UK Casino Club / Casino Rewards denies a 10K payout - RESOLVED

[universal4]

Hans,

Thank you very much for coming in here and explaining your side of the story as we really appreciate that. (And don't worry about your english as you explained the situation very well.)

I hope this situation is worked out in such a way as is aggreeable to both parties, and please keep us updated on the situation.

I also hope that long term that the terms and conditions may be updated in such a way as to reduce the possibility from players not understanding this term in the future.

Rick
Universal4

[offyourface]

I don't envy the person who has to make the decision here, but I do have a quick question. I understand the player had his deposit returned, but what about all the past players that broke this term. Did you go through and refund their deposits too since they had no shot of walking away winner if they placed a bet over 25% of their bonus amount?

That is what bothers me about this whole situation. Had this player not won, nothing would have ever come of the misunderstanding and the casino would be holding an extra 100 euro from this player even though the player was ineligible to ever cash out a winner. I question how often this happens and how much profit the casino has earned from past players and deposits who would ultimately have their cashouts denied in the event they won.

I think it's fair to say that you can't have it both ways. If your going to refund this player only because he won, then I think you need to refund all players who broke this term in the past since they were basically pissing in the wind with their deposit. Surely you would agree that keeping someones deposit when you had no intention of ever paying out on a win, regardless of the circumstances is wrong!!! Very sticky situation and I hope these brands will make the necessary adjustments to avoid these problems in the future...

[Hans]

This is an interesting point. The casino informed me by email that my 100 Euro deposit will be refunded to my credit card. But fact is: I do not own a credit card! I deposited by direct bank transfer. Even Renee wrote in this forum, that my 100 Euro deposit was refunded. But no, it wasn't yet, although the incident took place on January 28th. Renee might not have known that I do not own a credit card.

Hans

[Caruso]

I don't envy the person who has to make the decision here, but I do have a quick question. I understand the player had his deposit returned, but what about all the past players that broke this term. Did you go through and refund their deposits too since they had no shot of walking away winner if they placed a bet over 25% of their bonus amount?

This is exactly my concern as well.

I can confirm that no mention was made about deposit amounts in my emails from the player, only the bonus. I see now that I misread the CC UK initial deposit bonus - I was looking at the second one for 25%, it's the first listed after a bullet point, which is what threw me off. The initial bonus is indeed a 100% match up to €100, for a starting balance of €200.

Anyway, it doesn't change the issue other than giving the player a bit less to start playing with, but sorry for throwing out a red herring.

[Madnesz]

I think it's fair to say that you can't have it both ways. If your going to refund this player only because he won, then I think you need to refund all players who broke this term in the past since they were basically pissing in the wind with their deposit. Surely you would agree that keeping someones deposit when you had no intention of ever paying out on a win, regardless of the circumstances is wrong!!! Very sticky situation and I hope these brands will make the necessary adjustments to avoid these problems in the future...

Very good point...

In fact, there should be some constraint in the software that doesn't allow the player to bet above the 25% of the bonus, before playthrough requirements are met. This would make things a lot more clear to players, and wouldn't be too hard to program.

[JeterForHOF]

That post by Hans makes a riveting read... Seems pretty sincere, and Rewards has gone quiet (I guess it's still the middle of the night where they are).

Anyway, the Casino seems to have hid the term, or at least, made it damn hard to find. I know that I violated that condition several times, and it makes me wonder how ubiquitous of a rule it is.

Hans, through Carruso, got buried for the mistake about the original deposit amount. Will Renee get buried for falsely claiming that the player was refunded?

Looks like Rewards is getting big for their britches, and also climbed up a high tree, being held up there by legal talk. Not good.

QUESTIONS:
1. How was the bonus actually issued? Renee suggests that the player lost their own money and then requested the bonus after (as if the player wanted to give it a shot without a wagering requirement). When losing the money, the player then went to support to ask for the bonus? Or is the bonus just issued by delay?

If it is by delay, then the player deserves 10K, and it is a small price to pay for a successful group like Rewards.

