Vista Gaming no longer accepting UK customers

[Sherlock]

if they will be happy to break the law and stick 2 fingers up at a goverment, any goverment not just UK, then I am sure they won't care about cheating affiliates if they want to

This is really not my experience. Overall the illegal or not fully licensed operators, esp. in US area, are much better that the ones who comply with every nonsense. I trust businesses that can distinguish between p2p trust and trust to states. Absolutely the worst companies to work with are PLCs, that are also the most regulated (and unfortunately the holders of biggest brands).

Also I see how regulation leads to much worse service. E.g. Pinnacle which had just some funny licence from Curacao and operated everywhere, were always outstanding. They honored even bad lines etc. Not anymore. Overregulated operators sometimes provide much worse odds (compare bwin.com vs. bwin.fr), but for sure the taxes are something that affiliates participate in. Regulation also brought problems with payments: there is a thread how Tipico, that paid me always on 1st day of month had problem to pay me now to bank account for 6 months. Similar problems brought regulation to me with Unibet.fr and other bookies.

[colin3005]

Well I can just say as I find.
I have sent a lot of customers to vista, not made anything from them yet, and certainly won't now as they can't play there any more, but more to the point they shouldn't have been able to in the first place, and I could have sent them elsewhere.

As for Vista being reputable and honest, perhaps the rep can explain why, all of a sudden, I cannot login to my affiliate account, yet it was fine the other day?

Also - the site is geo blocked from the uk already, so not even to the timescale originally said, so even less time for people to get their money.

[MichaelCorfman]

So as an update, these refuse to give me any information on the UK license, and as there is none listed on the UKGC site, I think its safe to say they don't have one and have therefore been breaking the law since 2014.

With that in mind, presumably they will be removed as a sponsor here as they break the first term?

LAWFUL BUSINESS CONDUCT AND REGULATORY COMPLIANCE

Sponsor agrees that both Sponsor and the companies Sponsor represents (collectively “Sponsor Companies”) will abide by all laws, regulations, and applicable license requirements of the jurisdictions within which they operate. If licenses are required to conduct the business of the Sponsor Companies within said jurisdictions, then the Sponsor agrees to provide evidence of said licenses upon request.

I would like to clarify the meaning of the referenced term in the code of conduct. While I can appreciate it is not completely clear, the term refers to the jurisdictions within which and operator is based. We require that operators run their business in a legal manner in the jurisdiction where they are located, and that they comply with all local laws that are applicable to them within that jurisdiction. The first point of the code of conduct was never intended to apply to all of the jurisdictions from which an operator accepts players. Even many of the larger well-established operators licensed in many jurisdictions frequently accept players from grey-market areas where the local authorities would claim they are operating without proper licenses, even when it is not the practice in that jurisdiction to attempt to stop them.

I'd also like to clarify that I view Vista Gaming's commitment made earlier in this thread as critical:

Thank you for your concern regarding our players’ situation.

.... we can assure every player with funds available for withdrawal that (they) will be able to request any monies due to them, even if they miss the 7 day deadline.

We will be following up with Vista Gaming to ensure we agree the right interactions are happening with players as they have promised.

I do agree it is very unfortunate that Vista Gaming felt compelled to make a decision to rapidly exit the UK gaming market. But I think it is important to recognize that rapid action is sometimes required when a program has operated in accordance with the legal regulations where they are based, but not in accordance with legal regulations where their players are based. I don't view rapid action as being a sign of not being reputable, but of responding as necessary to a situation that is most likely not under their direct control. We do try to provide information so affiliates know the risks of working with an operator in specific jurisdictions, and for reasons like this we now always identify whether a program is licensed in the UK so that folks for whom that is a consideration can make an informed decision.

I did think this whole question was an interesting one. That is the reason I started the following poll this past week as the poll of the week:

Do you promote only UK licensed sites to UK residents?

Michael

[MichaelCorfman]

As for Vista being reputable and honest, perhaps the rep can explain why, all of a sudden, I cannot login to my affiliate account, yet it was fine the other day?

Also - the site is geo blocked from the uk already, so not even to the timescale originally said, so even less time for people to get their money.

