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  1. #1
    RedOne is offline New Member
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    Default Real money online rummy is getting huge (really)

    I tried browsing the forum, but didn't see lot of discussion about the current state of online rummy, so below is a summary of what I have recently found out about online rummy (my apologizes for those who find it long and boring, but this was all new to me even though I follow the gambling industry a bit), maybe we can get some discussion regarding rummy going on?:

    Real money online rummy getting big has been a possibility for a long time, but the fact that the boom started in India might be slightly surprising to many people.

    Indian ace2three has at the moment over 2.7 million registered players and sites like classicrummy, khelplayrummy & rummycircle also have impressive numbers of registered and active players. Some kind of indicator of how big the industry is getting is the fact that at the moment "ace2three" and "rummycircle" both get slightly over 200,000 global exact match google searches per month while "partypoker" and "party poker" together get slightly under 100,000.

    But obviously the best way to understand (and believe) how big the industry is getting is logging into, for an example, one of those sites mentioned earlier

    It is worth noticing that even though these sites are currently aimed to the Indian market they operate in English and with .com -domain, which seems smart considering that English is one of the two official languages of India, and also because running English language site obviously makes it easier to expand into other countries.

    The games running on these sites, when compared to the global online poker games, are quite small (the biggest ones running appear to equate to around 0.5/1€ NL / PL poker), but with over 1.2 billion inhabitants (more than USA, Germany, Russia, Canada, UK, Brazil, France, Italy and Spain together!), rapidly growing economy and major portion of the population still living without internet access, the potential is absolutely massive in India.

    Here is an extract from the recently published "The stage is set: FICCI-KPMG Indian Media and Entertainment Industry Report 2014" which sheds some light on the growth of the gaming industry in India: The gaming industry is gaining traction at a steady rate in India. The growth is driven by a rising younger population, higher disposable incomes, introduction of new gaming genres, and the increasing number of smartphone and tablet users. The proliferation of gaming developers and publishers has also contributed to the growth of the gaming industry. The gaming industry in India was estimated at about INR 19.2 billion in 2013 and is poised for continuous growth. However, the year gone by witnessed flat volume growth in the console segment specifically and this impacted the overall industry growth rate. Industry players are optimistic about 2014. The industry is expected to grow at a CAGR of 16 per cent and touch INR 40.6 billion by the end of 2018.

    As far as I understand the part regarding gaming focuses more on other types of gaming than real money rummy, but the underlying factors contributing to the growth should apply to the real money rummy type of gaming as well. The full report can be found at least from here: winationz.com/uploads/1/8/0/0/18007653/ficci-frames-2014-the-stage-is-set.pdf The extract is from the page 121.

    Unlike other forms of gambling online rummy games played for real money appear to be legal in India (though many sites don't accept players from 2 states, which together make up about 5% of the country's population. This obviously (if true) means that there are lot less legal ways in which players can gamble online, which should benefit the sites offering real money rummy. The legality appears to be result of the massive skill element involved in the game.

    My understanding of the legal situation is based on what I have read from operator websites and from other sources as well. Though there were some news from 2012 and 2013 that seemed to indicate that the legal situation is not 100% clear. This few months old news piece gives a decent summary of the situation: hglaws.in/2014/01/karnataka-high-court-holds-rummy-for-stakes-to-be-legal-quashes-gambling-charges/

    When it comes to the affiliate side of things, it appears that only some of the sites offer affiliate programs. Out of general interest I briefly chatted with classicrummy's (a site that has a publicly advertised affiliate program) support and they mentioned that they accept affiliates also from outside India.

    So what are your thoughts regarding the rummy industry? The average player value is probably at the moment quite (maybe even very when compared European online poker site) low, but the facts that we are talking about India and likely legal gambling would seem like something that would make lot of companies and affiliates excited when thinking about the long term.

    Despite of that so far the only big and established online gambling company that seems to have made a move in the rummy business is Winner.com, as they appear to have acquired RummyRoyal.

    Obviously rummy might become big in other countries as well, and it having become big in India at the very least shouldn't hurt the chances of that happening.

    P.S. I don't have anything to do with the webpages mentioned above nor I'm involved in the rummy industry. But I own couple unused rummy domains.

