UK Casino Club / Casino Rewards denies a 10K payout - RESOLVED

[Caruso]

(As a prelude to this, the point of contact was a post I wrote recently about terms and conditions:

http://www.hundredpercentgambling.co...-terms-and.htm

I hope it's worth a read - unless you use Firefox, as it's completely illegible in that browser.)


I've been contacted by a player who has had a €10,000 cashout denied by UK Casino Club / Casino Rewards.

What happened: he signed up, deposited €400 and received the €100 signup bonus. He read the terms page here:

http://www.ukcasinoclub.com/promo/signup.asp

...and went ahead and played, without infringing any rules listed on that page, and racking up €10,000 by the end.

Casino Rewards denied his payout.

On enquiring why, he was told that he had violated a term which states that only bets up to 25% of the bonus value may be placed. However, that term does not exist anywhere on the bonus terms page. It's listed on the "general terms" page - and right at the bottom to boot:

http://www.ukcasinoclub.com/help/termsconditions.asp

It's inexcuseable to omit such a relevant term from the bonus terms and conditions page, restricting it to almost a footnote on the general terms page. Is it not important to know that, with a starting balance of €500, you cannot exceed a betsize of €25?

Why does Casino Rewards NOT list this vital term on the bonus terms page, choosing instead to bury it at the bottom of the general terms? And why is there not a clear link, within the listed terms, to the additional general terms?

Your thoughts on how to proceed here? I have no pull with CR. But to entrap players with these rule games is unfair and inexcuseable behaviour, and I'd like to help him out. And I know GPWA does have weight.

I would myself request that since this term is omitted from the promotion terms, the player be paid in view of his non-infringement of any of the terms listed on the relevant page, and that the page now be updated to include this vital term.


I'd like to also point out that I specifically did not put this in the Casino Rewards forum, as I consider this unethical behaviour which has a place in this section.

[casinobonusguy]

I am sure when Renee gets online she will investigate this issue.

[bb1web]

With achievement comes respect, and respect comes credibility.

if that is fair to say then I think you're coming out a bit strong, several things are possible but one thing I think that CR has earned is some credibility for all the years they have existed and had so many satisfied customers ... that it is unlikely they are intentionally choosing now, in this one matter, all of a sudden after all those years of doing otherwise, ... choosing now to start screwing people.

that wouldn't make much sense would it?

So if its fair to say that CR has not made a career out of hiding terms etc, then at least let them come in and speak their side before you toss around words like etrap because lets not forget that you yourself have already said the term was there to be found, hidden as it was.

And I know all too well I'd be told that it is my responsibility to make sure to read all relevant terms and conditions ... which yes may take some digging to find.

.......


having said that, I don't truck with this any more than you do Caruso, but its wrong to call CR such strong accusations when they have a proven record of doing otherwise.

It may be mistake, or perhaps even just mule-headed, I cannot pretend to know at this time but I don't think it was done with intent to steal money from anybody.

That just doesn't make sense to what history proves is their record for approaching customers.



Caruso I respect you and your approach but I think you're being a little bit stiff to call them like that.

[Caruso]

You're right, it may not be intentional. But they aren't the only one. Spin Palace had an issue in the recent weeks, and put the term on view, though I do not recall that a payment issue was involved.

A few years ago, Bellerock had this issue, and came out saying that "their lawyers had told them it was sufficient" with regard to the hidden term.

So this was absolutely, unequivocabley intentional on their part.

As you'll see from my above article (unless you use Firefox ), I've been doing a bit of research on the matter. There are many more. In fact, I'd been intending to post thread on just this issue.

But yes, one will see. I have to tell you though, from what I've seen of the casino's relevant correspondence to the player, they're..."categoric" on the matter.

Fair terms, my friend. I will support, and write about, Grand Privè. But it goes both ways.

[Renee]

Hey Caruso

Thanks for your passion on the topic.

Would you be so kind as to forward me the player's account number so I can look into it?

As a side note, this rule has been in place for months and was put in place after a discussion with Bryan Bailey from CasinoMeisters due to the number of complaints we were getting about another term.