I will make sure we contact Vista Gaming with regard to the current status of your affiliate account and to ensure their handling of your account complies with our code of conduct. We will also verify that appropriate procedures are in place so players from the UK are able to obtain funds that belong to them.

Michael

[thebookiesoffers]

I would like to clarify the meaning of the referenced term in the code of conduct. While I can appreciate it is not completely clear, the term refers to the jurisdictions within which and operator is based. We require that operators run their business in a legal manner in the jurisdiction where they are located, and that they comply with all local laws that are applicable to them within that jurisdiction. The first point of the code of conduct was never intended to apply to all of the jurisdictions from which an operator accepts players. Even many of the larger well-established operators licensed in many jurisdictions frequently accept players from grey-market areas where the local authorities would claim they are operating without proper licenses, even when it is not the practice in that jurisdiction to attempt to stop them.

I'd also like to clarify that I view Vista Gaming's commitment made earlier in this thread as critical:



We will be following up with Vista Gaming to ensure we agree the right interactions are happening with players as they have promised.

I do agree it is very unfortunate that Vista Gaming felt compelled to make a decision to rapidly exit the UK gaming market. But I think it is important to recognize that rapid action is sometimes required when a program has operated in accordance with the legal regulations where they are based, but not in accordance with legal regulations where their players are based. I don't view rapid action as being a sign of not being reputable, but of responding as necessary to a situation that is most likely not under their direct control. We do try to provide information so affiliates know the risks of working with an operator in specific jurisdictions, and for reasons like this we now always identify whether a program is licensed in the UK so that folks for whom that is a consideration can make an informed decision.

I did think this whole question was an interesting one. That is the reason I started the following poll this past week as the poll of the week:

Do you promote only UK licensed sites to UK residents?

Michael

So basically it means you don't care if they are dodgy and act illegally as long as they pay you sponsor money. very ethical. hows the hacking case going on as well by the way, you know, the case where you continue to take sponsor money from companies that are still active on illegally hacked websites

side note, dont wet your pants rick, this is a one off post

[colin3005]

I would like to clarify the meaning of the referenced term in the code of conduct. While I can appreciate it is not completely clear, the term refers to the jurisdictions within which and operator is based. We require that operators run their business in a legal manner in the jurisdiction where they are located, and that they comply with all local laws that are applicable to them within that jurisdiction. The first point of the code of conduct was never intended to apply to all of the jurisdictions from which an operator accepts players. Even many of the larger well-established operators licensed in many jurisdictions frequently accept players from grey-market areas where the local authorities would claim they are operating without proper licenses, even when it is not the practice in that jurisdiction to attempt to stop them.

I'm sorry but thats like saying, base yourself somewhere that doesn't have any real laws, like say, Curacao (where Vistagaming are based) and you can do as you like. Everyone knows the licenses given by Curacao aren't worth the paper they are written on. In the UK, it isn't a grey market area, its extremely black and white now. You have a UKGC issued license you can operate here, you don't you can't.

I'd also like to clarify that I view Vista Gaming's commitment made earlier in this thread as critical:

We will be following up with Vista Gaming to ensure we agree the right interactions are happening with players as they have promised.

I as a player have not had one bit of email from them regarding the changes, and apparently it only showed if you logged into your account, and then only on one part of the 'my account' screen. Now no one can even access the website from the UK.
What should have happened from any decent casino would have been they would email all customers saying you have £xx in your account, we will be closing to UK customers on xx.xx.xxxx please login and withdraw your balance before that point.
Not put a small message (which not everyone can see) on a certain part of the account screen, no email sent, and then close the site before the date they originally gave as being when they had to withdraw by.

I do agree it is very unfortunate that Vista Gaming felt compelled to make a decision to rapidly exit the UK gaming market. But I think it is important to recognize that rapid action is sometimes required when a program has operated in accordance with the legal regulations where they are based, but not in accordance with legal regulations where their players are based. I don't view rapid action as being a sign of not being reputable, but of responding as necessary to a situation that is most likely not under their direct control.

