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  1. #1
    dirk20 is offline Public Member
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    Default Need a lawyer to proceed against Condor Affiliates (b-Bets)

    Hi there,
    I like to ask for you help. Could someone advise a lawyer to me that is suitable for suing Condor Affiliates (b-Bets) due to their denying of paying my affiliate earnings?
    Maybe there's someone who has already had some similar trouble with another bookmaker and managed to get their share with legal support - which lawyer was proceeding this?

    The situation is as follows: I've been in the business of advertising online sportsbooks since 2005, mainly through websites oddsoddsodds.com and livelivelive.com as well as email marketing.
    Sometime last year I made the mistake to start advertising b-Bets but the first payment actually arrived on my bank account, so nothing suspicious back then.
    Now the situation is very different, Condor Affiliates owes me more then 4,500 Euro in commission payments (they don't deny the number itself) but refuses to pay. Instead, they have come a with a more or less sophisticated scheme in order to "save" that money. I have to admit, this is the lousiest business ethics I have experienced since 2005, I cannot remember something that absurd, though there have also been minor issues with other operators.

    They are actually claiming that I know the player that generated the according revenue, so they're accusing me of a fraud here. This is absurd and also an insult for me personally, the entire time operating in the business, I've never been involved in manipulation, needless to say. I asked them several times for any kind of evidence for this claim - but you wouldn't believe, Condor simply keeps refusing to answer this question.
    So, if someone here knows any method how I can prove on my own that I don't now that respective player, please tell me, I'm very open for suggestions. I don't know any way to do this and think, it's logically absolutely impossible.

    For reasons I don't understand yet, Condor believes that they can get away with this scam. Maybe they think that they have found the perfect crime: Simply making absurd claims that cannot be refuted and also don't provide any grounds for your accusations.
    Anyway, I want to make this as public as possible as well as sue Condor. Please help me with any advice, especially a potential lawyer that could deal with this kind of problem.

    Kind regards,
    Dirk

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  3. #2
    Triple7 is offline Private Member
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    This is a pathetic behaviour of Condor. In case they suspect fraud, they should give some evidence to prove it. I guess any judge would say that they have to prove their claims if not, they should just pay.

    Their affiliate program is operating from Curacao, so you should look for a lawyer there. Gaming Legal Group, for example, is specialised in gaming and based in Curacao. Or you should be able to prove they're operating from somewhere else. In that case, you can take them to court there.

    Honestly, I think it will be a difficult and relatively expensive case. First the case in court in Curacao and after that, you have a claim at something that seem to be some mailbox company.

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  5. #3
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    Normally we would not respond to these kind of threats and we are always willing to solve any issues which may arise privately.


    But this case is presented in such a strong wrong way, we have no other choice than giving transparency. The way this “affiliate” puts it, is so wrong and misrepresenting. Firstly I will publish the email which has been send to us as well, in which we, for the sake of privacy protection, left out the real name and real gmail address.




    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    ---------- Forwarded message ----------
    From: OddsOddsOdds <XXX@gmail.com>
    Date: Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 10:04 AM
    Subject: Battle plan






    Hi there,
    I want to let you know my schedule for the battle plan against your
    affiliate scam scheme, here it is.


    I already started making your methods public, in order to warn other
    people and reduce your revenue as much as possible, see here:
    gpwa.org/forum/need-lawyer-proceed-against-condor-affiliates-b-bets-236386


    This was the first step, the other actions are planned as follows:
    - July 4th and 5th: Posting the same scam report in all
    affiliate/sportsbetting boards that I can find.
    - July 6th and 7th: Mailing hundreds of business contacts that I have
    acquired since start in this business 2005. These are mainly website
    owners that advertise sportsbetting.
    - July 10th: Sending a mailer to the 55,000+ sportsbetting users from
    my websites that are registered and warning them against Condor/b-Bets
    as well.


    My estimation is, these steps will easily generate a loss of earnings
    of 100,000 Euro for you, more likely 150,000 Euro. So, you can see
    that trying to scam me is pretty expansive.


    Nevertheless, the planned steps will be stopped as soon as the payment
    of my money hits my banking account.
    Oh, it seems that the AAC starts July 11th. That's funny, so you will
    have a lot of fun there explaining your scam schemes to potential
    business partners. Nice.