2. Why was that term added? Renee mentions Casinomeister, but how is that related at all??? LOL...

[Hans]

That post by Hans makes a riveting read... Seems pretty sincere, and Rewards has gone quiet (I guess it's still the middle of the night where they are).

Anyway, the Casino seems to have hid the term, or at least, made it damn hard to find. I know that I violated that condition several times, and it makes me wonder how ubiquitous of a rule it is.

QUESTIONS:
1. How was the bonus actually issued? Renee suggests that the player lost their own money and then requested the bonus after (as if the player wanted to give it a shot without a wagering requirement). When losing the money, the player then went to support to ask for the bonus? Or is the bonus just issued by delay?

If it is by delay, then the player deserves 10K, and it is a small price to pay for a successful group like Rewards.

Here is my answer: After having made my 100 Euro deposit I immediately started the live chat to request the bonus BEFORE I started playing. I am sure that the casino can still retrieve my chat log and verify it. I asked for the bonus, before I started to play. In that chat, however, I was told that the bonus will be issued to me BY A DELAY of some hours. I then started playing with my own money and with the strategy described in my post above.

But I do not see the point, what difference it makes, whether the bonus is given to me immediately or by delay? It would not have affected the amounts of my bets.

Hans

[Caruso]

Hans, through Carruso, got buried for the mistake about the original deposit amount. Will Renee get buried for falsely claiming that the player was refunded?

I don't think he was "buried" by anyone here. People requested clarification.

[JeterForHOF]

Hans, the point is simple. Some players will fail to claim the bonus and wager their own funds, hoping to win and not have to meet any wagering requirement. After some bad luck, they are out of money --- but hey, there is way to get more money! Go to support and ask for a bonus which you "forgot" to ask for in the first place... Then, even though you have to meet a wagering requirement, you get a second chance, a second bankroll in effect.

But your description of events makes it clear that you did no such thing. You requested the bonus, but the casino itself takes time to process. So, even though you got the bonus afterwards, it makes no difference, as you weren't trying to take advantage of the casino.

Hmmm. It's simple in my head, but not easy to explain I guess!

[JeterForHOF]

I don't think he was "buried" by anyone here. People requested clarification.

ok ok... not relevant but look at Gooner's and Madsenz posts.

[Hans]

Jeter, now I see your point. Maybe I was just too naive all these years when playing in online casinos.

Back in 2007 I started a list to track my overall losses. Since then I lost a total of 87k Euro in online casinos. I deposited an average of 5k in each casino. In most cases I accepted an invitation via email, so as in this case. The UK Casino Club invited me via email to open an account and to receive a multiple signup bonus. There was a link in this email to the Signup Bonus Page, which does show a passage entitled "MULTIPLE BONUS TERMS AND CONDITIONS", but it does NOT list the disputed bonus rule no. 13. In that passage I was told that blackjack is an allowed game, but that it counts 20% only towards the play-through requirement. Well, I said, that is fine as long as blackjack is allowed, so lets start. Why should I have looked for another TERMS AND CONDITIONS page, if I already read a passage entitled "MULTIPLE BONUS TERMS AND CONDITIONS"?

At the UK Casino Club I was not able to deposit more than 100 Euro yet, because I was already lucky with my first deposit. Besides, my account was locked over night.

If this case really ends up leaving me with nothing, then I will at least have learnt one lesson: QUIT GAMBLING. Because ... why should I spend thousands of Euros and then, when I finally win, see my winnings being confiscated? That is no fun anymore. Playing should make fun, and that is possible only with a clear and not wide-spread setup of rules.

Hans

[joeyl]

You're just going to wind them up if you get emotional, and you're after a goodwill gesture here, because you did press the button to say you've read the terms.

Some folk have been banging the unfair terms andf silly player treatment drum for a long time. This is an example of why.

A goodwill gesture, and a revamp of the rules placement, even if they have to put them where they place the download button, would show the casino in a good light. Cheap at the price probably.

Curious rule anyway. Bad guys are'nt going to break this rule, only the unbeknownst.

Wait and see for a bit. See what the girl comes back with.

