UK Casino Club / Casino Rewards denies a 10K payout - RESOLVED

[casinobonusguy]

@ Casinobonusguy - I saw your unspecified comments, subsequently picked up on and specified by another member, at Bailey's. I thought that unsolicited gesture demonstrated commendable integrity. Thanks - much appreciated I'm sure by the player and certainly by me.

Thank Caruso ,that whole thread is still 'weird' to me and Dave certainly couldn't think of anything else to say after lol.

[AdvancedGambler]

Posted on a advantage play forum:

"Reading that thread ......

Hey nitro still wasting your time on your little crusade?!

Just to repeat a very important part that caruso has already mentioned, but has gone under in the discussion:

With this kind of rules, the casino will never catch a professional player, because they will read and understand this terms and adapt their play acordingly! The only players that get caught in this fishnet are real gamblers!

If you look at the longterm, you will clearly see that once a player, that normaly loses 10ks of $ per year, will quit online gaming after such a story and many potential new players will stop or not start gambling online due to nightmare storys like this.

Instead of protecting the casino from profesional players, this kind of rules will cut of alot of potential future gains due to scaring of the normal gamblers. In addition, players that are not scared away, will bring their business to "fair" casinos like 32red or intercasino!

In my opinion, the casino was 100% aware of the fact, that most normal gamblers will not search the general T&C for any hidden terms that are not mentioned in the promotion T&C! They have done this, to leave a "law conform" backdoor open, to increase their profit.

Shortminded actions like this are responsible for the evil reputation of online gamgling and they have a huge negative impact on the longterm revenue of casinos and affiliates. Thats the reason that affiliates should act strongly against casinos using this kind of sneaky tricks, because its their revenue that gets cut in the longterm too.

[joeyl]

Who searches all the general terms and conditions of anything.

I bet, to the last person, every member of staff at this casino firm who have ever used a spyware checker, have not read the terms and conditions.

They checked the box and dowloaded though. The bet is a 1/100 favourite.

General terms are for legalese and belong where they are. Promotional terms must be with the promotion.

If Ecogra, along with Kahnawake, back up this firm, that's Kahnawake's new found player protection thing out the window for me. I won't be alone. They get 1 go, which they have'nt earned by the way.

Micki Oster knows how to run a casino properly, and knows these placement of terms is quite unnaceptable.

To rule anything else will be the same old same old.

Very gladly, some webmasters don't like the placement either.

It usually take the likes of Caruso a lot longer to get webmasters to understand the problem(s). Here, it's been clear cut, because the webmasters have had enough now, and are looking for themselves.

Cheers.

[pgaming]

Dam Caruso your right however disappointed I may be. I always been an advocate against such practices and now you leave me no choice. I must and will be sure all my sites carry brief cautionary note followed by a direct link to both sets of T&C’s. I will add more cautionary notes on the importance of reading the T&C’s and if Hans does not mind I will use his experience as an example.

As a webmaster anything less would be reckless IMO.

Caruso thanks!

greek39

[AmCan]

Why not just add "if you're seated in a chair while playing, all wins are void" or "use of a computer voids all play", since the point of these BS terms are used to screw people out of their wins.

Everyone i've talked to that doesn't trust online gambling says the same thing "why would they ever pay you if you win?" and i've always answered "because they want to make money off you over years, not just run you off when you win"

Well these kind of terms pretty much prove me wrong. This sort of garbage term is inserted deep into the the terms solely to reduce the likelihood of the casino actually paying out wins. Clearly they don't want to offer players a fair shake, so time to stop promoting these sorts of operators.

[pgaming]

Clearly they don't want to offer players a fair shake, so time to stop promoting these sorts of operators.

I agree to a certain extent. However, if I made it abundantly clear these unfair terms do exist and the player proceeds then the decision is theirs.

If I let this set a precedent for me I will not be promoting anyone because all brands have terms players may not agree on.

But maybe CR would consider removing the unfair term and pay the player.

greek39

[joeyl]

Compare this ASA ruling on Bet365 - the tide is turning against the wild west mentality, and the whole gamut of licensors, suppliers and operators who are kicking against, is so old.

Same as the software that can sing and dance, but can't refuse a void bet.

If this is the acceptable standard, the UIGEA is righteous, and furthermore maybe Colenel Slade should take a flamethrower to the place.

[Caruso]

This sort of garbage term is inserted deep into the the terms solely to reduce the likelihood of the casino actually paying out wins.

This is what I was...trying to say without actually saying it.

Indeed. Let's not beat about the bush.

With this kind of rules, the casino will never catch a professional player, because they will read and understand this terms and adapt their play acordingly! The only players that get caught in this fishnet are real gamblers!

This is the simple fact.

Although vastly less active in that department these days, in my "prime" I once, believe or not, took screenshots of each and every page of a site in an effort to cover myself in the event the slightly dodgy casino in question tried to snick extra terms into some unrelated page and claim I'd broken a rule (they didn't). That demonstrates slightly excessive paranoia, but you see the point.

You don't get around bonus hunters / advantage players with these games. You only hurt the gambler.

You might then ask WHY a casino would want to abuse and discourage their best customers, as it seems absurdly counter productive. An explanation may be that the revenue created by this rule, effectively the "no cashout possible" rule, makes the lost repeat customers and bad will all worthwhile. I daresay the casino has done its sums. If it's a casino with a constant stream of new customers and little loyalty / repeat business, this may be profitable (If it's a 32Red-type casino, whose focus is customer loyalty, this would never work). I can't think of any other reason they could have.