    Kind regards,
    XXX XXXX




    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    From this email only, you can see the approach from the affiliate, while he is talking about business ethics. This has nothing to do with doing business ethics, and working on a high standard business level.
    The case is as follows:
    * affiliate has no website, so no means to promote our websites via websites. He has not been able to inform us how he had referred this player
    * affiliate sold his old site, and he had never made substantial turnover
    * the affiliate constantly checked the statistics right after the play session of this "player", as soon as the player logged out, the affiliate logged in.
    * the sold website does not even exist anymore, and redirects from before the traffic to the new owner, there have been no trackers online on the site anymore.




    Affiliate refuses:


    - to meet or to talk in person
    - to meet at the Amsterdam conference
    - to give us the traffic route for players
    - declining all our suggestions for solutions or further information


    This is for us considered a new affiliate. And the traffic pattern is at least fishy. Despite all our efforts to get some information from or about this affiliate and his business we stumbled up on silence. No one seems to know anything. Also seeing his GPWA profile, we cannot get a clear insight on the existence and the legitimacy of the traffic nor the affiliate. We have not been blocking any discussion: but I think it is understandable after getting these type of emails as upper, the will for us to spend time and effort in getting closer to a solution with these type of blackmails, is demotivating and not from a good standard.
    We will close the line of responses from our side on this forum related to this topic. As we are not willing to communicate on this level. Plus, the way this affiliate is acting is an infringement of our terms. If there are knowledgeable people who can give us insight about this person, case or business of the affiliate, we are more than happy to take this into consideration. For this, you can contact our affiliate department.


    Best Regards,
    Condor Affiliates

  6. #4
    dirk20 is offline Public Member
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    That's right, I am threatening Condor Affiliates and I have every right to do so since they own me money and are trying to scam me. Period.
    I will also proceed with a lawyer afterwards.

    I told Condor several times that I won't attend the AAC, so again, everybody can see that they're talking bullshit.
    I was referring players for b-Bets through my websites oddsoddsodds.com as well as livelivelive.com, also email marketing.

    This sentence here is a pure lie: "the affiliate constantly checked the statistics right after the play session of this 'player', as soon as the player logged out, the affiliate logged in."
    It's bullshit, they are making this up in order to save 4,500 Euro.

    Here are some more facts: I asked Condor several times to provide any grounds for their accusations. THEY DENIED TO ANSWER. Which also means THEY denied communication.
    It's pretty ironical that they suddenly start talking here in this board, just because I went public with their scam. Sadly, they're making some things up here.

    I also asked several times what would it help the situation when we meet at the AAC (which I don't go to), AGAIN REFUSED TO ANSWER THIS QUESTION.
    The entire situation is a perfect crime for Condor, I've never done any manipulation, that's for sure. But they know I cannot prove this (how could I?).

    PLEASE spread the word and tell everybody you know to avoid Condor!
    I will keep you updated with the legal dispute, I don't see how they can win this.

    @Condor scammers: Since you're here in this forum, explain what a meeting in person would help which I already asked you beforehand!

    Another insanity from your side, just an example: "refuses ... to give us the traffic route for players" - WTF?
    It's your damn system, why don't you tell me how this obscure player registered at your site? Unbelievable this kind of bullshit, I cannot hack into your system, why don't you go through your stats and see the referral?? How would I know what exact link someone came from if your ****** affiliate account doesn't report it?

    Can you believe this!? I've been listening to this kind of nonsense for weeks now!

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  8. #5
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    Can't say I am on the Condor side, but this case looks pretty tricky.

    Condor Affiliates, if you have IP addresses etc of the player, who spend so much money on your platform, then what's the problem? Usually when affiliate companies deny the payment, they in 99% cases make things up.

    The only good thing about Condor Affiliates here, is that they actually replied They are not ignoring, so I don't believe they are very fishy.

    I understand your frustration, Dirk, but was that 4500 euros lucky signup? Or you brought such BIG players all the time to Condor Affiliates?

    P.S. WePayAffiliates owe me $600, but they don't reply to any of my emails and just ignore me, from the looks of it I can't do much, because they are closing down pretty soon and of course $600 is not $6000.
    My website: http://mrbinary.co.uk/

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  10. #6
    dirk20 is offline Public Member
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    Hello MrBinary,

    I received a payment of 474.19 € from Condor for advertising b-Bets beforehand. The 4,500 later have been a bit lucky but not so much above the average compared to other affiliates (luckily Condor is the only trying to scam me).

