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  1. #21
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    Hi greg,

    I wont hide the fact that of any online casino software MG is the one that I used to play. It's the one I trusted the most.

    However with that said and taking into account that in the last 18 months I've played something close to 3.5 - 4million play through, that being all on a main group of slots:

    ladies night & spring break (amounted to around 85% of that play through)
    twin samurai & thunderstruck (the remaining 15%)

    I've noticed some weird results.

    For instance, the scatters... pre 12 months I could say without doubt that I'd get one of these (all 5 scatters) in any given month. I've actually had 3 sets of them in one session.

    Since October of 2006 I've not had one set of 5 scatters (on ladies night, thunderstruck or spring break). Now some may say that's just gambling....

    However I say that's suspect when you take into account the sheer number of spins.

    I'm not the only player who has noticed this.

    Anything that is electronically operated can be manipulated. There are many ways to bypass the true out come of an RNG, whether this is for one player or a group of players.

    We all accept (or are at least are aware) that land based casino adjust their slots % pay-outs.

    What bothers me though is that this type of information is frowned upon at MG. It's definitely challenged which are clearly evident in the lame ass retorts and generic responses received from MG casinos when put to the question of manipulation of their slots % pay-outs.

    It's this transparency that is missing in the industry.

    Maybe a reason why eCogra will not entertain the notion of random testing.

    I'd be interested (very) in your findings. I'd also be interested to know what type of model you have used to arrive at your findings.



    Cheers



    Dave
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  2. #22
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    Nothing new it is called “gaping” the processor. How problematic gapping truly is I guess we will never know. Radom testing is a must if online casinos would like to increase their transparency and trustworthiness.

    pgaming/

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by pgaming View Post
    Nothing new it is called “gaping” the processor.
    I've tried to find out more about this so called process but I can't find anything on google.

    Care to explain gaping, its use(s) and how it's implemented?



    Cheers



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  4. #24
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    This discussion is going totally off track.
    "Gapping" has nothing to do with what happened at Absolute.

    FYI - Someone inside Absolute hacked the system and exploited a vulnerability in the software which enabled the user of a superuser account to view all the hole cards at a table during a high stakes tournament.

    Absolute has admitted to this. Now they are spinning the story to control the fallout. Blaming first, an employee (geek), then a consultant.

    The problem is, there is evidence leading to Scott Tom (former Absolute CEO) and A.J. Green (former Absolute executive).

    The saga is far from over. For more info, check my forum or go to twoplustwo or pocketfives.
    Terry - The Pokerkeep
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  6. #25
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    The word “gaping” has several meanings. But in the context of RNG Processors it sometimes means the processor has been compromised, cloned or manipulated in some way. It would involve taking the original processor out cloning it then programming the clone to pay out more or less. Now the operator has the original and a clone. When it comes time for an independent audit the original is used and all checks out fine.

    This is very touchy subject to discuss publicly. But it works something like this.

    1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8, win 10,11,12,13,win, 15 etc… two wins out of 15 tries

    A reprogrammed cloned RNG Gap processor

    1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, No win out of 15 tries

    This can also work in the opposite way as well.

    Take this for what it’s worth. Whether or not this truly happens has yet to proven. But in theory this would be 100% plausible. The Online Gambling Industry for the most part is unregulated making this scenario all the more likely.

    I am not implying this had anything to with Absolute. That would involve NOT A HACK but the proper word A CRACK.

    Just trying to answer Dave's question to the best of my ability. What happenned to Absolute I leave up to you to figure out.

    pgaming/
    Last edited by pgaming; 21 October 2007 at 5:29 pm. Reason: adding to post

  7. #26
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    Thanks pgaming
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  8. #27
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    Default gambling911 speculation

    Gambling911 has posted a story with more speculation as to who was involved in this scandal ... they point the finger at AJ Green, who "had previously been employed as a manager at Nine.com and as a former Vice President of Operations at Absolute Poker."

    http://www.gambling911.com/Absolute-Poker-Scandal-102207.html

    As always, interesting tidbits here, including that the scheme was developed to help fund a vicious cocaine habit.

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  10. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by thepokerkeep View Post
    This discussion is going totally off track.
    "Gapping" has nothing to do with what happened at Absolute.

