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  1. #161
    colin3005 is offline Private Member
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    Well Matt's stopped replying to me, my last email was read by him last week and reply as yet, while i appreciate he may be busy, if he had the time to read it on the 9th, I'm sure he has had time to reply now, 6 days later.

    I do hope some advice is forthcoming from someone with legal knowledge in contract law, as I cannot see how this isn't misrepresentation or frustrating the contract.

  2. #162
    philrush is offline Private Member
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    I think the best hope is that Sky have a rethink at some point in the future. If these changes alter the amount of new players/income they are generating from affiliates they may see this as a business mistake. If this is the case they may reverse or water down these terms.

  3. #163
    ds1999 is offline Private Member
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    I spoke to my mate again, he's had a look at the terms but can't offer any formal advice. Not that he's not willing, just that he wouldn't want to give an answer that's not 100% correct, and he couldn't be sure he could do that.

    He said it would need a lawyer with the specific knowledge to look at it, but warned that could run into a few grand just to understand the situation, let alone take it further.

  4. #164
    RacingJim is offline Public Member
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    Showed it my lawyer I've been working with as well, as above he wasn't really interested as he's not a contract lawyer and I agree it's gona take a contract lawyer at least a couple of hours to read those T&Cs and even give a brief opinion on it. Of course that's what Skybet are hoping for, that we don't follow it through and don't have the funds to take them on.

  5. #165
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    No posts here for a week?
    So everyone's just given up on it and let yet another affiliate program just screw 100's of affiliates and get away scot free.

    Oh well... who cares eh? It's only our livelihood at stake - nothing important.

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  7. #166
    justbookies is offline Private Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by KasinoKing View Post
    No posts here for a week?
    So everyone's just given up on it and let yet another affiliate program just screw 100's of affiliates and get away scot free.

    Oh well... who cares eh? It's only our livelihood at stake - nothing important.

    KK
    I think the lesson is, just fight your own individual battles. All talk, no action as usual.

    Interestingly I saw a contract lawyer on TV only a day or so ago (talking about a different business) and he said when a contract has clauses that are so "one-sided as to be unfair" then the courts will just "put a red pen through them."

  8. #167
    thebookiesoffers is offline Former Member
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    yep, pledged a grand like justbookies done and now everyone has gone quiet

  9. #168
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    Could be the Berlin conference, where ppl might try to talk things over in person.
    Last edited by xecutable; 24 October 2015 at 1:24 pm.
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  10. #169
    Triple7 is offline Private Member
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    Perhaps most people are at BAC now ?

  11. #170
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    The T&Cs as written allow the affiliate program to do anything - including allowing either party to terminate the contract for any reason with one months notice. Of course it's entirely possible that writing wide ranging terms like that IS illegal - but you are not going to get a clear cut opinion or simple back down from the billion pound operation.

    I'm not sure whether SkyBet can legally change pay rates on previously acquired customers, but like most businesses they DO have a choice as to who they work with and what rates they pay going forward, so even a win in court could easily turn into a Pyrrhic victory with affiliates simply having the relationship terminated.

    The case is going to run to tens of thousands of pounds if you want to see this through in court - and I don't know too many affiliates that make anything like that sort of money from the skybet operation. They are a saturated property with big acquisition through mass advertising and only worth a couple of hundred pounds a month to us at best (frequently less).

    Of course I would like to get a UK court ruling on whether the standard affiliate terms of "the program can do anything they like and the affiliates only option is to terminate the contract" but it's not going to be cheap to do so - and the typical gaming affiliate share of 25-35% is a generous share compared to other affiliate industries where 5-10% is much more standard.

    I'm not sure that a court will find a 5% default rate unreasonable (even if I don't want to work for that rate)

    Honestly? Skybet are too UK centric for us - they don't convert for our global readership. We should have dropped them 12 months ago as poor performing, and in this specific case it's just easier to wash our hands of them than go through the stress and cost of a court case with little positive outcome.

    I would still consider supporting an action, even perhaps with some financial backing - but I just don't see a positive outcome where the program has outright said we want to pay 5% going forward.

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  13. #171
    justbookies is offline Private Member
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    You can't promise lifetime at say 25% and then change that to 5%. Reason: The 'we can do anything' clause that they did it under is a total load of cobblers legally and is a certainty to be proven so if it ever got into a court room.

    You may be right about the costs, to be honest I have always represented myself relying on legal advice in advance of that and I did that one time against a huge international company (different industry entirely) and they backed down, so I am not so negative about going to court. Nothing will change in this industry until it happens - the ****-taking and theft will continue. Though I guess the costs mount when you don't represent yourself.

    I can only speak for myself - and I haven't heard anyone else say this - but I find SkyBet continues to convert better than almost anyone I promote to the UK market, though that fact is irrelevant in the context of this thread.

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  15. #172
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    I have to leave it to the big shots here who are getting paid the big bucks to afford the cost of not giving up on this. Been four years since I made anything at this and over two years since a sign-up so all I can do is complain as I'm sure many more are in that same position.