    Most likely, the registration came from a mailer a sent to 55,000+ subscribers. But Condor didn't even say which date the registration took place; I don't even know how many players generated the revenue because their lousy affiliate system doesn't tell me.

    What exactly would you do at my stead?
    I'm not willing to flush 1,000 bucks down the toilet for a flight to Amsterdam and a hotel, not to mention the time spent on that.
    For several reason: First of all, it's absolutely unacceptable that a business partners needs to meet in person or travel somewhere in order to get their share in earnings. Imagine Bet365 would come up with such bullshit: "Yeah, thanks for your advertising, we appreciate that. However, we cannot pay you, first you need to travel to Amsterdam and meet us. Sorry but that's our terms. Thanks for understanding."

    Second, I asked several times, what would be the exact benefit of such a weird meeting, never received an answer which is again unacceptable for itself. I will, however, attend the BAC later this year and handout hundreds of pamphlets to warn others against Condor, in case they still owe me money then.

    So, their strategy seems currently that they will ask for arbitrary demands that no sane person could or would ever follow!?
    And as a self-fulfilling prophecy, they're just keeping my money - are they soon-to-be bankrupt or what is this all about ...

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  12. #7
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    I mean, I didn't work with Condor, so can't say. If other affiliates are happy with them, then your case is a bit odd.

    Regarding your 4500 euros. Let's be honest, if you didn't expect that payment, if you didn't work hard to get it (like invested money etc), then I would simply forget about it. 55,000+ subscribers list and only one registration? Condor Affiliates know by the fact where registration came from, email, direct, website, or search engine. It's a bit strange. You have small chances in court against them as well, and Condor guys know that. They have terms and conditions, protecting them from every angle. When you registered, you probably didn't even read it, but most affiliate companies say that they can any of your registered customers to be classed as a "fraud", we affiliate just have to live with that

    Write a compaint here: https://www.askgamblers.com/casino-a...liates-review/
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  14. #8
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    My Question is,

    what is the problem with the 4,5k Player. ?

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  16. #9
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    @CondorAffiliates Instead of publishing his email, it would be correct to present real fact(s) of fraud. You say that the traffic pattern is at least fishy. The pattern being "at least fishy" doesn't mean it is fishy: prove it or pay him his commission.

    You are talking about business ethics and high standard business level, so show your level in your acts, not only posting email copy and refusing to continue the discussion.

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  18. #10
    dirk20 is offline Public Member
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    @MrBinaryAff: It was more than 1 depositor as far as I know and see the statistics. Condor came up with "1 player", not me.
    I won't forget about that money, if you advertise for several sportsbooks, then sure, 1 or 2 might get luckier than others. If you give away money like that, it's definitely your own fault ...

    What does Condor do with this extra money? They have an effective revenue share of lousy 22.5%. But they are greedy enough to take the entire revenue and not paying any share to the advertiser? And you're defending them!?
    I guess, this is what this forum is all about, everybody can make up their own mind and think for themselves, do they like to work with ungrateful scammers.

    Everything I stated in this thread is 100% accurate. So, Condor now saying they don't pay me because I made the case public is ridiculous. Every judge in a court laughs their ass off when they hear this denial of payment.
    Very sad, the entire story extremely sad. Fact is that Condor would have made 20,000+ Euro less profit when I decided to NOT advertise them - which I wish I would have done and chosen a different business partner instead.

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  20. #11
    Triple7 is offline Private Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrBinaryAff View Post
    I mean, I didn't work with Condor, so can't say. If other affiliates are happy with them, then your case is a bit odd.

    Regarding your 4500 euros. Let's be honest, if you didn't expect that payment, if you didn't work hard to get it (like invested money etc), then I would simply forget about it. 55,000+ subscribers list and only one registration? Condor Affiliates know by the fact where registration came from, email, direct, website, or search engine. It's a bit strange. You have small chances in court against them as well, and Condor guys know that. They have terms and conditions, protecting them from every angle. When you registered, you probably didn't even read it, but most affiliate companies say that they can any of your registered customers to be classed as a "fraud", we affiliate just have to live with that

    Write a compaint here: https://www.askgamblers.com/casino-a...liates-review/
    If you didn't work hard for it.... And how you know this? Email databases for example also have to be collected. Or bought... And why should it be relevant? Shouldn't we get paid for players "we didn't work hard for" or "we didn't expect". That's a weird thing.

    Terms & conditions are terms & conditions. The law is the law. They should prove something, which they're here absolutely not doing.

