69 is offline Public Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winneraff View Post
    Let’s clarify some facts regarding your affiliate account at Winner Affiliates:<o></o>
    Someone contacted Winner Affiliates and asked for a CPA deal, and a special poker promotion at Winner.com. He claimed that he is representing a poker site, and that he can generate decent traffic. <o>

    from the beginning i told hanan that i`m not the owner of these sites but i`m working with them and am able to send a lot of new player-think 56 depositing players for the first month is not bad

    </o>
    Soon after the promotion began we realized that all players are depositing exactly 20EUR. 100% of these players tried to make a deposit. Most players who managed to deposit at Winner.com, never logged back to their account. These are clear signs of a CPA abuser. Why would one deposit money at a poker room, but never play?<o></o>

    20 euro is the minimum deposit that a player have to make. the players signed up cause they want to play the tournament with the added pricepool. i don`t believe that noone of them is coming back and noone of them is playing poker.

    why should they make bigger deposits if you only offer a 200 $ bonus at a rate with 100 points per bonusdollar ?

    you are part of a big network with about 40 pokerrooms and the most of them offer much better bonuses than you !

    why should they play at winnerpoker when you offer nothing special ? if you want to grow fast and become a big one in this network you have to do- maybe only my thought

    maybe offering a big tournament just before xmas to getting new players was a mistake

    i offered you a couple off times to run a rakerace with prices that i pay and i`m sure that all these players would like this and play much more but never get an answer on this

    why are you not working together with your affiliates if they try to drive the results going better ?


    We have a fraud team which immediately noticed this subspecies activity, and informed us of the problem.<o></o>
    We sent an email to the owner of the poker site, informing him of the trouble with one of his moderators (apparently you). The owner of the site claimed that you are his friend, but he then created his own affiliate account.<o></o>
    Due to the confusing situation we asked not to send anymore traffic, and we offered the person 50% revenue share for this fraud traffic.<o></o>

    you have made a deal with me so it doesn`t matter what the siteowner is doing !
    We ask for more time to investigate, but you chose to post disinformation on good affiliate forums. <o>

    i tell the story from my site cause i have no proof that the things you are saying are true and i know that some players are playing

    </o>
    Our affiliate program is relatively new, yet we already paid thousands of affiliates. We pay full amounts, on time, even if the traffic looks bad, but why should we pay for fraud? <o></o>

    maybe my players are bad (not playing much or didn`t find the time to play because xmas) but how could they be fraud if they all are playing in the tournament ?

    how could they be fraud if they are able to withdraw money after proving their identity ?

    so saying you pay the full amount on time even if the traffic looks bad can`t be true

    all the players you get are real players who made a deposit and qualify for a cpa-so you have to pay my comission


    We have a huge budget for player acquisition, a very good product, and an experienced team of dedicated affiliate managers. They are here to manage real affiliates, and establish healthy business relationships<o></o>
    If you want to discuss further then contact me personally ilan @ WinnerAffiliates.com, or call me +44-800-0470-700.
    Cost Per Acquisition (CPA)


    Winner.com offers its affiliates a very competitive CPA commission rate for real depositing poker players. You will receive a guaranteed flat rate for every new depositing player that you refer. The more players you bring, the more money per player you make. This structure delivers commission regardless of whether the player you referred wins or loses.

    Commission Tables

    The tables below set forth the consideration that applies to the Revenue Share and to the CPA payment plans. Table A shows the percentage levels that are set monthly according to your account's Casino Net Revenue. Table B shows the percentage levels that are set monthly according to your account's Poker Net Revenue. Table C shows the percentage levels that are set monthly according to your account's Bingo Net Revenue. Table D shows the stages of the Casino CPA payment plan, in accordance with the number of new qualifying Players that you directed to the Sites each month. Table E shows the stages of the Poker CPA payment plan, in accordance with the number of new qualifying Players that you directed to the Sites each month. Table F shows the stages of the Bingo CPA payment plan, in accordance with the number of new qualifying Players that you directed to the Sites each month.