[casinobonusguy]

Hans
I read your thread and understand everything you said ,the process you went through and how you wager.I too am a big video poker and blackjack player.You do not strike me as a bonus hunter at all.I am all about business and bottom line so I will be waiting to see what the outcome is here for sure.I think we should allow Rewards some time to review this player issue. I personally give ZERO credit to Ecogra to me the buck stops with Rewards.

Here is my two cents as a PLAYER , I am happy to give you the place I play at and have won $xxx,xxx this year , I have the best VIP manager in the world and get paid my withdraws in money bookers in about 5 hours after my requests no matter how big or small.Also as a player i know exactly what i would do ,I would be warning everyone to avoid this group like the plague ,take their CDS and make a bonfire with them if they don't restore the account and pay out.

Judy

[Caruso]

If this case really ends up leaving me with nothing, then I will at least have learnt one lesson: QUIT GAMBLING. Because ... why should I spend thousands of Euros and then, when I finally win, see my winnings being confiscated? That is no fun anymore. Playing should make fun, and that is possible only with a clear and not wide-spread setup of rules.

Don't think about writing anything off just yet. Let's see how it goes.

[Hans]

Don't think about writing anything off just yet. Let's see how it goes.

Thanks for your advice. Anyway, it is almost midnight now in Germany. I will now go to sleep and see what the new morning brings to us.

A good-night to all of you!
Hans

[AmCan]

I find terms like that offensive, they're hidden in huge, overwhelmingly large contracts (and absent from the bonus rules) and serve the sole purpose of screwing a player out their payout. There are no such rules at Vegas or other US casinos and there shouldn't be online. If the game allows the bet to be made, the worst possible penalty should be not allowing the play to count toward a playthrough.

i keep removing more and more brands that seem to want to take a player's money and never allow a cash out. The day is coming closer where i'll have to just leave the business, rather than sending players to deal with stuff like this.

Just because you can stick a sentence into terms, doesn't mean that you should.

[Caruso]

i keep removing more and more brands that seem to want to take a player's money and never allow a cash out. The day is coming closer where i'll have to just leave the business, rather than sending players to deal with stuff like this.

That's the spirit. You wouldn't be the first - a friend of mine recently threw up his hands in disgust and quit. Pity, as he had a good site, recommended by Michael Shakleford. But he couldn't take the BS.

I personally give ZERO credit to Ecogra...

My advice would be to play at 32red / Dash / Nedplay and nowhere else.

In fact, take a look here:

http://www.32red.com/promotions/welcome-bonus.html

You see the almost identical the page format to the Rewards page?

http://www.ukcasinoclub.com/promo/signup.asp

Bonus blurb at the top, T & C at the bottom.

BUT BUT BUT:

1) There is nothing in the 32Red terms which, if taken alone, would risk any kind of funds' confiscation.

2) The additional wager requirements / game weightings page is clearly linked to, TWICE, from within that initial terms page. But note, while that second page is important, it is not vital, as it doesn't contain the "we'll take all your money if..." clause.

3) You see how absolutely clear and fair this term is, the one most MG casinos have as the "irregular betting pattern" BS waffle?

In the interests of fair gaming, there are limits on the maximum bet sizes you can place during the playthrough of the welcome bonus. Any winnings derived from bets larger than these limits before playthrough requirements for that bonus have been met will initiate a further playthrough requirement of 100 times the amount won. Click here for details.

You see how fair that is? Noone is disadvantaged with this rule. If you wager too "big", you simply have wager (a lot) more on the amount won.

This is how to write terms and conditions that are fair. Out of the entire Microgaming stable, the 32Red group is the only one, of those who have this rule, to apply it fairly in that way.

[Renee]

Hello to you all:
I am the sa(i)d player who managed to win 10 000 Euro in the UK Casino Club with a 100 Euro bonus. Sad, because now I am left with nothing, since the risk management decided to confiscate my winnings, as I was not aware of bonus rule no. 13 while playing.

I already sent private emails to Renee and Caruso explaining my situation. I will not provide any personal account information in this forum, because the Kahnawake Gaming Commission has taken the lead in this issue and I do not want them to terminate their assistance. However, there are 3 points that I wish to clarify, because they are not cited correctly here.