  2. #2
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    Here are two recent discussions which can easily be found using the SEARCH function.
    https://www.gpwa.org/forum/why-rummy...ng-213769.html

    I have found conversions to be more difficult in most skill gaming sectors and player loyalty to not be very high, whereas bingo and poker seems to draw very loyal players.

    Rick
    Universal4

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    Thanks for the reply, I can't access the 2nd thread (I sent a request to get the private membership, but not sure if and when it will be approved as I'm not actively involved in the affiliate stuff anymore). And the first one while about rummy, was maybe from slightly different angle than from where I was approaching the subject

    I have found conversions to be more difficult in most skill gaming sectors and player loyalty to not be very high, whereas bingo and poker seems to draw very loyal players.
    Is this mainly on European / American market? I guess it would make sense that people who are more into the gambling side would tend to be more loyal when playing games with higher gambling factor. The Indian market seems interesting because the players really only have the one legal game to play.
    Last edited by RedOne; 29 April 2014 at 2:56 pm.

  5. #4
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    Sorry about that, I missed that it was a private thread or I would not have posted the link.

    We have discussed rummy as well as other types of skill games here in the past.

    I agree as to some of the reasons why gamblers are a little more loyal. I think that holds true no matter what country they are in.

    I feel that the skill games like backgammon etc, as well as rummy, euchre, spades and other such games tend to draw the more casual player so converting them to real money games has always just seemed a little more difficult.

    Some operators have quite a few skill type and card agme type games to offer players. Playtech comes to mind as they have a series that they more or less refer to as vegas games. Some others have added a few as well.

    I do think that the market for them is large.

    Rick
    Universal4

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    Quote Originally Posted by RedOne View Post
    So what are your thoughts regarding the rummy industry? The average player value is probably at the moment quite (maybe even very when compared European online poker site) low, but the facts that we are talking about India and likely legal gambling would seem like something that would make lot of companies and affiliates excited when thinking about the long term.
    Yep - my thoughts are that rummy earnings are very low.

    Like Backgammon, chess and other skill games there is always a lot of interest in the game itself - but that does not translate to gambling as the skill levels are strong meaning that a good player will often beat a weaker player. That lack of random result makes the gamble less fun for the loser. Skill based games do not make great gambles for the average player.

    India has a huge population - but low earnings and low penetration of online payment methods will always be a limiting factor.

    Additionally, rummy is NOT the only gambling option for Indian citizens - I've had a few players at online casinos including one "high roller" at a "live casino". I'm not aware of ANY program that has specifically banned players from India - despite any laws in India prohibiting online play.

    Finally, taking about markets and value and growth is always very, very speculative. It's usually done by a group with an interest in talking the upside with very little basis for extrapolation. The figure of 19.2 billion INR sound huge - until you realise it is talking about gaming (and consoles) and do the conversion and realise that's just 380 million dollars.

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    Thanks for the detailed answer.
    What you are saying makes lot of sense regarding why the conversion rates and average player values are not great.

    I think that there is something to be said about the fact that with relatively softer competition among operators and affiliates than (for an example) in the poker business the player values don't have to be big for making decent money as it appears to be much easier to generate signups. But yeah it is certainly difficult to foresee a rummy site pulling pokerstars-esque revenue in the near future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RedOne View Post
    I think that there is something to be said about the fact that with relatively softer competition among operators and affiliates than (for an example) in the poker business the player values don't have to be big for making decent money as it appears to be much easier to generate signups.
    Well - is any affiliate making decent money? Let's find out

    Is there any affiliate out there promoting rummy?
    Are you making $1,000+ per month at any affiliate program?

    Calling all existing rummy affiliates (not AM or affiliate programs) to weigh in with their view of the rummy market.

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    Thanks for the reply, but saying that you have made X amount of money in X amount of time is not really worth much without knowing the effort put into promoting the game. If you look at any rummy keyword or search phrase getting decent search volume the top results appear to be made up entirely of actual sites offering the games (either real money or fun money) and of information sites.

    Also honestly, if someone is printing money or even doing decent amount of money it is much less likely that they are going to reveal it on public forum than that they are not going to reveal it on public forum.

    However these Indian companies appear to employ 50-200 people / big rummy site and even taking into account the much lower wages compared to Europe, these companies have to be bringing in some OK revenue to keep that many people on payroll.