    CPA Plan - Poker:

    1 to 10 new players per month - $70 CPA per player
    11 to 20 new players per month - $80 CPA per player
    21 to 30 new players per month - $95 CPA per player
    31 to 40 new players per month - $120 CPA per player
    41 to 50 new players per month - $135 CPA per player
    51 new players and more per month - $150 CPA per player

    *A "new player" is a player directed by you who makes a minimum initial deposit of $20.
    Last edited by frankm69; 17 January 2010 at 8:31 am.

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  13. #11
    webmacho's Avatar
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    LOL Who is giving players CPA only for deposit, that is not how the job is done.
    This is clear winneraffiliates problem, they can NOT made promises what they can NOT keep.

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  15. #12
    pokertester-eu is offline Public Member
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    when a programm offers private tournaments with a big sponsored pricepool to get many new players and offered the affiliate to pay a cpa for every player that makes a deposit they have to pay this affiliate for all the players

    are you really wondering about small deposits ?

    this kind of marketing only attracts bonushunters who makes small deposits to play a tournament with big value

  16. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by pokertester-eu View Post
    when a programm offers private tournaments with a big sponsored pricepool to get many new players and offered the affiliate to pay a cpa for every player that makes a deposit they have to pay this affiliate for all the players
    100% true.

  17. #14
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    Let me get this right

    Every player that was sent, depoisted $20 but never played

    And for all these deposits of players that depoit exactly $20 the webmaster wants $70 and upwards for each player

    Winner.com then suspects that something is going on and decides not to pay.

    They base their decision on not paying on the fact that they believe that all the depositing players never played a hand of poker and that fraud is at play

    Have i got it right?
    Arthritis Care

    To find true bravery and courage all one need do is look in to the eyes of a sick child - A humble parent

  18. #15
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    Almost - except I reckon that the ORIGINAL POSTER wants a CPA of $150 per player as he managed to find slightly over 51 (the top teir) "new depositors" ... even though they don't actually want to play $20 poker.

    Fancy that ...


    AFFILIATE PROGRAM AT FAULT ?
    I've got to say that WinnerAffiliates were pretty naive running with a set of T&C's that does open themselves up to significant losses with low quality traffic ... normally a poker CPA has some sort of turnover, rake requirement or "play points" associated with it doesn't it?

    and just because a program gets bad quality players should not allow an automatic renegging of the T&Cs while still retaining the T&Cs.

    WinnerAffiliates should take a look around and be doing a re-write specifying a much more exacting quality criteria than simply depositing $20.

    AFFILIATE FRAUD.
    Let face it it does happen with CPAs - especially weakly written CPA terms.

    If the affilaite prgram is handing out $150 for a $20 deposit, then a rogue affiliate stands to make $130 x 56 = $7280 even if they offer to pay the $20 deposit to each player.

    In some countries that's a very valuable target for scammers.

    THESE ARE POOR QUALITY PLAYERS - ARE THEY STILL VALID ?
    But I'd also say that if the players are not even playing through their deposits, and there is demonstratable player identity fraud - then I would not expect the program to be bound by the contract terms.

    But has it been demonstrated satisfactorily?
    Do they exist?
    Have any of them produced identiifcation documents ?
    Have any of them played outside of this tournament ?

    Are the GPWA able to take an "independant" look at the evidence?
    This is a platinum "sponsor" after all ...

    Or what about the GAU?

    ------------------------

    Gents - let's get some discernable examination and closure on this one - because right now BOTH participants (the affiliate and the program) are being tarred with FRAUD accusations - and it's not a good look for the GPWA either.

    The status quo simply paints everyone in a bad light.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGooner View Post
    Are the GPWA able to take an "independant" look at the evidence?
    I'm going to have us follow-up with Winner Affiliates and try to make sure there is a proper resolution of the matters raised in this thread.

    In the meantime, I think Gooner is right that while there is a bad situation to sort out here in terms of the accusations being made, it is also not appropriate for the rest of us to be taking sides right now because the information in this thread is not complete enough to be able to take a firm position either way regarding who is in the right in this particular situation.