They have been operating illegally since 2014, I don't really think they haven't had enough opportunity to pull out the UK without only giving a weeks notice, right in the middle of the main holiday period of the year when many people are probably still unaware that their account has been closed.

We do try to provide information so affiliates know the risks of working with an operator in specific jurisdictions, and for reasons like this we now always identify whether a program is licensed in the UK so that folks for whom that is a consideration can make an informed decision.

I did think this whole question was an interesting one. That is the reason I started the following poll this past week as the poll of the week:

Do you promote only UK licensed sites to UK residents?

Michael

As regards to your PM's, the one you sent thinking I was part of Vista was telling.
I'm not sure why you should be careful about jumping in to defend an affiliate program? The either need defending or they don't. If the defence is justified then you shouldn't need to be careful at all, if its not and you are doing it to protect your revenue then I can see why you would say that.

I am also concerned that, as opposed to you being unbiased and, I thought here to help affiliates, you offer to review and offer feedback on any post Vistagaming would make on here before they post it. Why would you need to do that unless you think they might post something that doesn't look good for them? You also talk about a strategy, why have a strategy with you and them? Not sure why you feel the need to team up against an affiliate, surely letting them post what they want would be the best idea? Your pm has raised serious questions to me regarding your impartiality in matters such as this I'm afraid.

[Sherlock]

I'm sorry but thats like saying, base yourself somewhere that doesn't have any real laws, like say, Curacao (where Vistagaming are based) and you can do as you like. Everyone knows the licenses given by Curacao aren't worth the paper they are written on. In the UK, it isn't a grey market area, its extremely black and white now. You have a UKGC issued license you can operate here, you don't you can't.

Then it is even more absurd demand. It is a nonsense to ask a forum from country A, that it should check if company from country B is in line with law of all countries around the world that have all kind of crazy laws.

If this is applied then no UK bookie can not be a sponsor here, becaue they breach or breached laws of many countries incl. EU countries.

[-Shay-]

I'm sorry but thats like saying, base yourself somewhere that doesn't have any real laws, like say, Curacao (where Vistagaming are based) and you can do as you like. Everyone knows the licenses given by Curacao aren't worth the paper they are written on. In the UK, it isn't a grey market area, its extremely black and white now. You have a UKGC issued license you can operate here, you don't you can't.



I as a player have not had one bit of email from them regarding the changes, and apparently it only showed if you logged into your account, and then only on one part of the 'my account' screen. Now no one can even access the website from the UK.
What should have happened from any decent casino would have been they would email all customers saying you have £xx in your account, we will be closing to UK customers on xx.xx.xxxx please login and withdraw your balance before that point.
Not put a small message (which not everyone can see) on a certain part of the account screen, no email sent, and then close the site before the date they originally gave as being when they had to withdraw by.



They have been operating illegally since 2014, I don't really think they haven't had enough opportunity to pull out the UK without only giving a weeks notice, right in the middle of the main holiday period of the year when many people are probably still unaware that their account has been closed.



As regards to your PM's, the one you sent thinking I was part of Vista was telling.
I'm not sure why you should be careful about jumping in to defend an affiliate program? The either need defending or they don't. If the defence is justified then you shouldn't need to be careful at all, if its not and you are doing it to protect your revenue then I can see why you would say that.

I am also concerned that, as opposed to you being unbiased and, I thought here to help affiliates, you offer to review and offer feedback on any post Vistagaming would make on here before they post it. Why would you need to do that unless you think they might post something that doesn't look good for them? You also talk about a strategy, why have a strategy with you and them? Not sure why you feel the need to team up against an affiliate, surely letting them post what they want would be the best idea? Your pm has raised serious questions to me regarding your impartiality in matters such as this I'm afraid.

So let me get this straight. You have in your possession a PM sent from Michael to you where he thought you were a Vista Gaming Rep?

[MichaelCorfman]

So let me get this straight. You have in your possession a PM sent from Michael to you where he thought you were a Vista Gaming Rep?