    FYI - Someone inside Absolute hacked the system and exploited a vulnerability in the software which enabled the user of a superuser account to view all the hole cards at a table during a high stakes tournament.

    Absolute has admitted to this. Now they are spinning the story to control the fallout. Blaming first, an employee (geek), then a consultant.

    The problem is, there is evidence leading to Scott Tom (former Absolute CEO) and A.J. Green (former Absolute executive).

    The saga is far from over. For more info, check my forum or go to twoplustwo or pocketfives.
    thepokerkeep,


    I apologize for marginalizing your post. After spending a greater part of the day taking a closer look it soon became apparent the seriousness of the issue. I have seen something similar to this happening at Full Tilt a few years back.


    Plus the work and dedication you have demonstrated speaks volumes. I read everything I possible could.
    So I hope no offence taken. I will be following this thread with great interest.


    On the surface it would appear this would have to be coordinated effort internally and externally. But for now I would put my dollars Tom and A.J for now.


    Please by all means keep us informed.



    pgaming/
    Last edited by pgaming; 22 October 2007 at 8:43 am.

  11. #29
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    Here are the two official statements from Absolute:

    From Friday, Oct. 19:

    Dear valued player,

    Absolute Poker has identified an internal security breach that compromised our systems for a limited period of time. The cause of the breach has been determined and completely resolved. In addition, all necessary resources, both internal and external, have been engaged to ensure this does not happen again. Our investigation is not fully concluded, and we wish to thank the extended poker community for any and all assistance related to the matter.

    Game integrity has always and continues to be of the utmost importance at Absolute Poker. The Management of Absolute Poker is appalled by these findings, and is committed to our players and to the integrity of our site and the online poker industry.

    All players affected by the security breach will be identified during the audit process that has been initiated and all funds, including interest, will be returned. Absolute Poker would like to apologize for the recent events and is committed to diligently working with outside security firms, auditing firms, the extended poker community and the Kahnawake Gaming Commission to ensure the situation is entirely resolved.

    A comprehensive statement will be forthcoming shortly providing more details of the situation.
    From Sunday, Oct. 21:

    Dear AP Player:

    I am the former Grand Chief of the Mohawk Territory of Kahnawake and the owner of Tokwiro Enterprises ENRG, which holds a 100% interest in Absolute Poker.

    As many of our players are aware, there has been a security breach in our system that allowed unlawful access to player information that resulted in unfair play. I am writing to you today to let you know what we know so far in order to set the record straight, and to assure you of AP's commitment to player security. I am sure that this letter will not address all of the questions and concerns you may have, nor will it extinguish the heated discussion surrounding this issue. At this point, our intention is to let you know all we can disclose and to assure you of our continued efforts to keep you informed as best we can as the investigations continue.

    We deeply regret this situation has occurred. A breach in security in online poker is serious and of great concern to players and the industry worldwide, and this particular situation has been the subject of debate within the poker player community and in the media, giving rise to the creation of several websites and hundreds and hundreds of comments, opinions, and theories of what occurred – some of which are accurate, and some that are not.

    Like you, I have not been happy that during the initial stage of our investigation, AP has not been more forthcoming in providing a timely or comprehensive explanation on this matter, giving rise to anger, suspicion, and concern on the part of our valued customers. I hope that our customers can appreciate that this remains an incredibly complex and sensitive issue, and I want to give you my strongest possible assurance that we will be as forthcoming as possible on how this breach occurred and what we are doing to remedy the situation.

    What We Know and Actions We Have

    AP was notified by a customer that a possible cheating incident occurred during a recent tournament, and in response forwarded players' hand logs. This disclosure of the hand logs prompted our customers to determine that a more serious security breach had occurred. We immediately launched an internal investigation and also requested a formal audit by Gaming Associates, an acknowledged world-wide expert in audits, interactive gaming tests, and information security.

    Based upon our preliminary findings, it appears that the integrity of our poker system was compromised by a high-ranking trusted consultant employed by AP whose position gave him extraordinary access to certain security systems. As has been speculated in several online forums, this consultant devised a sophisticated scheme to manipulate internal systems to access third-party computers and accounts to view hole cards of other customers during play without their knowledge. As this consultant was aware of the details of our fraud detection process, the likelihood that the scheme would be uncovered through our normal procedures was minimized. We consider this security breach to be a horrendous and inexcusable offense.