Point 1: I did not deposit 400 Euro as Caruso stated, but 100 Euro. I never mentioned to anyone that I deposited 400 Euro. Caruso must either have misunderstood or misinterpreted my first email. I kindly ask Caruso to look into my first email and verify that I was never wrong with this information. Fact is that I deposited 100 Euro, but the size of my deposit amount should not matter in this issue, as you will see from Point no. 2.

Point 2: Renee wrote that I wagered small amounts in the beginning and larger amounts when having received my bonus. This is true, but there is a simple reason for it: With a 100 Euro balance I can hardly place a 300 Euro bet. I did not receive the bonus right away, so I started with a balance of 100 Euro. My favorite games are Video Poker and Multi Hand Blackjack. I do not remember exactly, what I wagered in the first rounds (and I cannot retrieve this information anymore, because my casino account is locked), but I surely did NOT just wager small amounts like 1-Euro-bets. I guess that I played 5 hands with a 10 Euro bet on each hand. That is, what I would typically have done: Spending 10% of my balance on one hand. After some rounds of play I lost it all. Two hours later I was awarded the 100 Euro signup bonus. With this bonus I continued playing in a similar way. But then something occurred, which never happened to me in all my life. For 30 rounds or more, I won almost every round. And, naturally, with an increasing balance I also increased my bet on each hand. I am not the player who always places the same chip regardless of my game history. If I have a lot to spend, then I wager a lot. At that time I was not aware of bonus rule no. 13, which says that I shall not wager more than 25% of my bonus in a single bet.

I'm going to say this now that the player has made a statement..

The bets made with their own deposit were between 10-12.. The very first bet made with the bonus was 60. The argument that the player cannot make large bets with such a small bankroll is bollocks here.. The deposit amount was the same as the bonus amount received, so why would one only have bets between 10-12, whereas the first bonus bet starts at 60.. Why wouldn't the player start betting the same amount with the bonus that they were betting with their own money? And I can see the bets go up and up from there with each win.

For the record, I never said the small bets were 1. I said they were small and I was comparing them to the bets made with the bonus money.

The bonuses are credited to the casino rewards loyalty account and are claimable through there. The player could have waited for the bonus before beginning to play. If they had read the terms they would have also seen that the bonus can take up to a certain amount of time to be credited to the casino rewards account. Another thing that strikes me as strange that the player, if they claim to always read the bonus T&Cs, would not search for this or realise that its not there and think that there are more T&Cs. Reading over T&Cs so thoroughly would suggest that they know what kind of things would be in them. How and when the bonus is credited would be one if the bonus is so important, no?

As a side note, I've looked at the page again. There is a link on the bottom footer that says Terms and Conditions. The argument that it's hard to find, again not withheld here.

In any case, as I have mentioned many times previously, it is the player's responsibility to read ALL the T&Cs, not just the ones they choose to read.

I will leave this thread now as the player has said they have filed a complaint with the KGC. We will see what happens.

Cheers

[Renee]

Regarding the refund, I have asked someone from Risk Management to contact Hans regarding this.

Cheers

[casinobonusguy]

The player could have waited for the bonus before beginning to play.
Renee you are obviously NOT a gambler to say 'The player could have waited for the bonus before beginning to play.'And this is all very lame to say a player more or less should bet same with their money as they do with a bonus.Maybe he has a lucky pink elephant on his desk that says this is going to hit bet it all.This is all crazy IMO ,I know where i would be telling you to stick these terms if I were Hans.
I agree with Caruso there are so many Microgaming casinos out there that have better set up with terms and conditions.One player issue can result in hundreds of loss players.I want my players to be happy not locked out and Treated like Hans is being treated.To take 10,000 dollars pounds euros whatever from a player would be on the front page of all portals if it were any other group.If anyone else did it we would ,there was a whisper of trouble with casino 33 this week and didn't take 5 minutes for that to happen.
If casinos want to limit a players wager ability they should have this built in the software .