    The only thing that is clear that the current terms and conditions leave winner affiliates vulnerable to being scammed, and so independently of the outcome of the particular issue being raised in this thread, I'm hoping they will come away from this thread with better terms in place in the end.

    Michael
    GPWA Executive Director, Casino City CEO, Friend to the Village Idiot

    Resources for Affiliates: iGamingDirectory.com, iGamingAffiliatePrograms.com, GamingMeets.com

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  22. #17
    frankm69 is offline Public Member
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    thanks for your advice-this is really a statement from a neutral site

    Quote Originally Posted by TheGooner View Post
    Almost - except I reckon that the ORIGINAL POSTER wants a CPA of $150 per player as he managed to find slightly over 51 (the top teir) "new depositors" ... even though they don't actually want to play $20 poker.

    the question is if its true what winneraffiliates are telling me (no proove only a statement) ilan told me that only 4 players have plaid poker and the others never did-we are running offline tournaments i talked to some players and find out that 10 other players have plaid there a couple of times and at this point i stopped to find a solution with him

    Fancy that ...


    AFFILIATE PROGRAM AT FAULT ?
    I've got to say that WinnerAffiliates were pretty naive running with a set of T&C's that does open themselves up to significant losses with low quality traffic ... normally a poker CPA has some sort of turnover, rake requirement or "play points" associated with it doesn't it?

    and just because a program gets bad quality players should not allow an automatic renegging of the T&Cs while still retaining the T&Cs.

    WinnerAffiliates should take a look around and be doing a re-write specifying a much more exacting quality criteria than simply depositing $20.

    AFFILIATE FRAUD.
    Let face it it does happen with CPAs - especially weakly written CPA terms.

    If the affilaite prgram is handing out $150 for a $20 deposit, then a rogue affiliate stands to make $130 x 56 = $7280 even if they offer to pay the $20 deposit to each player.

    In some countries that's a very valuable target for scammers.

    for sure this is interesting for scammers in every country

    THESE ARE POOR QUALITY PLAYERS - ARE THEY STILL VALID ?
    But I'd also say that if the players are not even playing through their deposits, and there is demonstratable player identity fraud - then I would not expect the program to be bound by the contract terms.

    but who has to proove this and how can it be done ?

    But has it been demonstrated satisfactorily?
    Do they exist?
    Have any of them produced identiifcation documents ?
    Have any of them played outside of this tournament ?

    i think i can trust my players (why should they lie ?) if its true what ilan has told me 4 players had withdrawn money-so they have prooven their identity. i can send out 4000 emails and ask the players to proove their identity-but how does it look and why should they do it and at the end would it help to resolve this issue ?

    Are the GPWA able to take an "independant" look at the evidence?
    This is a platinum "sponsor" after all ...

    Or what about the GAU?

    i have contacted gau and wait for an answer

    ------------------------

    Gents - let's get some discernable examination and closure on this one - because right now BOTH participants (the affiliate and the program) are being tarred with FRAUD accusations - and it's not a good look for the GPWA either.

    The status quo simply paints everyone in a bad light.
    Last edited by frankm69; 21 January 2010 at 10:58 am.

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    so i`m not the only one

    they offered me a nice cpa and 2000 $ for private tournaments
    i allways start carefull with new rooms so i promoted them slowly and only send them 15 players

    after running the first tournament with 200 $ added pricepool my am told me that they are not happy cause all my players used paysafecard (here in germany 90% use paysafecard so thats normal) and only made small deposits

    as they are part of a network with around 40 different rooms and their first deposit bonus isn`t attractive it was not a surprise for me

    i requested to setup the next tournament but the am didn`t answer (at the beginning he allways did within a few minutes !)

    after a couple of emails and days they told me that my players are not playing poker (are you really wondering about this ? if you are a pokerplayer and i promise you that you can play in 10 private tournaments with added pricepool of 200 $ when you create an account there and after one tournament there are running no others every player felt scammed !)

