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  1. #21
    Betpartners's Avatar
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    Well all i can say at this time is very interesting, very interesting indeed.
    Arthritis Care

    To find true bravery and courage all one need do is look in to the eyes of a sick child - A humble parent

  2. #22
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    it is

  3. #23
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    If it turns out that this was indeed a scam and i say IF, no accusations, then it is sad the way this has been conducted.

    The opeing poster has posted the exact same over at CAP and PAL and Maik as also done the same, in fact even some of their responses have been copied and pasted from one forum to another.

    The power of forums to damage a brand name is frightening and this incident IF shown to be a scam leaves a seriously bad taste in ones mouth.

    I would urge anyone that is a member at CAP and PAL to maybe stick up a post there that at least shows that there is some doubt over the validity of the claims that have been made.

    If winner are exonerated maybe they will have learnt something from this in relation to their terms and conditions and their CPA offerings.
    Arthritis Care

    To find true bravery and courage all one need do is look in to the eyes of a sick child - A humble parent

  4. #24
    frankm69 is offline Public Member
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    @ michael

    the post at wettpoint you are refering to is from 2008 and has nothing to do with promoting winnerpoker (or did you read there something about winnerpoker ?)

    i know maik from CAP where he has posted his issues with winneraffiliates in my thread and i know pokertester-eu cause i sold him one of my sites

    having friends here does automaticly mean that i`m a scammer ?

    i can proove all the things that i have written here about my issue with winner and for sure i can proove my identity

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by frankm69 View Post
    the post at wettpoint you are refering to is from 2008
    As stated in my post above, the post I quoted is from 1 December 2009.

    I'd like to be clear that I have not taken a position myself here, I have just stated here a portion of the information that has been provided to me and the currently unproven opinions that have been shared with me. I felt it fair to let other webmasters know the situation did involve some complications.

    Our goal is to get to the bottom of this matter. Not being able to read German myself, it is really hard for me to understand exactly the nature of the promotions in which you were involved in the specific thread from which I posted, and from other threads that have been pointed out to me.

    In the meantime I also wanted to make is clear that the supporting posters were new posters here and that a question had been raised regarding who they were and their relationship with you.

    Michael
    GPWA Executive Director, Casino City CEO, Friend to the Village Idiot

    Resources for Affiliates: iGamingDirectory.com, iGamingAffiliatePrograms.com, GamingMeets.com

  6. #26
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    Politics?

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by webmacho View Post
    Politics?
    Of course. When allegations are made about a program by a webmaster and then questions are raised by other webmasters about those allegations in pm messages to me then there are politics involved. I would like to be clear that my posts here today were in response to feedback I received earlier today about this thread from fellow webmasters, and not in response to any feedback regarding this thread from winner affiliates.

    And that there are politics involved is especially true when I don't currently have enough details to know whether to trust the allegations or know how to read the language that has to be read to understand the implications of background material related to the case.

    From my perspective there are serious issues here, and there are definite political issues around making sure everyone reading this thread does not think it is appropriate to draw any firm conclusions one way or another at this moment.

    A couple days ago I gave Anthony the task of trying to get to the bottom of what was going on here (especially since I will be out of town for the next week).

    Anthony is trying to research the situation taking into account information he is able to find out from frankm69, from winner affiliates, and from web masters and third-parties who can provide us with additional background information.

    Michael
    GPWA Executive Director, Casino City CEO, Friend to the Village Idiot

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  8. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to MichaelCorfman For This Useful Post:

    Anthony (24 January 2010), webmacho (24 January 2010), Ziggy (23 May 2010)

  9. #28
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    True. I admire your work Michael.. we shuld wait for evidance

  10. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelCorfman View Post
    As stated in my post above, the post I quoted is from 1 December 2009.

    I'd like to be clear that I have not taken a position myself here, I have just stated here a portion of the information that has been provided to me and the currently unproven opinions that have been shared with me. I felt it fair to let other webmasters know the situation did involve some complications.

    Our goal is to get to the bottom of this matter. Not being able to read German myself, it is really hard for me to understand exactly the nature of the promotions in which you were involved in the specific thread from which I posted, and from other threads that have been pointed out to me.

    In the meantime I also wanted to make is clear that the supporting posters were new posters here and that a question had been raised regarding who they were and their relationship with you.

