Problem gambling based demand to reinstate lost winnings of 75k

[universal4]

Did they state when this limit was put in place? (date)

Did they confirm how this limit was requested by you? (email, private message, chat )?

Did they confirm the reason this limit was requested by you?

You said you were informed of the limit placed, whi informed you?

Rick
Universal4

[DinoG]

We would like to point out that a number of responsible gaming settings are available in the casino’s software for every player to implement, change or remove at will, either directly through the cashier or by submitting a request via chat or email to our customer service department.

A player can choose to close, freeze or self-exclude from his/her account or set deposit, betting, loss or session timer limits on his/her gaming sessions. The player can also select the automated actions which are to follow such limits, eg automatic logout, self-exclusion with automatic or manual expiry, etc. It is not possible for self-exclusion settings to be changed or removed, neither by the player through the software, nor through a request to our customer service department. All other settings may be changed or removed at any time, provided there is no mention of a gambling problem, in which case a cooling off period is applied.

[-Shay-]

The player can also select the automated actions which are to follow such limits, eg automatic logout, self-exclusion with automatic or manual expiry, etc. It is not possible for self-exclusion settings to be changed or removed, neither by the player through the software, nor through a request to our customer service department. All other settings may be changed or removed at any time, provided there is no mention of a gambling problem, in which case a cooling off period is applied.

"Dino", unless I'm from "Mars" and thus misunderstanding the words marko speaks - the way I understood it is that the player should have been placed in a cooling off period due to his mentioning of a gambling problem. This issue has not yet been addressed and needs to be.

[DinoG]

The player’s first mention of a gambling problem occurred on 5 June 2013, on which date his account was locked and remains locked to the present day.

[marko6]

A player can choose to close, freeze or self-exclude from his/her account or set deposit, betting, loss or session timer limits on his/her gaming sessions. The player can also select the automated actions which are to follow such limits, eg automatic logout, self-exclusion with automatic or manual expiry, etc.

When I was playing at the Club Gold Casino, there were only three limit tools available:
- session timer
- monthly wagering limit
- monthly deposit limit.

There was no tool for self-exclusion. (I know that for sure, because I also played at another Playtech casino which had that tool. So I knew, what to look for.) That is why I had finally asked Dino, the casino manager, to lock my account, which he did in April.

Immediately after my big 50k win in October 2012 I remember having had a chat conversation with the casino staff regarding my account. I asked them to lock my account and keep on paying 5k monthly withdrawals. I was told in the chat that this is not possible, because any withdrawal requests above 5k will be returned to the account balance and I will have to log in every month to request a new 5k withdrawal. I had that information in my mind all the time in the following months, and I saw no way out. If all the chat files still exist, then, Dino, please search for this specific chat at the end of October/beginning of November 2012. Maybe I just got a wrong information from your chat operator. But since that chat I always believed that I need to keep my account open in order to cash out. And that is certainly not, how it should be!

So it is not true, that the player can "choose". I was never able to choose the option "irrevocable account lock until all funds have been paid". But that is, how limit tools should work.

Dino, I trust that you can see that I used all the limit tools that you offered. I not only limited my monthly wagering, I also set the session timer and the deposit limit many times. Please reconsider my case thoroughly and give me a refund. I took part in many of your quarterly tournaments. Please let a winner feel like a winner. You were friendly to me, when locking my account in April. Why did you allow my frozen account to be unlocked?

marko6

[marko6]

Dino,
one more question: What could I have done in October 2012 to make 100% sure, that I will get my 50k win paid? I asked your chat operator to lock my account and keep on paying me every month. But your chat operator said, that this is not possible. He made me believe that I need an unlocked account in order to get my winnings being paid.

Please find that specific chat, and please be fair!

marko6

[Roulette Zeitung]

Immediately after my big 50k win in October 2012 I remember having had a chat conversation with the casino staff regarding my account. I asked them to lock my account and keep on paying 5k monthly withdrawals. I was told in the chat that this is not possible, because any withdrawal requests above 5k will be returned to the account balance and I will have to log in every month to request a new 5k withdrawal.

"this is not possible, because any withdrawal requests above 5k will be returned to the account balance"

There is NOT written:

"this is not possible, because your account is locked"

No!