    We will pay for all losses suffered by the affected players as soon as our audit is finished and the amounts are determined. Although we are in the process of attempting to recover all the winnings of this consultant, any unrecovered losses of affected players will be paid by Absolute Poker so that all affected persons will be made whole.

    Next Steps

    We are still investigating whether the consultant was acting alone or in concert with others, and it appears at this time that all account holders are innocent of collusion and were unaware of any wrong-doing by the consultant, who was immediately terminated. We continue to investigate this matter aggressively, and all of these preliminary findings are subject to the audits currently underway. We have recently uncovered additional accounts used by the consultant that have not been publicly reported. So as to not compromise the investigation, we are not releasing the names of these additional accounts at this time, and will contact these affected customers individually.

    The specific allegations of unlawful activity are being investigated both by AP and by the authorized authorities, including the Kahnawake Gaming Commission. We will continue to actively cooperate with these authorities in full compliance with the Regulations Concerning Interactive Gaming. In addition to our own investigation and the audit by Gaming Associates, we have also submitted to an audit by the Kahnawake Gaming Commission.

    Please be assured that we have corrected the problem that allowed the system to be unfairly manipulated. We are working furiously to increase the safeguards within our systems. While we are satisfied that our systems are secured, we realize that our security systems must be continuously monitored and enhanced.

    Without question, this incident has been unfortunate for all concerned, and we will emerge as a stronger company. I realize it will take some time and much more information for AP to re-earn the trust and confidence of our customers who are in doubt of our commitment to the highest levels of security, privacy and integrity. As we move to address and correct this situation, our valued customers have played a vital role in uncovering this scheme through various online forums and have become an active part of the solution.


    With my full sincerity, I thank you, and I promise to keep you updated as we bring this situation to a close.


    Sincerely,

    Joe Norton

  12. #30
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    This is the latest news on the Absolute scandal.
    It appears that Absolute is taking some very positive steps to prove they're sincere about clearing this up, not covering it it!
    As has been posted before, they've agreed to an independent audit. Now they've also invited one of the original super sleuths to come down and observe the operation first hand.

    Nat Arem was instrumental in breaking this story plus he has the technical knowledge required for this undertaking.

    Here's the post Nat just posted in twoplustwo.....
    ____________________________________

    Okay, in the process of speaking with a number of people involved in the AP situation over the last week, I made a few contacts who think it's a good idea to bring me down to Costa Rica for a week. I'll explain...

    First, I am not going to audit the company. I do not have the resources, expertise or power to audit the company. They have Gaming Associates there doing an audit on the admitted cheating accounts.

    Second, I am receiving compensation. I am not going to say exactly what it is right now, but I probably will later on. I will say that I am getting a fee+travel/expenses and that the fee is substantial, but not enough to compromise my judgment. The money I'm receiving has no impact on me as I make plenty of money elsewhere in the poker world. On the advice of my lawyer, I was told to ask for a certain amount and they said okay.

    Also, I plan on giving 25% of what I receive to someone else or possibly multiple people. I originally planned on giving it to the guy who sent out the file, but for reasons that I cannot explain, I may not do that. Either way, 25% of it will go to people who were instrumental in this process.

    Third, I am mainly going as a representative for 2p2, P5s and the rest of the online poker community. I am going to ask questions, view data, get explanations, etc. I will be writing a detailed "trip report"-style writeup when I return home.

    Okay, with that out of the way, here's what I need:

    1. If you have AP HHs that you feel are shady, please send them to me as a text attachment at natarem@gmail.com. I will not open word, excel, etc type files. Text only. I will probably not respond to emails to confirm receipt.
    2. If you know something that has not been posted, please email me the story at natarem@gmail.com. I will be putting together a list of things that I am going to ask and more info is always helpful.

    Also:

    1. Please do NOT send me PMs.
    2. If you have sensitive info, please do not post it in the thread.
    3. Do not send me all of your AP HHs. One of the reasons I'm asking for text is because I don't want ZIP/RAR archives of someone's entire AP HH folder. I am not going to look for cheating in your specific HHs. I want help identifying any other possible accounts, so suspect HHs only please.