Yes, I received a pm from colin3005 pointing out this thread and asking if I would post in it. I read the pm on my cell phone, and incorrectly assumed it was from a representative of Vista Gaming when I replied to the pm. It is common for me to receive a pm from an affiliate program if they feel they are being inappropriately criticized, and relatively rare for me to receive a pm from an affiliate asking me to comment in a thread. I almost always reply with a suggestion that the program should post a more detailed response. And sometimes I do offer to provide feedback if I think there are specific points that I program should address in a response in order to make sure the response does not omit details I expect affiliates will want a response to cover. That was the case here. Quoting from the PM messages I sent to colin3005:

... it would be good for you to post how you will be handling the current balances of UK players. There seems to be some uncertainty on that front, and I think it is important that you provide better clarity on that front in a forum post... I am very happy to review and provide you feedback on a proposed post on that front. I think there are specific things you need to accomplish in such a post, and so would welcome being able to let you know if there are areas I think a proposed post could be improved.

I'd like to elaborate a little more. I mistakenly was thinking you were a representative if Vista Gaming, and I have been meaning to contact them about clarifying how they will interact with UK players. If they treat them properly, which I believe they will based on all of my past interactions with them, then I believe it is very important that they make a post that is very clear on that point, and that answers all of the questions that need to be answered in such a post. Mistakenly thinking you were a representative of theirs, my objective was to make sure that happened...

I meant that sincerely. I do think it is important that Vista Gaming have a strategy about how they will handle UK players. And I think it is appropriate that the strategy be shared in enough detail that affiliates are comfortable the situation will be handled in an ethical fashion. I believe this is especially important in a context like the present one where a change was made much more rapidly than anyone, including Vista Gaming, would have liked. This sort of rapid change is typically done under tremendous pressure and without adequate advance planning, and that combination frequently creates real customer service issues, such as those raised in this thread, even when intentions are good.

In terms of my being careful what I say about affiliate programs, that's true. My definite preference is for others to point out their perspectives and make the points that should be made rather than for me to do so in an environment where the typical response on the part of some participants here is to attack what I say on the basis that I am blinded by a conflict of interest. In this thread, for example, Sherlock has already expressed the perspective I have in this post:

Then it is even more absurd demand. It is a nonsense to ask a forum from country A, that it should check if company from country B is in line with law of all countries around the world that have all kind of crazy laws.

If this is applied then no UK bookie can not be a sponsor here, because they breach or breached laws of many countries incl. EU countries.

Our interpretation of the first point within the GPWA code of conduct has always been the same. And the other interpretation that it should apply to the player jurisdictions is clearly unworkable for the reasons explained by Sherlock. Here is the material I sent to colin3005 on that topic in the two pm messages I sent to him:

In my response I will explain the meaning of the first point in the GPWA code of conduct, and why Vista Gaming complies with the first term of the code of conduct. So you know, when we refer the operating legally in the jurisdiction within which an operator does business, we mean the location where the operator is based and operates out of, and not the jurisdictions from which they accept players.

... Secondly, just to be clearer to you, throughout the history of the online gambling industry many operators considered to be reputable have taken players from jurisdictions where the government officials in the player jurisdiction would view the operator as unlicensed and operating outside the law of the jurisdiction. It is generally well accepted and understood by affiliates with longevity in the industry that even many operators that pay attention to licensing requirements frequently operate in grey markets as long as they do not believe they will actually be prosecuted for doing so. And it is common for such operators to make rapid decisions to exit markets when they determine the legal risk has increased.

In the case of Vista Gaming we were always very clear that they were not licensed in the UK, and as such they were never a good operation to promote within the UK by affiliates that wanted to abide by UK rules and regulations. Many affiliates make that type of choice. For example, virtually every affiliate who has made the choice to promote online gambling sites within the US has made that choice.

Michael

[colin3005]

Michael

I have no wish to argue with you on this, and I do intend to reply properly to your pm later tonight or tomorrow when I have time to do so properly, but I wouldn't have published your PM on here as it is, as the title suggests, a private message. However if I had I wouldn't have selectively posted only a part of it. As an example, the missing first 10 words from the first quote you made, completely changes the perspective of that statement in my view.

I'm still confused why you feel the need to give feedback on any affiliates response to any query though, why not let them post then answer any further questions that may arise.