As always it is the player's responsibility to read ALL the terms and conditions, not just the bonus T&Cs, and they have to actually tick a box stating that they have read all of them before they create the account.
The excuse that it was in the general T&Cs is not valid here I'm afraid. It would be like getting a loan from a bank and only reading the terms about how much you need to pay each month. Then the bank pops up the interest rate which they can do as per the T&Cs, and you say "but I didn't read that part".. It was your own responsibility to read it since it was there nonetheless.

Once you forward me over the account number I will be happy to look at the account, but if the player has broken the T&Cs I'm afraid they will remain enforced.

Cheers

[thepokerkeep]

Hi Renee

Perhaps you could have the legal department implement the term in question into the bonus terms page... this would make everything more transparent and make this type of situation less likely to happen in the future.

Why does Casino Rewards NOT list this vital term on the bonus terms page, choosing instead to bury it at the bottom of the general terms? And why is there not a clear link, within the listed terms, to the additional general terms?

[Renee]

This is the excerpt from our bonus T&Cs.. Its right there.. have a look for yourself..

OK now, if the player read all the bonus T&Cs they would have seen it..

http://www.ukcasinoclub.com/help/ter...ions.asp#Bonus

Bonus Account Terms And Conditions

Rules:
A Player's total account balance consists of a cash account balance and a bonus account balance.
A Player's bonus account cannot be cashed in, but can be used to place wagers.
A player's cash account may be cashed in provided any minimum bet requirements associated with redeemed bonuses have been satisfied.
Specific play-through requirements are indicated in the terms and conditions of each promotion.

Bonus Account Terms and Conditions include:
Bonus amounts credited to a Player's bonus account are subject to 30 times play through before they may be cashed in.
Different games played may contribute a different percentage of the play through - up to 100%, towards the required play-through.
The contributing percentages are as follows:
Slots and Parlor Games count 100% towards wagering requirements
Table Poker, Casino War and Sic Bo count 50% towards wagering requirements
Video Poker, all Blackjacks except Classic Blackjack, Craps and Baccarat count 10% towards wagering requirements
Classic Blackjack and all Roulettes count 2% towards wagering requirements
All Aces Video Poker does not count towards wagering
As the required play-through requirements are met, funds are automatically transferred from the Player's bonus account to their cash account.
Play-through is achieved when any real money wager is made. The Player can use either their bonus or their cash account.
For any wagers made, the wager is deducted from the Player's cash account. If there is no cash available, then the wager is deducted from the bonus account. This effectively means that funds in the Player's bonus account are only played if there is no cash balance.
If a Player makes a withdrawal, their bonus account is reset to zero. This means that if a Player chooses to take back the money they deposited, they will lose any bonus money they may still have remaining in their Bonus Account.
Winnings on wagers made from a Player's cash account are credited directly to their cash account. Winnings on wagers made from a Player's bonus account are credited to their bonus account.
Where crediting a Player's bonus account with winnings would result in the bonus account exceeding the size of the original bonus amount, any excess winnings are credited to the Player's cash account.
Note: This is less any automatic transfers from bonus account to cash account that had occurred.
If the casino deems that the autoplay feature has been used for the purpose of meeting bonus account wagering requirements, Casino Rewards reserves the right to void winnings.
Observations of playing patterns such as the playing for deliberate minimum risk, equal, zero margin or hedge betting may not be considered as playing in the appropriate spirit for the purposes of meeting bonus wagering requirements. Should the Casino deem that these practices have been utilized for the specific purpose of meeting wagering requirements, the casino reserves the right to withhold any cashins and/or confiscate all winnings.
The Casino reserves the right to withhold any withdrawals and/or confiscate all winnings for irregular play. 'Irregular play' includes but is not limited to any one or more of the following types of play:
Placing single bets equal to or in excess of 25% or more of the value of the bonus credited to the account prior to the play-through requirement for that bonus having been met;
Using the double-up feature to increase bet values;
Even money bets on Sic Bo, Craps and Roulette

Edit: Because I'm copying from an ordered list the numbers and formatting dont appear here.. You'll need to click the link to see that it's there in the bonus T&Cs clear as day..