    I don't want to become off as aggressive or defensive regarding the potential or the current state of the rummy industry, I have very little currently riding on the future or current status of the industry. My interest is mainly in trying to figure out what type of opportunity entering the industry might represent to established gaming companies and their bottom line over the long term.
    Last edited by RedOne; 30 April 2014 at 6:20 am.

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    I'm in the gaming affiliate business for almost 14 years and I promote Rummy brands, never made a single $1 from Rummy (or Gin Rummy).

    I promote Rummy Royal with dozens of reviews and they gets lots of traffic but they never convert to real players, only signups and clicks for years already ... what can I say, maybe this type of audience is not relevant to
    my visitors or maybe Rummy is not that profitable... I can't really tell based on my experience and data.

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    Just because a few sites targeting the Indian market are employing people does not prove the market is as big as you are guessing. Don't forget in some depressed economies the amount of revenue needed to make a site profitable for them may be fairly easy to acheive with next to nothing coming from affiliates.

    If in fact you decide to move into that market, keep us advised as to how it goes.

    We have discussed rummy and other skill games here many times over the years, and I tend to trust a cross section of the results that others have gotten both in the past and recent statements that the market is not near as profitable as some would think.

    I do think that skill gaming sections on sites are decent add-ons and I also think that some games are potential gateway type of games that could help funnel players toward other games.

    Rick
    Universal4

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    Quote Originally Posted by RedOne View Post
    My interest is mainly in trying to figure out what type of opportunity entering the industry might represent to established gaming companies and their bottom line over the long term.
    Is it? Or have you already made your mind up that it's the next great thing? Are you "trying to figure it out" or attempting to "talk it up"?

    As you have seen from the replies - two experienced affiliates have been promoting rummy for 5+ years and have made very little revenue from it. These are experienced affiliates that understand the market and are successful in other gambling channels.

    I have not tried to promote Rummy - but I did promote Backgammon for a couple of years and achieved several hundred signups over several programs. There was/is a lot of interest in backgammon, but that interest never really translated in a willingness by players to spend money as wagers on the games. OVer two years we made less than $100 in total.

    Skill games will attract players in large numbers - either standalone or attached to facebook - but those players are just not likely to spend much money on wagering on their games. That's my opinion backed up by my own experience of some skill games and also a simple question to successful affiliates here.

    If affiliate members here cannot make money on rummy as affiliates - then there is not a lot of money to be made.

    Good luck with your internet venture.

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    I even have a website dedicated to Rummy. - http://www.houseofrummy.com - Granted I rarely update it or add to it, but this is more than likely due to the fact that it has been online for a good 6 or more years and I have never made a cent on it - even in the early days when it held reasonable positions in the search engines.

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    I obviously have no idea

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    Yes My friend, In the world of entertainment, Rummy considered as most likable and favourite game for the players. By the honourable Supreme Court of India declared Rummy, a skill based game as playing rummy requires lots of strategic and decision-making skills. Undoubtedly, Rummy is the most entertaining game, but for enhancing the experience of playing, one should learn the major Rules of Rummy.

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    India is the only country that understand that Rummy (same as poker) is indeed a game of skill, I home more countries will figure this out !

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    I still have my little Rummy site plodding along and still made nothing to write home about BUT I have seen a slight improvement over the last few months.... In June I got 4 New Depositors and made the huge sum of $6.11, July made $97.16 and in August made $88.64... I guess it covers the renewal fees...

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    Quote Originally Posted by topboss View Post
    I still have my little Rummy site plodding along and still made nothing to write home about BUT I have seen a slight improvement over the last few months.... In June I got 4 New Depositors and made the huge sum of $6.11, July made $97.16 and in August made $88.64... I guess it covers the renewal fees...
    Can you share which Rummy brand you promote ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ocreditor View Post
    Can you share which Rummy brand you promote ?
    Sure - Only Rummy Royal...it is the only Rummy site I know of, but must admit I haven't really researched them to find others

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    Quote Originally Posted by topboss View Post
    Sure - Only Rummy Royal...it is the only Rummy site I know of, but must admit I haven't really researched them to find others
    Really, this is interesting, they didn't performed well with OCR traffic and I see they are with new site design and mobile supported too,
    I believe they are better now.

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