    they refused to pay me 3000 $ comission-were not answering to my emails but the worst thing is that i get a bad reputation at my players

    after a couple of emails asking for payment and running the other tournaments-still no answer

    after sending an email to their head of affiliates and letting them now that i`m going to post about this issue in different affiliateforums they told me that all my players are using the same computer lol

    sorry but its really bad that they don`t know how their software is working
    i don`t now any pokerroom out there where it is possible for two players to play in the same tournament from the same computer

    and on top of this i made my am a contact to a masteraffiliate he promised to add him as my subaffiliate but they hold nothing that they have promised

  24. #19
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    I quote below from a post made in a thread on the forum www.forum.wettpoint.com on 1 December 2009. The post has since been deleted but I have access to an archived version of the thread in which the post was made by frankm69nrw. The original post is in German and this is a machine translation of that post.

    I will try again to eliminate some chaos

    We need a minimum of 10 participants (currently we have 6) that are available to create 5 new account at Poker sellers and pay something there and play poker (the minimum conditions which must be satisfied forever behind the vendors, sometimes even reaches the initial contribution and while others require either a certain number of points earned or be a certain amount has been generated in rake)

    Whether you create the accounts yourself, or friends or family members persuaded there is up to you, sign-it comes out onto same.

    Teilnehemn Who wants to write me, in which sellers they want to register and then he gets special sign on the left there around

    With 10 participants, we get an EPT together ticket and then at 20 just 2

    This / s ticket / s then we play among the participants from this-we will then discuss among the participants whether we will or 4 tournaments in a make (then without buyin tournaments for $ 1 or if it must be)

    Which one of the vendors to choose from the various participants have opened an account does not matter

    The winner of this tournament gets the EPT tournaments Ticket

    Should he come into the money there, he receives 50% of the profits and the remaining 50% will be distributed in equal shares among all participants

    If after the purchase of tickets still left over money, it will be distributed to the courts 2 a.m. to 3 p.m. in the tournament (60 + 40%)

    If for any reason the purchase of a ticket to the EPT Dortmund is not possible to be sold (for example), we shall all choose a replacement tournament where Buyin and profit opportunities in some of the same EPT Dortmund

    The whole should be to the end of this week, then the participants are still almost 2 weeks have time to create the accounts and to fulfill conditions (what should have happened to the end of January)

    The commissions that are paid between 20-25 of the following month as the end of February, then the tickets can be purchased until then we should then also / the winners have played

    Vendor selection:

    Everest minimum deposit 20 euro
    Titanium minimum deposit 20 euro
    Mansion minimum deposit 50 $
    Pacific Poker minimum deposit 20 euro
    Poker770 minimum deposit 40 $

    Betway $ 20 rake
    PKR $ 30 rake
    Fulltilt 100 points
    Redkings 100 points
    Party Poker 30 raked hands
    Hollywood Poker $ 25 rake
    I would like to assist the assistance of a private member of the GPWA who can read through the original German archive of the subject post and the whole thread of discussion around it to try to determine exactly what was going on. The preliminary information I have been provided with by a third party is that this entire operation was a scam, and I would like some independent help from someone I can trust (hence why as for the help of a private GPWA member who speaks German) to try to interpret what is being said in the thread.

    I have also been provided some evidence that the posters in this thread supporting the allegations of frank69 are either duplicate accounts or else close working associates. For example, I have information linking frank69 to the site www.pokertester.eu and one of the supporters of the allegations has username pokertester-eu. Both accounts pokertester-eu and maik were created using free e-mail accounts at gmx.de, and both were registered specifically for the purpose of posting in this thread. Without a posting history here I think we need to at least assume that if they are separate individuals they were invited by frank69 to post here in support of his position. That of course is perfectly fine if they really are separate individuals reporting on separate issues.

    In any event, because of the issues that have been brought to my attention, I have made a decision to change the title of this thread to "Investigation of Reported Winner Affiliates Payment Issue"

    Michael
    GPWA Executive Director, Casino City CEO, Friend to the Village Idiot

    Resources for Affiliates: iGamingDirectory.com, iGamingAffiliatePrograms.com, GamingMeets.com

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  26. #20
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    so frankm69 is German and he is a cheater. OK. problem sloved

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