    Michael
    sorry michael but this is impossible because my last activity there was in march2009 and i would be more than happy to send you a proove (screenshoot from user last login !) of this by email !

    the promotin there was saying if we get xxx new players we are giving away a ept ticket- its a year ago and has nothing to do with this issue here

    we have promoted winnerpoker only at teddypoker.de and have sent out emails to their members and nowhere else

    maik is a member at CAP since 2 years so i think he is trustable and can proove what he is saying,too

  11. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by frankm69 View Post
    sorry michael but this is impossible because my last activity there was in march2009 and i would be more than happy to send you a proove (screenshoot from user last login !) of this by email !
    I went back and looked again, and now understand what happened. The date on the post is 12.01.2009. Being so used to US date conventions I read this as December 1, 2009 rather than as 12 January 2009. It is specifically to avoid such confusion that all of the sites I am involved with follow a convention of day month year with the month spelled out rather than shown as a number - that way nobody will be confused about dates.

    Anyway because I'm packing now for my flight that leaves first thing tomorrow morning, I will probably not be posting further for the time being.

    Michael
    GPWA Executive Director, Casino City CEO, Friend to the Village Idiot

    Resources for Affiliates: iGamingDirectory.com, iGamingAffiliatePrograms.com, GamingMeets.com

  12. #31
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    I signed up after I saw this thread linked on an other forum and I want to make some things clear, because Franks explanations about the posted old thread are a just not true.

    It is not true that he had a pokerroom, that wanted to donate a buyin. His posting is clear, where the words are:
    When we find 20 guys who each signs up at 5 rooms and deposti just a little bit and then start to play, we will get high CPA for everyone of them, so we can have one buyin. BUT ne scamed ALL users of this forums, because a bunch of guys signed up and there was never the tournament with this seat or anything for them! Later they tried to get in contact with frank through phone, email and never got an answer. Pokertester is HIS site, without any discussion because he was already advertising with this site on the German forum and when you look at his profile of the German forum, he use an email adress of pokertester.

    Was it naive from winner not to loos exact for their terms: YES
    Is Frank a scamer: in my eyes and in eyes of a bunch of guys from the German forum: big YES!

  13. #32
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mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-ascii-theme-fontinor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri; mso-fareast-theme-fontinor-latin; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-theme-fontinor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family:Arial; mso-bidi-theme-fontinor-bidi;} .MsoChpDefault {mso-style-type:export-only; mso-default-props:yes; mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-ascii-theme-fontinor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri; mso-fareast-theme-fontinor-latin; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-theme-fontinor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family:Arial; mso-bidi-theme-fontinor-bidi;} .MsoPapDefault {mso-style-type:export-only; margin-bottom:10.0pt; line-height:115%;} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in; mso-header-margin:.5in; mso-footer-margin:.5in; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-priority:99; mso-style-qformat:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin-top:0in; mso-para-margin-right:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:10.0pt; mso-para-margin-left:0in; line-height:115%; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-ascii-theme-fontinor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-theme-fontinor-fareast; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-theme-fontinor-latin;} </style> <![endif]--> We run a young affiliate program, promoting a good brand. Image is one of the most important aspects for an affiliate program, especially a new program, which must build up a good reputation.
    We are working hard to develop a good image, but does it mean I should pay for fraud traffic? If 2 or 3 CPA abusers decide to damage Winner Affiliates by posting on decent forums then I suddenly have to pay for their fraudulent activity?
    Both these people, Mika and Frankm69 approached us. They asked for a CPA deal and a guaranteed prize pool for private tournaments. We were generous enough to agree to most of their conditions (Iíll save everyoneís time and will avoid posting all of their email here).
    They both have players who tried signing up at Winner from the same computer. It still doesnít mean that those people managed to play at the same tournament.
    When the affiliate managers and I asked to speak over the phone they came up with excuses Ė one said that he lost his voice and that he is on the way to the doctor. That same guy told me later on that his English isnít good enough. When I said that I have a German speaker in the office, and that he can translate then he totally ignored and just kept threatening that if I donít pay some money then heíll keep trashing us on forums.
    It really feels like blackmail. The fact that we have already paid hundreds of thousands of dollars this month speaks for itself. We have plenty of money, which is being spent on affiliates, on promotions, and on many other activities. We are about to add a sportsbook and turn Winner into one huge brand. We work with big affiliate and with small forums. All the money has been paid on time, and the fact is that most affiliates are pushing us up on their sites (or push Winner harder among their offline communities).