But whatever the casino rationale, to write rules which target and disadvantage the average negative expectation gambler demonstrates a lamentable business ethic.

General terms are for legalese and belong where they are.

And by and large this fact is not generally abused. Those casinos, like the Palace Group, that previously listed this max bet rule in the general terms (and in even more hidden fashion than CR, in fact) do now also include it in the promo terms.

Look again how the 32Red terms handles this:

• In the interests of fair gaming, players may not place individual bets equal to or in excess of 25% or more of the value of the bonus credited to their account until such time as the playthrough requirements for that bonus have been met.

• Any winnings derived from bets placed to the value of 25% or more of the bonus before playthrough requirements for that bonus have been met will initiate a further playthrough requirement of 100 times the amount won.

This gives the absolute lie to any suggestion that it's "hard" to write effective and fair terms. This way, you wouldn't even need a software fix to restrict bets.

1) The max bet rule is listed where it should be.

2) The application of a 100X additional wagering requirement on those winnings that result from the bets greater than 25%, and not a complete, unilateral confiscation of all winnings, is an absolutely fair way to deal with the bet size infraction.

And it's just two lines of text. Don't anyone tell me that's difficult.

I'm still hopeful at Casino Rewards will rethink this and bend a little to the player. His propsals, half payment or additional €300,000 wagering penalty, are very fair in my opinion.

[FictionNet]

I don't think the player should accept half payment or any playthrough requirements. I really think he should get the full whack. Plus a bit. With no strings attached.

[casinobonusguy]

I think he should get all not half .I look at this from a business point of view ,I want to send my traffic to the casinos that will be best at retention to keep my players happy month after month.We rank for many high roller terms and I am a professional gambler myself ,I have a site for a few years that are just for players like myself.I cannot in good business sense partner up with ANY casinos who have that sort of rubbish in their terms and I am not pointing the finger just at rewards.I will be spending my time looking at the player terms this week and having some discussions with my affiliate managers .There has to be at least 10 good casinos online and im fully prepared to dump the bad ones and just have a few properties on my network.
Thanks to AMCAN who is not afraid to take the sugar coating off

Judy

[pgaming]

I carry the same opinion the player should be paid the total winnings. IMO he broke no terms as they were presented on one page with no link directing him to another.

I can't thank everyone enough I had no idea such terms ever existed.

greek39

[nitro]

With this kind of rules, the casino will never catch a professional player, because they will read and understand this terms and adapt their play acordingly!

Fully agree on that advancedgambler. They should just look at the style of play because it should be not that hard to distinguish an AP from a normal gambler instead of messing around with the bonus terms.

This would straight out the T&Cs and if the money stops to flow i guess 99% of APs would just leave and the entire "infrastucture" would be crushed. With the remaining 1-2% that are still interested despite receiving nothing in return for a while it would be possible to recreate this world from the scratch because the optimal arrangement is actually mutually benefical and the raison d'etre of advantage players would be to stabilize the bonus concept.

[nitro]

How do you defraud a bookmaker unless you're in a position to directly influence a specific outcome?

Non-withdrawable free bets have no physical substance and no value, so if you're awarded one, you effectively have nothing, as it barely registers in law that you've gained anything. The free bet doesn't even realise its own value if the bet wins due to the stake usually being SNR.

Also, there's no legal requirement to identify yourself, accurately or otherwise, to any UK bookmaker for gambling purposes. Either they take your money and accept your bet, with the understanding they pay out your winnings if the bet wins, or they don't take your money and accept your bet.

If you gain free bets through ID misrepresentation, then in law, what have you received for it to be called fraud?

This is the kind of people you fight for pgaming, fictionnet, casinobonusguy & Co.

[nitro]

It usually take the likes of Caruso a lot longer to get webmasters to understand the problem(s)...

It usually take the likes like joeyl a lot longer to get that the ones like carusos are responsible for the problem that the T&Cs and bonuses look like crap.

[thepokerkeep]

It usually take the likes like joeyl a lot longer to get that the ones like carusos are responsible for the problem that the T&Cs and bonuses look like crap.

What????? Are you blaming Caruso for the T&C problems?

[pgaming]

This is the kind of people you fight for pgaming, fictionnet, casinobonusguy & Co.

Mentioned me and others what was that?

greek39

[nitro]

What????? Are you blaming Caruso for the T&C problems?

The ones like yokspot aka caruso will be responsible that even the slot bonuses will be turned to crap if they continue because the T&Cs are the response to their actions.

[thepokerkeep]

The ones like yokspot aka caruso will be responsible that even the slot bonuses will be turned to crap if they continue because the T&Cs are the response to their actions.

So you think it's fair that casinos hide the terms and then refuse to pay out winnings by claiming bonus abuse?

[joeyl]

I don't defend fraudsters Nitro. Never have. Mixing up advantage players with fraudsters was propogated by a KGC ruling. Catania wrote the rules, he should have said something then. He's now an independent director at Ecogra by the way. Great.

Thanks to AMCAN who is not afraid to take the sugar coating off

Judy

One has to i'm afraid. Sugarcoat it I mean. One has to post within the boundaries set down by of the owner of the site.

Let's have it right. Caruso's shite at it ;

So yes, it would be helpful if more affs checked the terms, spoke up for the player, not sugarcoat it, and such things, yes, good, cheers.

[nitro]

There isn't a single "serious" advantage player joeyl who is around longer than a year and isn't using multiple account techniques of some sort. People here or on Casinomeister are usually not aware of it because they have no clue how the scene operates. Besides that it makes a big difference if there are 500 APs around or 250.000 or so....