  16. #173
    thebookiesoffers is offline Former Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by justbookies View Post
    but I find SkyBet continues to convert better than almost anyone I promote to the UK market
    not only do they convert well their retention is very good, very solid product before all this bollocks

  17. #174
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    You two sound like you have much more reason to try and work something out then - surely you'd expect to get 5+ new depositors each month if they convert well / very well ?

    But SkyBet were less than one half of 1% of our revenue, we wouldn't manage that 5+ new monthly rate on a consistent basis with them - so we have closed the SkyBet account - and cleared them off the site as not being a serious affiliate partner for global traffic.

  18. #175
    justbookies is offline Private Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGooner View Post
    You two sound like you have much more reason to try and work something out then - surely you'd expect to get 5+ new depositors each month if they convert well / very well ?
    Yes, but forcibly tied to a firm that has shown itself to be dishonest because cant give up on years of referred players. So what you are doing makes total sense and I would do the same if there wasn't much to walk away from.

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  20. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by justbookies View Post
    Yes, but forcibly tied to a firm that has shown itself to be dishonest because cant give up on years of referred players. So what you are doing makes total sense and I would do the same if there wasn't much to walk away from.
    So why don't you try and negotiate something with them, like a CPA on new players and keep the Rev Share on the existing. Then when the revenue on the rev share players has wound down you can take stock and decide what to do. This would at least strengthen your position going forward. To do nothing would not make good sense.
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  21. #177
    colin3005 is offline Private Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGooner View Post
    Of course I would like to get a UK court ruling on whether the standard affiliate terms of "the program can do anything they like and the affiliates only option is to terminate the contract" but it's not going to be cheap to do so - and the typical gaming affiliate share of 25-35% is a generous share compared to other affiliate industries where 5-10% is much more standard.

    I'm not sure that a court will find a 5% default rate unreasonable (even if I don't want to work for that rate)
    It wouldn't be a good move to argue that in court from skybets point of view.
    Yes 5-10% is normal for other industries, however if someone buys a 1000 tv from John Lewis and I get 50, I don't lose that if another customer 'wins' and the 5% is on the whole order value, not the profit they make.
    25% of profit, minus fees and bonuses is probably less than 5-10% of all sales on a retail site.

  22. #178
    thebookiesoffers is offline Former Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGooner View Post
    You two sound like you have much more reason to try and work something out then - surely you'd expect to get 5+ new depositors each month if they convert well / very well ?

    But SkyBet were less than one half of 1% of our revenue, we wouldn't manage that 5+ new monthly rate on a consistent basis with them - so we have closed the SkyBet account - and cleared them off the site as not being a serious affiliate partner for global traffic.
    I usually send them 30+ players a month, I've tried to work something out with them but they aint having it. my trouble is now if something happens and I cant hit the target they get to keep over 3300 accounts while i get bummed

  23. #179
    RacingJim is offline Public Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by justbookies View Post
    I can only speak for myself - and I haven't heard anyone else say this - but I find SkyBet continues to convert better than almost anyone I promote to the UK market, though that fact is irrelevant in the context of this thread.
    Wow, that is definitely NOT something I expected to hear. They are junk for me, one of my worst converting bookies, below pretty much everyone I work with for conversions, and equally important, customer value.

  24. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by colin3005 View Post
    It wouldn't be a good move to argue that in court from skybets point of view.

    25% of profit, minus fees and bonuses is probably less than 5-10% of all sales on a retail site.
    This is a little of topic - but any thought that gaming affiliate deals are not lucrative and high marks in the industry is wrong.

    Retail sales have cost of goods, shipping and a myriad of costs.
    And 5% of sales commission is just 5% of total cost - it's identifiable and manageable - and not the biggest cost item in the business.

    Having worked through related items like book sales, ticket sales, sporting goods sales, travel sales etc, I can comfortably say that the gaming area is far more rewarding - both in overall volume and also profit share.

    With sliding scales from 25% to 50% of net profits (after deductions) - affiliates take in between 20-35% of total deposits and about half the profit. Gaming affiliation is the most lucrative affiliate market by a LONG WAY.

    BACK ON TOPIC

    Of course the reason for this is that it's a globally competitive market with low barriers for entry for a new gambling site. Commissions need to be attractive to retain affiliates ... as SKYBET will see as they lose significant market share with a 5% base rate.

    SKYBET may believe that traditional broadcast activity and advertising is a more cost effective medium for obtaining customers, but as the way the internet generation consumes media continues to fragment and change I think that SKYBETs strategy of broadcast focus is flawed.

    Of course, on the flipside, if SKYBET can retain several high profile affiliates, and force them to push their product heavily in order to meet monthly quotas and get a fair rate, then perhaps their approach of "what have you done for me lately?" might actually pay dividends?
    Last edited by TheGooner; 25 October 2015 at 6:07 pm.

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