  14. #33
    maik is offline New Member
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    as we both are new users here i understand critisism and sceptisism

    i have asked the GAU for help in my case

    michael feel free to ask paul or another member of their staff if i have send them things that proove my story

    winneraff you are totally ignoring me please answer my question how can 15 players play in a private tournament using the same computer ?

    try it out-its impossible

    you are only saying "It still doesn’t mean that those people managed to play at the same tournament" but they all did play in these tournament !

    and why is the subaffiliate i brought you not connected to my account as jonathan has promised to do ?

    and to make the things clear-you never asked to call me !

    you keep lying even if its prooven that your statement is impossible

  15. #34
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    It looks like this will end up a case of affiliate fraud thanks to Michael's information and the members of the German forum who appear to be siding with Winner Affiliates here. Regardless of the outcome, I would like to suggest to Winner Affiliates that in order to avoid this type of situation in the future, rewrite your Terms and Conditions. It's obvious to everyone (especially scammers) that offering CPA on a minimum player deposit of $20 with no other qualifying criteria is going to lead to massive amounts of abuse.

    Winner is not the only program offering these low requirements either, so I suggest that all programs who offer these types of incentives should take a very close look at their T&C's.
    Terry - The Pokerkeep
    President / CEO - Gambling Affiliates Union

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  16. #35
    maik is offline New Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by WPuser View Post
    I signed up after I saw this thread linked on an other forum and I want to make some things clear, because Franks explanations about the posted old thread are a just not true.

    It is not true that he had a pokerroom, that wanted to donate a buyin. His posting is clear, where the words are:
    When we find 20 guys who each signs up at 5 rooms and deposti just a little bit and then start to play, we will get high CPA for everyone of them, so we can have one buyin. BUT ne scamed ALL users of this forums, because a bunch of guys signed up and there was never the tournament with this seat or anything for them! Later they tried to get in contact with frank through phone, email and never got an answer. Pokertester is HIS site, without any discussion because he was already advertising with this site on the German forum and when you look at his profile of the German forum, he use an email adress of pokertester.

    Was it naive from winner not to loos exact for their terms: YES
    Is Frank a scamer: in my eyes and in eyes of a bunch of guys from the German forum: big YES!
    i don`t know what happened there but this is not related to the issue with winneraffiliates cause this case is over one year old

  17. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by maik View Post
    i don`t know what happened there but this is not related to the issue with winneraffiliates cause this case is over one year old
    maik,
    I would suggest that you withdraw from this discussion and let the GAU speak on your behalf. By continuing to post, you are undermining the ability of the GAU to negotiate/mediate for you.
    Terry - The Pokerkeep
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  18. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by maik View Post
    i don`t know what happened there but this is not related to the issue with winneraffiliates cause this case is over one year old
    this is a great example why it is nearly impossible to believe you are somebody neutral and not franks other account...........I made clear, that frank made some fraud and I think I explained this in some easy to understand way, but then you use the same (really strange) argument, that it is over a year gone? so he cheated users and pokerrooms, but this doesn't matter because it is over a year ago and you are defending him with same arguments like he did..........sure dude. sorry, but this just smells like franks work.
    AND the fact, that you made some copy and paste with your PAL thread is funny, including such dramatic sentence like "so i`m not the only one" that you repeated on both sides and of course all of you guys just made copy and paste to toher forums and nobody posted somethink like "as I already written on.....".....is it just using of some logic......and analysing of usual human behaviour if somebody is really different person.

  19. #38
    maik is offline New Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by WPuser View Post
    this is a great example why it is nearly impossible to believe you are somebody neutral and not franks other account...........I made clear, that frank made some fraud and I think I explained this in some easy to understand way, but then you use the same (really strange) argument, that it is over a year gone? so he cheated users and pokerrooms, but this doesn't matter because it is over a year ago and you are defending him with same arguments like he did..........sure dude. sorry, but this just smells like franks work.
    AND the fact, that you made some copy and paste with your PAL thread is funny, including such dramatic sentence like "so i`m not the only one" that you repeated on both sides and of course all of you guys just made copy and paste to toher forums and nobody posted somethink like "as I already written on.....".....is it just using of some logic......and analysing of usual human behaviour if somebody is really different person.
    why should i write the same story again and again ?

    i haven`t so much time and for sure i`m not neutral cause i although was scammed by winneraffiliates

    if its true what you are saying (don`t know who you are and theres no proove only your statement) it looks bad at him

    but this is not my issue so i`m out of this discussion now but i still have no problem to proove my id

  20. #39
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    the story I wrote happend in the forum. There was a link to a cache file, but I am sure forummembers can repeat it. The posting is possible for everybody to read..........and this is fraud what you can read there.

  21. #40
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    Sounds like a mess to me to unravel. I still may give Winners a try since they asked.

    We shall see...

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