[casinobonusguy]

I think ALL terms for any bonus claimed should be in a pop up window when the player claims it.If this does not happen there will be more of these issues.I check the box all the time and never read the terms but when i do claim a bonus I read to see if any games are not allowed etc.

[casinobonusguy]

Ok what was in the box the player got as a pop up for the bonus terms?I am slow so please type slow lol

[Renee]

I think ALL terms for any bonus claimed should be in a pop up window when the player claims it.If this does not happen there will be more of these issues.I check the box all the time and never read the terms but when i do claim a bonus I read to see if any games are not allowed etc.

The terms are there to read on the website, and there is also a link to them before you create the account where you have to tick the box to say you've read them, giving you another opportunity to read them before you proceed..

If there was a pop up window there would be someone else complaining that the T&Cs should be somewhere else. There is always an excuse for not reading them.

I think it's time that adults took responsibility for themselves. These people are playing at an online casino and they are not children.

I am still happy to look into the player's account, but as I mentioned, if they have broken the T&Cs, which as I have pointed out are there and clear, then the T&C will remain enforced.

[casinobonusguy]

This is prime example why I do not take n/d bonus money personally.I think I will need to look at all the terms of the bonus offers we have on our sites.I don't see any problem with 30x wager requirements or even game restrictions but beyond that most times it just leads to problems if you have a winner.

[Renee]

This is prime example why I do not take n/d bonus money personally.I think I will need to look at all the terms of the bonus offers we have on our sites.I don't see any problem with 30x wager requirements or even game restrictions but beyond that most times it just leads to problems if you have a winner.

This was not a no deposit bonus.
The player made a deposit to receive the bonus.

[casinobonusguy]

Even worst in my opinion then .If i were a depositing player and i got caught on a term like that I would not be playing again .Sometimes you need to add the human factor in too ,people make mistakes but this player put their cash in your casino and trusted you would treat them fairly .If i deposit money of my own i should be able to blow it in one spin if i want they are GAMBLING afterall.

[Renee]

The player has the option not to take the bonus.

This rule is only valid if the player takes the bonus.

Edit: I should also add that it is only valid also until the player has satisfied the wagering requirements.
Have a read of the T&Cs.

[Caruso]

My "passion" on the topic? I'm not sure how to take that.

As always it is the player's responsibility to read ALL the terms and conditions, not just the bonus T&Cs, and they have to actually tick a box stating that they have read all of them before they create the account.

The excuse that it was in the general T&Cs is not valid here I'm afraid. It would be like getting a loan from a bank and only reading the terms about how much you need to pay each month. Then the bank pops up the interest rate which they can do as per the T&Cs, and you say "but I didn't read that part".. It was your own responsibility to read it since it was there nonetheless.

Yes, I know the spiel about ticking the box. The fact is that the term is specifically discluded from the bonus page which includes a list of terms. If anyone questions this, please look at the two links I posted above.

Why? Why is the 25% term only listed at the bottom of the general terms page, when it is so vital?

I've explained the situation exactly as it is in my post. There is nothing to be gained from passing on the account number, as you've stated the casino's position already.

I consider the placing of vital information in a location where a player would never expect to look, other ostensibly complete vital information being prominently placed in its rightful place elsewhere and leading the player to logically think the information he has already read is complete, as duplicitous. And I will report as such.

This is unfair treatment. You folks (the assembled masses) complain enough when affy programmes like GP rip you off, and I support you in that (and write about it) as I support anyone who is subjected to unfair treatment. But it works both ways. This is unacceptable on the part of Casino Rewards.

Even others groups that I barely rate or don't rate at all, like the Palace group or Fortune Lounge, do actually prominantly display this max bet term on the relevant page, and not bury it at the bottom of the general terms page. Granted they surround it with a load of unsubstantiatable and anti-player waffle, but they do at least display the term in the right place.