    Lastly:

    1. Post any non-sensitive info questions in this thread. I will ultimately decide what I will actually ask and report back on, but teddyfbi asked for a forum to ask questions. I can do that for 2p2 and P5s.
    2. Once again, do not PM me. Use my email natarem@gmail.com to send information that is sensitive.

    I am not going with the plan of finding some smoking gun of a further cover up. I am going to ask questions, look around, etc. I will give everyone my honest opinion of what I think of AP, their management, their day-to-day operation, etc.

    Thanks,

    Nat
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  13. #31
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    Default Gambling911 releases "culprit's" e-mail address

    Gambling911 has released the alleged culprit's e-mail address, but didn't release his home address "of concerns for his safety."

    http://www.gambling911.com/Absolute-Poker-103107.html

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    Default

    To be honest, that invades all rights of a persons privacy. There are still way to many sites who are feeding off the garbage and using the negative to feed on thier own purposes. They can say they are reporting for the good but honestly what purpose does it serve to continue to publish trash. Ultimatly thats what this is now - trash! Until teh investigation is complete and the findings reported I really could care less what sites like that have to say about the situation.

    Better to write about nothing than to publish only half of the truth IMO

  15. #33
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    Default Absolute issues statement about investigation

    Absolute Poker put out a press release about it's investigation.

    Absolute Poker (AP) issued the following statement today (November 8, 2007) with respect to its on-going internal investigation of the recent security breach in its system.

    As Former Grand Chief Joe Norton, the 100% owner of AP, previously stated, Absolute Poker will, when appropriate, issue periodic updates concerning the recent security breach in its system. Because the Kahnawake Gaming Commission's (KGC's) investigation is on-going, the information provided in this interim statement is subject to the completion of the final KCG inquiry.
    Gaming Associates (GA) is in the process of auditing AP's systems as part of the KGC inquiry. AP continues to cooperate fully with these investigations.

    First and foremost, we would like to assure our players, once again, that the security breach, which resulted in unfair play, was resolved immediately after it was discovered and confirmed, and AP's sites are absolutely secure.

    At this point, all players known to have been adversely impacted by the security breach have been fully reimbursed with interest. The amount reimbursed to players by AP as a result of the security breach was approximately US $1,600,00.

    Thus far, our internal audit has uncovered the following additional information:

    a) The known period of unfair playing was approx. 40 days in length, beginning on 14 August 2007.

    b) A known perpetrator was immediately terminated upon discovery of the scheme and no longer has access to AP. AP's internal investigation continues.


    c) The system breach was the result of a recent internal software release impacting internal reporting. The breach was the result of a recent exploitable only by an authorized AP person that manipulated the internal reporting software, together with the AP gaming software. The security breach was not, therefore, the result of an external action, and no individual outside AP could exploit the breach.

    d) There is no evidence of the current or past existence of a "super-user" account. There is no player account in the AP system with the ability to see other players' hole cards.
    e) The names of the accounts known to have cheated are: potripper, graycat, steamroller, doubledrag, payup, supercard55 and romnaldo. These accounts have been closed. All players that played hands and lost funds during the period in question, against these accounts have received refunds, plus internest, for the amounts lost.

    f) All accounts associated with the perpetrating accounts are under investigation. If any other accounts are deemed to have engaged in illicit activities, AP will refund all affected players in the same manner.

    g) AP can confirm that not every hand played by the perpetrating accounts during the said period was comprimised by the tool enabling the unfair advantage. Nonetheless, AP has refunded players for the net loss resulting from every hand played against the perpetrating accounts during the affected period.

    h) All hand histories with respect to the affected period were retained by AP and were made available to both the Kahnawake Gaming Commission and the Internal auditor for detailed review.

    All registered accounts in the AP database are under investigation to ensure that there are no other comprimised accounts with links or associations to the closed accounts. If the on-going investigation determines that there are any further accounts that were used in connection with the unfair play, all affected players will be reimbursed in full, with interest.

    AP regrets the damage that has been done to its players and to its own reputation by this incident. We are absolutely focused on doing the right thing for our loyal customers, employees, consultants, and business partners, and we will continue to work with the KGC and Gaming Associates to bring this incident into the full light of day and to right any wrongs done to innocent victims of this unfair play.