"this is not possible, because any withdrawal requests above 5k will be returned to the account balance"

Club Gold Casino have had the chance to make a reputable solution following their own rules in really important and rare situations like this:

Terms and Conditions of Play at Club Gold Casino
3.18
[...]For security purposes, the maximum amount which may be withdrawn from Your Player Account in any one calendar month shall be EUR 5,000 (including winnings) unless prior arrangements for a larger amount have been agreed with the Casino.

"unless prior arrangements for a larger amount have been agreed with the Casino"

Why this "prior arrangements for a larger amount" have not "been agreed" in this situation?

I asked your chat operator to lock my account and keep on paying me every month. But your chat operator said, that this is not possible. He made me believe that I need an unlocked account in order to get my winnings being paid.

Because the rules are tricky. A locked account is not the same as a closed account. We don't need to diskuss, that this casino don't care about fairness, and this is the reason why it would better you have closed your account:

Terms and Conditions of Play at Club Gold Casino
3.19
You may request the Casino to close Your Player Account at any time through the Website. Upon receiving such a request, the Casino shall transfer to You any amount standing to the credit of Your Player Account subject to any withdrawal fees and any conditions relating to winnings and/or bonuses, as shown on the Website and subject to the maximum monthly withdrawal limit shown above. The Casino shall have absolute discretion as to the mode of payment to be used in transferring Your funds to You upon the closure of Your Player Account.

"[...]request to close Your [...] Account an any time [...] Upon receiving such a request, the Casino shall transfer to You any amount standing to the credit of Your Player Account [...] to the maximum monthly withdrawal limit"

A ruputable chat operator will tell the player, that he must close his account (to receive the money in pieces of 5.000 Euro the next months).

Then the player get his money without an "prior arrangements for a larger amount" and without
the risk to lose it again because of a big and problem with discipline or more during gambling.

Leopold

[-Shay-]

Most reputable online casinos have provisions for what happens if someone hits a progressive. Additionally, most reputable online casinos do not hold return of personal stake towards your 5k limit. Still again, most reputable and licenced online casinos have a written policy in their terms regarding what to do if you have a gambling problem. The same type of reputable and licenced online casinos also have procedure for disputes - (read : what to do if you feel you the player have been wronged or feel you've been wronged/cheated).

Still going, most online casinos who are reputable and ethical do not have loopholes in their terms that allow them to freeroll against players (and vice versa).

Also, all this gloss on their homepage - certified by this, recommended by that, gamble responsibly - but not one link except to the brand new "licence" site.

Sure, one could argue that the terms are all there literally in black and white - but it becomes difficult for the average player when one says it and others take payment and swear by it in the name of money.

There's just so much wrong with this casino in my opinion. I truly do not understand how anyone can accept money to endorse them. In my opinion, the unfriendly player terms, numerous complaints, and a posture that does not put the player/customer first should be more than enough for ethical webmasters to say "no thanks".

Finally, if you read closely and carefully, this program is not now nor ever has been (to the best of my knowledge and in my opinion) in full compliance with the sponsor terms here.

[DinoG]

The fundamental issue here, which we must emphasise yet again, as this discussion is deliberately being steered away from it, is that a player has the possibility to set and remove restrictions on his account at any time as long as a gambling problem is not present. As soon as a player informs us that he has a gambling problem, then his account is locked for a minimum period of six months.

In the present case, the first time a gambling problem was ever mentioned to the casino was 5 June 2013, after the player had already withdrawn a large portion of his winnings and lost the rest. His account was locked on the same day and continues to remain locked. In the six month period between his win and 5 June 2013 the player was free to set and remove any betting or deposit restrictions on his account, which he actually did. Should he have felt that he was facing a gambling problem at any time during these six months, all he had to do was inform the casino about it, in which case his account would have been locked and his remaining winnings would have been saved.

Admitting a gambling problem with the genuine intention of quitting gambling is a good thing but using this as an excuse after the fact in the hope of reversing losses is just not acceptable, especially when the player resorts to falsifying evidence to support his case. What is to stop every player doing so after losing at the casino?

[-Shay-]

The fundamental issue here, which we must emphasise yet again, as this discussion is deliberately being steered away from it, is that a player has the possibility to set and remove restrictions on his account at any time as long as a gambling problem is not present. As soon as a player informs us that he has a gambling problem, then his account is locked for a minimum period of six months.

