A little off topic - What are your views on the Bali 9 ring leaders?

[Gamble 4 Keeps]

Just thought i would see what peoples opinions are in relation to the Bali 9 ring leaders:

http://www.news.com.au/world/asia/ba...-1227251850178

My view is, the death penalty should not be imposed. They have rehabilitated, helped countless people from that country inside prison. I think the countries death penalty laws are too strict. I also think a death penalty should only be imposed if you have taken a life yourself.

There is no question they should receive a long jail term sentence, but not death! Anyone on here from Bali it would be good to hear your views as well.

[Renee]

Just thought i would see what peoples opinions are in relation to the Bali 9 ring leaders:

http://www.news.com.au/world/asia/ba...-1227251850178

My view is, the death penalty should not be imposed. They have rehabilitated, helped countless people from that country inside prison. I think the countries death penalty laws are too strict. I also think a death penalty should only be imposed if you have taken a life yourself.

There is no question they should receive a long jail term sentence, but not death! Anyone on here from Bali it would be good to hear your views as well.

At first I thought they deserved whatever they got BECAUSE they knew the consequences before they did it, yet did it anyway. Just because you don't physically kill someone with your own hand, does not mean you have not taken a life. Drugs kill people every day and they enabled it by smuggling those drugs. A paedophile doesn't always kill someone. What are your views on the death penalty for them?

I have a lot of experience with drugs. An ex of mine took a lot of them and it ruined both of our lives. I wont even go into the things he did to me when he was coming down. It didn't have to kill him to "kill him", and me. I've never fully recovered mentally from the experience and it took me years to recover financially. We were together for 5 years and it broke me as a person. Since then I have no tolerance for drugs. If someone takes them, I'd rather they not be in my life regardless of who they are.

So a few weeks ago on the radio I heard an Aussie person from Indonesia talk about what will happen to them, how the firing squad works etc. It made me extremely sad for them. I didn't realise that they do it in the most inhumane way possible. For example, some of the shooters have blanks and some have bullets. They have 12 shots each. If the shots do not kill them, the head of the squad then shoots them in the head until they are dead.

Noone deserves to die that way IMO.

I don't think they should be killed. But I do think they deserve to be punished. To say that they have changed in their ten years in prison doesn't discount what they did. They knowingly broke the law, however I don't believe the penalty should be death.

I'd be interested to know Indonesia's justification for their tough laws.

[DanHorvat]

To combine this with that other thread, these guys were trafficking drugs in a country where that is punishable by death, and our new member Danny wants to start a bookie in a country where betting is illegal.

[TheGooner]

It's certainly a controversial point - the death penalty always seems draconian to people from countries where there is no death penalty.

But to put it into context : Indonesia is very tough on drugs and drug smugglers because it's a "poor" country on the border of a lot of drug producing countries and without very strict laws and punishments in place there is the potential for anarchy with such high rewards for what appears to be an "easy" crime.

Indonesia's government feels that it is very important to law and order in Indonesia that the death penalty is in place. Death by firing squad IS a strong sentence - but it is one that resonates strongly with the local people - and prevents the crime being undertaken lightly.

It is important to understand a country - and why the crime / sentence is structured as it is.

As I understand it - there is no denial of guilt here the nin people admit their guilt - and so the death sentence should not modified or mollified according the nationality of the offenders. Nor should Indonesia have to pay to house these criminals for a lifetime sentence.

Carry out the sentence.

For example, some of the shooters have blanks and some have bullets. They have 12 shots each. If the shots do not kill them, the head of the squad then shoots them in the head until they are dead.

Noone deserves to die that way IMO.

The mix of bullets - blanks and real bullets - is done so that an individual shooter can NOT be specifically blamed for the death of the convicted felon. It is not done as a torment or a torture.

Does it seem so barbaric to you? Would drowning / water boarding be better? An electric chair? Or poison gas or drink?
Or perhaps a guillotine as was used in France?

Again - referring to my post above - this method is done BECAUSE it is seen to be a brutal and final judgement. It's very obvious nature is a fundamental part of making the full impact of the sentence seen around the country and the world.

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Derail

There are other countries where there are corporal punishment sentences for mocking the prophet Muhammad, for having sex before marriage, for petty theft and for drinking alcohol. Should they be stopped too - just because these acts are prevalent in "Western" countries?

Of course, from my point of view in a safe first world country, I do see the laws and sentences as "barbaric". I hope that one day these societies will see change to the laws. But they are what they are - and when you travel you are bound by local laws.

Africa / Asia / Arabia is not Europe or it's Western colonies. They are different cultures with different rules and different legal systems that have come through hundreds of years of practice. We cannot expect our Western rules to govern, and we should not seek to force them to change through external pressure.

/derail

[Renee]

It's certainly a controversial point - the death penalty always seems draconian to people from countries where there is no death penalty.

But to put it into context : Indonesia is very tough on drugs and drug smugglers because it's a "poor" country on the border of a lot of drug producing countries and without very strict laws and punishments in place there is the potential for anarchy with such high rewards for what appears to be an "easy" crime.

Indonesia's government feels that it is very important to law and order in Indonesia that the death penalty is in place. Death by firing squad IS a strong sentence - but it is one that resonates strongly with the local people - and prevents the crime being undertaken lightly.

It is important to understand a country - and why the crime / sentence is structured as it is.

Thanks for the explanation. I admit, I don't know enough about the country to know why they have these harsh rules but it certainly makes sense to me now.