I will give the player a link to this thread, and suggest that if he cares to, to sign up and post.

I will also at some future point be solliciting Michael's opinion on how he views this kind of rules gameplay on the part of casinos he regards well, and with full and blow-by-blow details (yeah I know, sorry Michael, but I only make your life a misery 'cos I like you .)

[casinobonusguy]

I deposit $500 and bet $25 a spin on video poker and have won $50,000 more than once on single line then i go to multiple line video poker when my bankroll is over $1500 and bet $100.00 -$125 a spin. I would be screwed every time on this rule.It is interesting to note fortune has this term but i have gotten a bonus on my deposit and immediately won big dollars gone to cashier and see i will lose my bonus if i cash out .So then i go back to wager some more and then the bonus is cleared.I have cashed out at fortune when i still had bonus money but just had then remove the bonus.
I guess the bottom line is the casino will need to decide is this player worth keeping or should they forfeit the player ,keep the money and home the player does not have a big mouth and hit the forums.All you need to do is lose one play -like me and you lose much more than 10k

[casinobonusguy]

My "passion" on the topic? I'm not sure how to take that.



Yes, I know the spiel about ticking the box. The fact is that the term is specifically discluded from the bonus page which includes a list of terms. If anyone questions this, please look at the two links I posted above.

Why? Why is the 25% term only listed at the bottom of the general terms page, when it is so vital?

I've explained the situation exactly as it is in my post. There is nothing to be gained from passing on the account number, as you've stated the casino's position already.

I consider the placing of vital information in a location where a player would never expect to look, other ostensibly complete vital information being prominently placed in its rightful place elsewhere and leading the player to logically think the information he has already read is complete, as duplicitous. And I will report as such.

This is unfair treatment. You folks (the assembled masses) complain enough when affy programmes like GP rip you off, and I support you in that (and write about it) as I support anyone who is subjected to unfair treatment. But it works both ways. This is unacceptable on the part of Casino Rewards.

Even others groups that I barely rate or don't rate at all, like the Palace group or Fortune Lounge, do actually prominantly display this max bet term on the relevant page, and not bury it at the bottom of the general terms page. Granted they surround it with a load of unsubstantiatable and anti-player waffle, but they do at least display the term in the right place.

I will give the player a link to this thread, and suggest that if he cares to, to sign up and post.

I will also at some future point be solliciting Michael's opinion on how he views this kind of rules gameplay on the part of casinos he regards well, and with full and blow-by-blow details (yeah I know, sorry Michael, but I only make your life a misery 'cos I like you .)

Caruso - It can be one of our players too so you did bring it to the right place.I think it should be in red letters right above the cashier page where you are about to make a deposit

[Renee]

My "passion" on the topic? I'm not sure how to take that.

Your "passion" on the subject is just that, your passion. You are very passionate about thing like this, and it's appreciated. But back on topic.

Yes, I know the spiel about ticking the box. The fact is that the term is specifically discluded from the bonus page which includes a list of terms. If anyone questions this, please look at the two links I posted above.

Why? Why is the 25% term only listed at the bottom of the general terms page, when it is so vital?

http://www.ukcasinoclub.com/promo/signup.asp - this is NOT the T&Cs page mate.. The T&Cs page is here: http://www.ukcasinoclub.com/help/termsconditions.asp

When you get there, there are links at the top to read each relevant section. By clicking on the Bonus Account Terms and Conditions link, you are brought to the T&Cs for the bonus. The term is right there clear as day. Have a look at the page for crying out loud. It's not at the bottom of the general terms.

The page you are referring to is a summary of the sign up bonus. It does not declare that they are the full T&Cs of the promotion.

As I said, it's the player's responsibility to read ALL of the T&Cs, not just the ones they feel like reading on the day.

I've explained the situation exactly as it is in my post. There is nothing to be gained from passing on the account number, as you've stated the casino's position already.

I consider the placing of vital information in a location where a player would never expect to look, other ostensibly complete vital information being prominently placed in its rightful place elsewhere and leading the player to logically think the information he has already read is complete, as duplicitous. And I will report as such.