"Dino" - there's a few fundamental issues here. Let me spell them out for you so that there is no perception of steering away.

1. Club Gold Casino was not in compliance with licencing terms.

2. The player's claim was that there WAS in fact mention of gambling problem prior to the date you're referencing. The player was also led to believe that he had to keep his account open in order to collect by way of your unfriendly payout terms. I understand that he has not yet "proven" such things - but rest assured that while the evidence has not turned up yet, it does not mean Club Gold is not guilty of that claim. Has ALL chat logs throughout the entire player's history been turned over? Has Playtech verified such things?

3. Regarding problem gamblers, I agree with your last paragraph ending with "a good thing" (note - again, I do not condone falsification of evidence or making false claims). However, the Club Gold Casino website does not seem to line up with our position on problem gamblers. Where are the problem gambling resources? Where is the gambler education links? Are such things not required by the nature of the Curacao licence AND as terms of sponsorship here?

With the above in mind, we are in fact "on track" here. It is Club Gold Casino and their terms and practices that are from "Mars". Club Gold Casino needs to get their house in order.

[marko6]

Should he have felt that he was facing a gambling problem at any time during these six months, all he had to do was inform the casino about it, in which case his account would have been locked and his remaining winnings would have been saved.

Dino, I did make several requests by chat and email, in which I asked the casino to lock my account and continue cashing out my winnings. But I was told by your own staff, that this is not possible, because any withdrawal amount exceeding 5k will be returned to my balance. I was told that I have to log in every month to manually request a new 5k withdrawal.

And now I realize, that by logging in again and again I was seduced to continue playing until I lost most of it.

marko6

[-Shay-]

Marko, I sent you a message via PM - please check.

Cheers

[marko6]

Should he have felt that he was facing a gambling problem at any time during these six months, all he had to do was inform the casino about it, in which case his account would have been locked and his remaining winnings would have been saved.

Dino, don't you understand? I did tell your chat operators many, many times that I wish my account to be closed with my winnings still being paid. I was informed by your own staff that this is not possible. I was simply afraid that I would get no money at all, if I admit my gambling problem too early. Because then you would have closed my account and (according to that chat) never paid me. Can you imagine that? I was AFRAID!

It is the first time in my life that I hit such a big win. But with so many obstacles winning is no fun. Imagine I had won that sum in a land based casino. No land-based casino would require me to come back every month to request a new 5k withdrawal!

marko6

[Roulette Zeitung]

I asked them to lock my account and keep on paying 5k monthly withdrawals.

I did tell your chat operators many, many times that I wish my account to be closed with my winnings still being paid.

Lock or close?

This is a big difference in this casino: https://www.gpwa.org/forum/problem-g...tml#post733202

Leopold

[thebookiesoffers]

FFS, this is just going round in circles now. ALL chat records will be saved by the casino so Im guessing Playtech as well. Get in touch with Playtech, on the telephone, explain what has happened and get the findings on here.

[marko6]

Since there is no movement, I would like to take the opportunity to summarize my complaint:

- I won 50k in October 2012 at a slot game.
- I asked the casino to close my account and keep on paying 5k withdrawals per month.
- The casino refused to do so. They told me that I need to manually submit a new 5k withdrawal every month.
- Because of that information I feared that the casino would not pay out my 50k win, if I ask for a self-exclusion too early.
- So I had to log in again every month to request a new withdrawal, and of course, that seduced me to keep on playing.
- In February or March (I only remember the approximate time frame) I won 20k with a Royal Flush at Jacks or Better.
- After that day I was not allowed to play Video Poker anymore. For more than 60 days I always received a pop-up message saying that the game is "under maintenance". A few days later the same pop-up appeared when opening any table game. The only games I was able to play were slots. Thus the casino somehow forced me into playing slots. In May I was able to overcome that situation by installing the Greek version of the casino software. I believe that the casino disabled me to play table games on purpose.
- Many times I had informed the casino about my wish that my account shall be locked with my funds being paid. That is all what admitting a gambling problem is about!!! Finally, in April, Dino agreed. However, at that time I had already lost approximately 25k from my highest balance.
- The casino software did not offer a self-exclusion tool at the time when I played.
- The casino did offer wagering limits, deposits limits, and session timers. I had set the monthly wagering limit to 1 Euro, but that limit was removed on the very same day by the casino, when my account was unlocked on May 19th.