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  22. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrBinaryAff View Post
    but most affiliate companies say that they can any of your registered customers to be classed as a "fraud", we affiliate just have to live with that

    Im 10 years on this market,and i get always every penny.

    My blacklists have 5k visitors daily and i dont care if a brand lose players,money or affiliates.

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  24. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by CondorAffiliates View Post
    Normally we would not respond to these kind of threats
    You've accused this affiliate of fraud, without providing any evidence, nothing. According to the affiliate, Condor owe's him Euro4,500 wont pay. If Condor tried this trumped up claim on other affiliates, most would Blacklist Condor Affiliates and, warn others partners on affiliate forums about your rogue act.

    No legitimate affiliate will accept being called a fraud, nor kiss goodbye Euro4,500 if that commission has been earned honestly.

    Condor is fortunate it's not me you own Euro4,500 to, because I'd make it my hobby for the next 12 months to ruin your brand/s!
    Last edited by AussieDave; 30 June 2017 at 5:56 pm. Reason: typo

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  26. #14
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    Neither party comes out well here - as the tone of both complaint and response are tinged with obvious anger that each group has towards each other. It's clear that there will not be a future relationship.

    But just looking at the issue independently ... can I restate what appear to be the facts to get some clarity.

    - Dirk (OddsOddsOdds) is an affiliate with Condor.
    - Dirk has some small success with Condor in the past.
    - Dirk introduced a large spending customer to Condor through some sort of web click - possibly a database mail out or a web click.
    - This customer has lost a large amount (12-15K?) and has generated Euro 4,500 in commission.
    - This commission has not been paid.

    Am I correct with this so far?

    Then there are various suggestions / hints that have followed - which can be summarised as :
    - Dirk doesn't have a website anymore.
    - Dirk won't say / can't say / doesn't know exactly how this customer registered.
    - Dirk appears to login in after the player plays to check stats suggesting a close relationship.
    - Condor are making an accusation of fraud to avoid paying.

    ---------------------------------------

    IF what is stated above is correct then I see a relatively easy solution.

    SOLUTION :
    Dirk should be paid the Euro 4500 commission that is owed according to the previous agreement (as long as all credit card charge back times have expired) . If the player did use a credit card, and it is recent, then the funds should be held for six month in some sort of escrow to be released 1 January 2018 - or at some agreed time.

    The affiliate / program relationship between the Dirk and Condor should be terminated - as there is little goodwill and no desire to continue.

    REASONING :
    As I understand it, the player has lost money and has NOT charged it back so there is no issue that this commission payment total of Euro 4,500 is owing to Dirk. This dispute about whether the player is known is impossible to determine in a "he said / he said" forum thread, but when boiling down the monetary details it is of little relevance. Even if there is a relationship, a program profit has been made and payment will not cause loss.

    So simply pay the affiliate and terminate the relationship. This is the simplest solution in a bad situation.

    ---

    I take on board that there is a discrepancy / issue regarding website ownership, recent sales, mailing lists et al, but frankly any active affiliate has many different methods of promotions outside direct website, including blogs, forums, social media like facebook, instagram and twitter that make it almost impossible to pinpoint any single registration as an affiliate.

    Some affiliate programs actually track refer clicks themselves and I would expect that the program has the most information about the player.

    ---

    I also take on board that this player may be known to the affiliate, or living in the same town, but if we ignore the fact that your terms and conditions may specifically exclude family members, the fact that they player is known is hardly a rational reason not to pay out on a rev-share deal where a profit has been made.

    I understand the logic behind related accounts, and losing an edge if the player is also the affiliate, but that is not what you are suggesting here, and even if there is a relationship, so far the Condor program is significantly ahead, so paying up and terminating the arrangement seems a prudent action.

    ----

    SUMMARY :
    There is a simple reconciliation available that leaves both groups still in profit from the situation - and then you can terminate the relationship.
    As far as I can understand - that is a win / win result.

    You can both decide to ignore a simple deal, and drag your accusations and threats out in public if you want - but that's a lose/lose situation.
    Condor will lose reputation and image, and frankly so will the affiliate. I also expect that no payment can be forced or threatened.

    Gentlemen - the choice is yours.
    Last edited by TheGooner; 30 June 2017 at 6:14 pm. Reason: more detail

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    Quote Originally Posted by dirk20 View Post

    What does Condor do with this extra money?
    I guess taking some extra lessons math....