As I understand it - there is no denial of guilt here the nin people admit their guilt - and so the death sentence should not modified or mollified according the nationality of the offenders. Nor should Indonesia have to pay to house these criminals for a lifetime sentence.

Carry out the sentence.



The mix of bullets - blanks and real bullets - is done so that an individual shooter can NOT be specifically blamed for the death of the convicted felon. It is not done as a torment or a torture.

Does it seem so barbaric to you? Would drowning / water boarding be better? An electric chair? Or poison gas or drink?
Or perhaps a guillotine as was used in France?

Again - referring to my post above - this method is done BECAUSE it is seen to be a brutal and final judgement. It's very obvious nature is a fundamental part of making the full impact of the sentence seen around the country and the world.

---------------------

I don't find the mix of blanks and real bullets barbaric. That part makes sense to me. The part I find barbaric is that one person can repeatedly shoot someone in the head until they are dead. I think all of the things you mentioned are barbaric. Lethal injection seems the least barbaric to me. Don't mistake my comments for me not believing in the death penalty. Paedophiles for example IMO should be subject to the death penalty.

I think if I had just heard about the firing squad I probably would have kept my opinion on the matter, but it was the single person shooting the prisoner in the head that made me change my mind. Maybe I'm getting far too empathetic in my old age.

Derail

There are other countries where there are corporal punishment sentences for mocking the prophet Muhammad, for having sex before marriage, for petty theft and for drinking alcohol. Should they be stopped too - just because these acts are prevalent in "Western" countries?

Of course, from my point of view in a safe first world country, I do see the laws and sentences as "barbaric". I hope that one day these societies will see change to the laws. But they are what they are - and when you travel you are bound by local laws.

Africa / Asia / Arabia is not Europe or it's Western colonies. They are different cultures with different rules and different legal systems that have come through hundreds of years of practice. We cannot expect our Western rules to govern, and we should not seek to force them to change through external pressure.

/derail

I wholeheartedly agree that when you visit a country you are bound by their laws, and I also don't believe Indonesia should have to pay to house the guys for the rest of their lives.

It's a tough debate. There's good argument from all sides really. If they don't get put to death, who houses them? Indonesia shouldn't have to, but then should Australian taxpayers have to fork out the bill?

As far as they are concerned, I can't imagine they will be "saved" now that they are on execution island. I can only imagine this is going to be something people talk about for a long time to come.

[Gamble 4 Keeps]

Thanks for the explanation. I admit, I don't know enough about the country to know why they have these harsh rules but it certainly makes sense to me now.



I don't find the mix of blanks and real bullets barbaric. That part makes sense to me. The part I find barbaric is that one person can repeatedly shoot someone in the head until they are dead. I think all of the things you mentioned are barbaric. Lethal injection seems the least barbaric to me. Don't mistake my comments for me not believing in the death penalty. Paedophiles for example IMO should be subject to the death penalty.

I think if I had just heard about the firing squad I probably would have kept my opinion on the matter, but it was the single person shooting the prisoner in the head that made me change my mind. Maybe I'm getting far too empathetic in my old age.



I wholeheartedly agree that when you visit a country you are bound by their laws, and I also don't believe Indonesia should have to pay to house the guys for the rest of their lives.

It's a tough debate. There's good argument from all sides really. If they don't get put to death, who houses them? Indonesia shouldn't have to, but then should Australian taxpayers have to fork out the bill?

As far as they are concerned, I can't imagine they will be "saved" now that they are on execution island. I can only imagine this is going to be something people talk about for a long time to come.

An ideal solution would be is for Indonesia send them back to Australia for their own country to deal with them. Indonesia should not have to pay for their housing in a prison. What other country issues death sentences for drug related offences?

Sure if you intentionally kill someone then you deserve to die yourself. As Renee asked (If your a child Molester) You need to be castrated or if (Female) Sown up and given the harshest jail sentence you could get.

I can relate to drug abuse, I have fostered children from drug abused families and seen first hand the destruction it can do. But you do not deserve to die because of it.

I was under the impression the men were trying to smuggle the drugs out of Indonesia to Australia were they not? So it should be Australia that deals with it. (I could be wrong)

[wonderpunter]

Ahhh Indonesia.. The pinnacle of legal law where the Mules get the death sentences and the high level drug dealers eat steak and drink champagne together with the political elite, and with regards to the admission of guilt.. Take that with a pinch of salt, forced, coerced how ever you want to call it one thing is for sure their methods of judging their prisoners of crimes is sloppy to say the least.

[sweetbet]

I'm personally not in favor of the death penalty, but if death by firing squad doesn't deter the drug dealers, then it's hard to imagine something that will. I also agree that Indonesia shouldn't have to pay to jail/house these criminals either. I'd be more in favor of seeing them sent back to their own countries to be dealt with there.

[Renee]

An ideal solution would be is for Indonesia send them back to Australia for their own country to deal with them. Indonesia should not have to pay for their housing in a prison. What other country issues death sentences for drug related offences?

Sure if you intentionally kill someone then you deserve to die yourself. As Renee asked (If your a child Molester) You need to be castrated or if (Female) Sown up and given the harshest jail sentence you could get.

I can relate to drug abuse, I have fostered children from drug abused families and seen first hand the destruction it can do. But you do not deserve to die because of it.

I was under the impression the men were trying to smuggle the drugs out of Indonesia to Australia were they not? So it should be Australia that deals with it. (I could be wrong)

They were smuggling the drugs into Indonesia AFAIK. The AFP dobbed them into Indonesian authorities then let them leave Oz.