I strongly believe that the casino was not fair to me. I already apologized for the email that I had faked. I did that only because I was in such a weak situation having deleted all proofs on my side. But, I do hope that those proofs still exist at the casino and at Playtech. I kindly ask the casino AND the GPWA staff to read all saved chats and emails carefully to uncover the whole truth. And I kindly ask the casino again to admit that I was not treated correctly.

Addendum: When chat and emails files confirm that I am telling the truth - and I am sure they will - and Club Gold has not agreed before, then I ask Club Gold to pay the highest fine: paying the balance (approximately 100k) which I had, before I was banned from playing table games. Moreover, I ask that amount to be paid in one transaction and not in 5k amounts once a month. There is just too much unethical behaviour in a single case.

marko6

[-Shay-]

Get in touch with Playtech, on the telephone, explain what has happened and get the findings on here.

This exactly!

[thebookiesoffers]

try this number for Playtech - +44 1624-645999

[marko6]

Admitting a gambling problem with the genuine intention of quitting gambling is a good thing but using this as an excuse after the fact in the hope of reversing losses is just not acceptable, especially when the player resorts to falsifying evidence to support his case. What is to stop every player doing so after losing at the casino?

The answer is simple: Once a player asks for an account closure, the account should be closed and all remaining funds paid. I had asked for an account closure several times. After my 50k win, however, I was informed by the casino chat operator that I need to keep my account open in order to be able to request a new 5k withdrawal every month.

I just cannot believe that "every player" (Dino's words) asks for an account closure when he hits a big win. I did that. And it was not honoured!

Also, I wish to repeat the following thought: Imagine I had won that sum in a land-based casino. No land-based casino would require me to come back every month to request a new 5k withdrawal!

marko6

[Roulette Zeitung]

I had asked for an account closure several times. After my 50k win, however, I was informed by the casino chat operator that I need to keep my account open in order to be able to request a new 5k withdrawal every month.

This was a barefaced lie:

Terms and Conditions of Play at Club Gold Casino
3.19
You may request the Casino to close Your Player Account at any time through the Website. Upon receiving such a request, the Casino shall transfer to You any amount standing to the credit of Your Player Account subject to any withdrawal fees and any conditions relating to winnings and/or bonuses, as shown on the Website and subject to the maximum monthly withdrawal limit shown above. The Casino shall have absolute discretion as to the mode of payment to be used in transferring Your funds to You upon the closure of Your Player Account.

"[...]request to close Your [...] Account an any time [...] Upon receiving such a request, the Casino shall transfer to You any amount standing to the credit of Your Player Account [...] to the maximum monthly withdrawal limit"

Proof & sources:

In English ===> http://web.archive.org/web/201208312...ms-conditions/

In German ===> http://www.clubgoldcasino.com/de/all...tsbedingungen/

German rule (It's the same):

Allgemeine Geschäftsbedingungen für das Spielen bei Club Gold Casino
3.19.
Sie haben jederzeit das Recht, das Casino über die Webseite zur Schließung Ihres Spielerkontos aufzufordern. Nach Erhalt einer solchen Anfrage überweist Ihnen das Casino jegliches auf Ihrem Spielerkonto befindliches Guthaben. Dies geschieht unter Berücksichtigung eventuell anfallender Auszahlungsgebühren und jeglicher auf der Webseite aufgeführten Bedingungen, die bezüglich Ihrer Gewinne und/oder Bonusse gelten, sowie unter Berücksichtigung des genannten maximalen monatlichen Auszahlungsbetrags. Die Auswahl der Auszahlungsmethode, die für die Gutschrift Ihres Guthabens nach Schließung Ihres Spielerkontos genutzt wird, liegt im alleinigen Ermessen des Casinos.

And this situation is one more example why i forced this casino to publish full German rules!
After translating the rules no excuses exist anylonger for "mistakes", "misunderstandings" or "misinterpretations".

You have to be awake at all times and be permanently thinking one step ahead.

Leopold