    Currently, thousands of people are playing on AP both for real money and for free. AP is a safe, secure and fun place to play poker.

  16. #34
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    Default PokerNews story about Nat Arem's trip to Costa Rica to check out AP

    Nat Arem, the guy who uncovered the whole mess at AP, was sent to Costa Rica to meet with officials with AP and the Kahnawake Gaming Commission by Poker

    Pretty interesting story up about his trip. It's the first in a series ...

    http://www.pokernews.com/news/2007/1...rem-Part-1.htm

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  18. #35
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    Thanks for posting the Nat Aram story, I meant to do it but got side tracked and completely forgot.

    I'm waiting for the next installments to be printed, apparently they contain a lot more information and Nat's personal insights. Should be a fun and interesting read!
    Terry - The Pokerkeep
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  19. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaus View Post
    To be honest, that invades all rights of a persons privacy. There are still way to many sites who are feeding off the garbage and using the negative to feed on thier own purposes. They can say they are reporting for the good but honestly what purpose does it serve to continue to publish trash. Ultimatly thats what this is now - trash! Until teh investigation is complete and the findings reported I really could care less what sites like that have to say about the situation.

    Better to write about nothing than to publish only half of the truth IMO

    Gambling 911 is a rag. They're the equivalent of the National Enquirer.
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  20. #37
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    Default Kahnawake Gaming Commission investigate concluded, report issued

    Here are the principle findings of the report ...

    The main conclusions:
    1. Beginning on August 14 and continuing for six weeks, various accounts were used to view hole cards, and the person(s) responsible have been removed from any role at AP.
    2. After the activities took place, person(s) associated with AP operations deleted records and gaming logs to hamper the investigation.
    3. No evidence shows that AP sanctioned or initiated the activities.
    4. Principles of AP failed to contact the Kahnawa:ke Gaming Commission within 24 hours of becoming aware.
    5. AP reimbursed all players with interest, but anyone who still wishes to make a claim can do so within 60 days of this report.
    6. AP has taken appropriate actions to address the “vulnerability in its systems” to prevent this from happening again.
    Sanctions against Absolute:
    1. AP operations will be subject to random audits of logs and records over the next two years, the costs of which will be paid by AP. The site must also implement a continuous compliance program, and any person(s) responsible for any part of the cheating scandal must be removed from any role at AP, which the Commission feels has been done.
    2. AP must pay a fine to the Commission of $500,000 due within 60 days.
    3. AP must give a security deposit to the Commission to be held for two years which may be used to offset the cost of any future breaches of rules, laws, and regulations.
    4. AP must pay the Commission for all costs incurred through the investigation, including the audit.
    Full story here ... http://pokerati.com/2008/01/11/kahna...ng-complaints/

  21. #38
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    Default

    3. No evidence shows that AP sanctioned or initiated the activities.
    LOL

    What the hell does this statement actually mean? AP (the company) didn't sanction or initiate the cheating? Of course not! But, their top executives certainly did... AJ Green, Scott Tom = ownership and top management.

    It is good to hear they've finally publicized the results of the audit though! A small step toward reviving AP's reputation.
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  22. #39
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    Fact AP perpetrated this act through lax security measures. Any it department who would let this occur should be let go ASAP.

    greek39

  23. #40
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    This is the story that just won't go away.

    Nat Arem, the guy who brought the whole story to light, says he has been contacted by 60 minutes, and they are going to do an story on the scandal.

    You can read about it on his blog here ... http://www.natarem.com/2008/03/10/60...e-poker-story/

    Here's an interesting quote from the post ...

    In terms of agenda, I’ve been told that the goal is to “tell the story from soup to nuts.” I don’t really know if that means a negative agenda for online poker, but I get the feeling that it might. That means that this story is unlikely to be a good thing for online poker on the whole. I wish that programs like 60 Minutes would always tell the whole story (ie, get PokerStars involved, explain why some sites are secure and clean, etc), but I can’t really be sure that will happen. If I do end up on-camera, I will be sure to explain that this scandal was online poker’s “Enron” — ie, the biggest and worst scandal in the history of the industry. It is not a commonplace occurrence and people should not take it as such.

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