Do you offer to give affiliates feedback before they post something too or is that just for the sponsors?

[MichaelCorfman]

Michael

I have no wish to argue with you on this, and I do intend to reply properly to your pm later tonight or tomorrow when I have time to do so properly, but I wouldn't have published your PM on here as it is, as the title suggests, a private message. However if I had I wouldn't have selectively posted only a part of it. As an example, the missing first 10 words from the first quote you made, completely changes the perspective of that statement in my view.

I'm still confused why you feel the need to give feedback on any affiliates response to any query though, why not let them post then answer any further questions that may arise.

Do you offer to give affiliates feedback before they post something too or is that just for the sponsors?

I have no wish to argue with you either. Although I do have a different view of the situation here, some of which I wanted to explain in this thread, and some of which I have explained in a further pm I have just sent to you. I would not have expected you to post the pm message I sent to you, but when you specifically mentioned some aspects of it in this forum thread, I felt it was important to provide others some context around what was being referenced. As you indicate, I did not post the whole message, but I do believe what I quoted accurately represented the perspective I had when I made the statement. Hopefully when you read the pm message I just sent you that provides further clarification of my objectives, you will also agree that is the case.

In terms of posts made by affiliate programs, there are very few instances where posts are made at my request, probably equally split between sponsor and non-sponsor programs. If I specifically ask an affiliate program to post in the forum it is because I think it is important that they provide clarification of some matter, and I always offer to give feedback about whether their response has fully addressed the issue at hand. I have had interactions with affiliates and others as well. The most common situation is where an affiliate wants to make a post on some topic, but is not sure the best way to go about it or if they would be crossing some boundary around proper forum etiquette.

Anyway, the truly important issue here is that both players and affiliates are treated fairly in the wake of Vista Gaming having had to very rapidly exit the UK marketplace. My focus will be on our monitoring the situation carefully to make sure that is indeed what happens.

Michael

[-Shay-]

I have no wish to argue with you either. Although I do have a different view of the situation here, some of which I wanted to explain in this thread, and some of which I have explained in a further pm I have just sent to you. I would not have expected you to post the pm message I sent to you, but when you specifically mentioned some aspects of it in this forum thread, I felt it was important to provide others some context around what was being referenced. As you indicate, I did not post the whole message, but I do believe what I quoted accurately represented the perspective I had when I made the statement. Hopefully when you read the pm message I just sent you that provides further clarification of my objectives, you will also agree that is the case.

In terms of posts made by affiliate programs, there are very few instances where posts are made at my request, probably equally split between sponsor and non-sponsor programs. If I specifically ask an affiliate program to post in the forum it is because I think it is important that they provide clarification of some matter, and I always offer to give feedback about whether their response has fully addressed the issue at hand. I have had interactions with affiliates and others as well. The most common situation is where an affiliate wants to make a post on some topic, but is not sure the best way to go about it or if they would be crossing some boundary around proper forum etiquette.

Anyway, the truly important issue here is that both players and affiliates are treated fairly in the wake of Vista Gaming having had to very rapidly exit the UK marketplace. My focus will be on our monitoring the situation carefully to make sure that is indeed what happens.

Michael

If only more time were spent helping affiliates in the forums rather than programs behind the scenes...

[colin3005]

ok, so the rep has ignored everything on here, despite Michael asking them to comment.
I have had no response at all to my email asking why my affiliate account has been blocked.
They won't supply me with any details about my player account to check there is no money to be withdrawn, despite me asking for a statement on more than one occasion.

But of course they are completely trustworthy!

[-Shay-]

ok, so the rep has ignored everything on here, despite Michael asking them to comment.
I have had no response at all to my email asking why my affiliate account has been blocked.
They won't supply me with any details about my player account to check there is no money to be withdrawn, despite me asking for a statement on more than one occasion.

But of course they are completely trustworthy!

Is your affiliate account still unblocked and have you received any details about your players yet?

[colin3005]

Is your affiliate account still unblocked and have you received any details about your players yet?

not heard a thing from them, still can't login and customer service refuse to give me any details about anything, including my own personal player account.