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  30. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triple7 View Post
    I guess taking some extra lessons math....

    Rick is surely twitching.

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  32. #17
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    Thanks a lot, TheGooner, for the summary as well as thanks to everybody else for their statement. This is indeed a very constructive community. It's a pity, I didn't know GPWA much earlier. :/

    Quote Originally Posted by TheGooner View Post
    - Dirk appears to login in after the player plays to check stats suggesting a close relationship.
    An important thing to notice again: This claim is completely made up by Condor. I was very surprised to read this, all the weeks before in email conversation, this accusation wasn't mentioned once! So, for me it's evident that Condor already fakes information in order to get support for their scam scheme. I see that everybody else here cannot verify this, so I'm kind of trapped with this. Good chess move from Condor, I have to admit.
    If it was for me, Condor might provide a full list of all logins for both accounts with IP address here. But again, they would have no problem faking something like that!?

    A minor correction: I didn't sell my websites, the domains only. Software and users information etc. are still mine.
    I guess the motivation for Condor to scam me is also, they don't expect traffic for me in future, so they thought, stealing my share wouldn't hurt their future businesses.
    I told them that I'm working on other projects to be launched but they don't care.

    In general, after all this, I'm happy not to advertise them in future, that's for sure. I got a bit angry in this case but only after I got bombarded with bullshit for weeks and the simplest questions from my side did NOT get answered.
    Another theory I have, not so likely though: Is it possible that Condor ceases their operations soon, anyway? That would explain why they don't care for their future reputation and they are willing to take all money they can get in order to prevent bankruptcy!?

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    It's always a rogue sign for me when you hear of those programs who go weird when you bring a big player and suddenly they can't pay the commission.

    Unless they can prove any wrongdoing, then the only one in the wrong is them. For them to come on here and paste an angry email from an affiliate who has a reason to be angry, well that's just poor form from them and stains them even further for me.

    Condor Affiliates - PAY YOUR AFFILIATE THE MONEY YOU OWE THEM!

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  36. #19
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    First of all I l'd live to add that the site oddsoddsodds.com is live but livelivelive.com rediects to another site. I do understand that Condor wishes to know from where this affiliates traffic is coming from but not that specific players.
    The affiliates claims to have 55000 subscribers, that's enough proof if Condor has seen many hits from their admin or if they were informed about that before hand.
    No one can tell for sure from where a specific player registered from especially from those having several sites, subscribers and those who do guest posts or press releases with aff trackers in.

    Bottom line is, there isn't sufficient proof to argur that the affiliate did wrong. Has he referred only player or more depositors? Is the ip of this player the same to the aff? Does the players continues to play or has he requested a chargeback because that would be the some proven that the affiliates knows the player and would try to hurt you back by talking to his friend "the player that you claim he knows".

    If you earn revenue from this player then just pay the aff and lets move on.
    Its a shame to operator going this low for 4500 of commissions.
    Maybe the aff manager in place is not a business oriented guy by taking poor decision which hurt your reputatio more than doing good for saving 4500. I say so until you show sufficient proof against the affiliate not assumptions.
    Enough said

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  38. #20
    dirk20 is offline Public Member
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    Hi folks,
    I haven't heard anything yet from Condor, also the complaint on askgamblers.com wasn't answered yet.

    However, I wrote them an email with the offer below. Hope that's okay this way!?
    It's actually quite a disadvantage for me since these players might as well generate more profit in future. So, I will only hold this offer open till Friday.

    //
    Hello,
    I've got an offer for you that was basically suggested by "TheGooner" in the GPWA thread.
    I also apologize when I became very upset, I was simply offended by your wrong accusations.

    I'm willing to refrain from all future earnings by the customers that got referred to your business. Since I wouldn't advertise your brands anymore in future, we might as well terminate our relationship.
    The condition for all this from my side is that the currently open payments arrive on my banking account in this week, meaning July 7th latest. Please find the according invoice attached again.

    Please also note that my financial department requires me to pay income tax on all invoices written, no matter if paid or not. The only way out according to my tax consultant is that I can prove that I sought legal help against all such cases.

    Please answer either in the GPWA thread or via email whether or not you like to accept the offer.
    In general, I'm still a bit puzzled by you. Did you seriously think, I would simply say something like: "Oh, okay, you don't want to pay me my share. That's fine, no problem, keep it for you. I won't take any measures against it."
    \\

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