If the player cannot take the initiative to consult the T&Cs page for T&Cs, I'm sorry but there is nothing anyone can do about that.. Perhaps we should have a hand that comes out of the computer, slaps them across the face and says "EXCUSE ME BUT YOU HAVEN'T READ THE T&CS. THEY CAN BE FOUND ON THE T&CS PAGE! DERR!"

?

I didn't realise that finding bonus T&Cs on the T&Cs page under "bonus T&Cs" was a place the player would never expect to find them? Come on Caruso. Common sense would suggest this is where you would find them.

This is unfair treatment. You folks (the assembled masses) complain enough when affy programmes like GP rip you off, and I support you in that (and write about it) as I support anyone who is subjected to unfair treatment. But it works both ways. This is unacceptable on the part of Casino Rewards.

Even others groups that I barely rate or don't rate at all, like the Palace group or Fortune Lounge, do actually prominantly display this max bet term on the relevant page, and not bury it at the bottom of the general terms page. Granted they surround it with a load of unsubstantiatable and anti-player waffle, but they do at least display the term in the right place.

Again, it is not buried on the bottom of the general terms page.. It is within the bonus terms and conditions on the T&Cs page.

I will give the player a link to this thread, and suggest that if he cares to, to sign up and post.

I will also at some future point be solliciting Michael's opinion on how he views this kind of rules gameplay on the part of casinos he regards well, and with full and blow-by-blow details (yeah I know, sorry Michael, but I only make your life a misery 'cos I like you .)

The player is welcome to contact me if they would like me to look into it. My guess is that since they know they have violated the T&Cs they will decide against it. I'm curious to see their gameplay though.. perhaps I'll do some digging myself to find it.

Cheers

[Renee]

I deposit $500 and bet $25 a spin on video poker and have won $50,000 more than once on single line then i go to multiple line video poker when my bankroll is over $1500 and bet $100.00 -$125 a spin. I would be screwed every time on this rule.It is interesting to note fortune has this term but i have gotten a bonus on my deposit and immediately won big dollars gone to cashier and see i will lose my bonus if i cash out .So then i go back to wager some more and then the bonus is cleared.I have cashed out at fortune when i still had bonus money but just had then remove the bonus.
I guess the bottom line is the casino will need to decide is this player worth keeping or should they forfeit the player ,keep the money and home the player does not have a big mouth and hit the forums.All you need to do is lose one play -like me and you lose much more than 10k

Judy this is all dependent on the bonus you took with the deposit. From your example you did not take a bonus, therefore the rule would not apply to you.

[Caruso]

Imagine, you deposit €400, get a €100 bonus. Balance now €500. Yum yum yum.

Now: isn't it pretty important to know that, with this €500 balance, you may not bet any bigger than €25 a hand? Isn't this VITAL information?

How many gamblers, with a €500 starting balance, restrict themselves to bet sizes up to no more than €25?

Now look here:

http://www.ukcasinoclub.com/promo/signup.asp

See a ****-load of terms, right? Game exclusions? Game weightings? Wagering requirements? All that stuff you'd expect to see? It's all there.

But where is this "25%" term? It's not there.

But it IS here - you have to scroll right to the bottom of the page:

http://www.ukcasinoclub.com/help/termsconditions.asp

And voilà, there's the term.

That term which is SO relevant to ANY gambler who takes a bonus is not listed in amongst the main terms, but squirreled away at the bottom of the general terms.

And let's be clear we're talking about gamblers here, because a savvy player like me would never get caught out like this. It's the GAMBLERS, not the bonus hunters / +EV players etc, who will get caught out here, because gambler are looking to gamble, not scan the fine print. For the GAMBLERS, this information must be displayed in the proper place, with all the other bonus information.

It's rank unacceptable to hide vital terms like this. It is even more rank unacceptable when the group is one which is, frankly, eulogised to the extent that Casino Rewards is.

The ball is rather in the player's court right now, so I'm putting my own plans on hold until he's sure what he wants to do.