[Anthony]

I am in communication with Vista Gaming. I need to get colin3005's permission to discuss his account info, then I will get you the info you need and post an update here.

[colin3005]

I am in communication with Vista Gaming. I need to get colin3005's permission to discuss his account info, then I will get you the info you need and post an update here.

Before I give the permission, just to be clear, they have locked my affiliate account, wont tell me why, but will tell you?
I have asked for a statement of my personal player account, they won't give me it, but will give one to you?
They have been asked by Michael to provide more information in this thread, they haven't, but will speak to you privately?

Why exactly will they discuss all these with you but not with me or in public, what do they have to hide?

[VGAlady]

Hi Colin,

Your issue has been escalated to myself and I would like to take this opportunity to clarify all the issues that you have raised with regard to your affiliate account and Vista Gaming leaving the UK player market.

Vista Gaming Affiliates has always been transparent in the fact that the gaming license we hold is a Curacao license. We believe this is clear to all affiliates that sign up for our affiliate program and we also believe that any affiliate that signs up to our program that is concerned about the licenses we hold would check this and be clear on the fact. We are always happy to answer any questions our affiliates may have and always answer transparently. We have never claimed to hold a UK license.

I can only apologize for the abrupt nature of Vista Gaming leaving the UK market, but this was due to factors beyond our control and we had no alternative but to take the action that we took. We prioritized notifications by first contacting our affiliates to request that they stop sending UK based traffic and we then informed all players with funds in their accounts of the upcoming closure of their accounts.

We have made sure all payouts are processed promptly. Even though all UK player accounts are now closed, all remaining players are still able to contact our support email address and request any monies that are still owed to them. This will continue to be an option until all players have requested payouts. Our representatives have explained to you on more than one occasion through private emails that all players will be paid and that all affiliates will receive their commissions. No balances will be left pending.

Your affiliate account is enabled and you can access all your information to see players’ statistics and all relevant information within your account. I apologize there was a brief period of time where it was not accessible to you during the turmoil of the current transition. Please note that your two (2) player accounts at Vegas Crest casino were free play accounts (non-funded) and therefore have been closed. As there had been no deposits made to the accounts, there was no cash balance to be requested, so we did not send you a notification email for those player accounts.

I have tried repeatedly to contact you personally but the contact phone number that you provided on your affiliate account repeatedly gives an error that the number is not valid.

I apologize for any misunderstanding that may have been caused due to our exit of the UK market and trust that this reply will put your mind at ease and answer any of the questions that you may have had.

Kind regards,

Fabiola Olaso
VistaGaming Marketing Director

[colin3005]

Hiya Fabiola thanks for the reply.
I'm not sure anyone couldn't have explained this to me before now, and it would have saved a lot of trouble.
I can confirm my affiliate account is not open again, I don't believe it was unavailable accidentally though, as I haven't seen anyone else mention theirs was closed, and just so happened to be blocked when I made this post.
You may answer most questions from affiliates, yet you haven't answered why you were accepting UK players without a UK license? Your support also refused to give me your Curacao license number, actually refused rather than not replying as they usually did when they didn't want to answer a question I asked. I wouldn't say that was answering transparently, would you?
Thank you for your reply

[Redbush54]

you haven't answered why you were accepting UK players without a UK license?

I'm having a hard time understanding why you keep pushing about the UK license. When Vista Gaming was announced as sponsors.....https://www.gpwa.org/forum/welcome-v...t=Vista+Gaming ....it was plainly noted.....

"A little about the program:Vista Gaming represents three of the most recognized and respected online bingo brands: CyberBingo.com, BingoFest.com and BingoSKY.com. These brands also offer casino games including video poker, slots, and table games, and players from around the world are accepted, including American players. As a new affiliate you’ll earn an astonishing 50% commission on all new players brought within the first three months from when you join the program. You’ll make lifetime revenue from all the players you refer. Place Vista Gaming’s marketing materials on your website and start earning today. They do accept U.S. players."

I have never known of a program that accepted U.S. players to have a UK license. In my opinion they did what every other program did out there without a UK license......they pushed their brands until they got the "Letter" from the UK Gaming Commission.